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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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BurnNote said:
No, the executed professor was greed. He was embezzling and thereby endangering the army of Stirland. Wilhelmina has never done anything problematic because of greed. But she did initially place her sons in commanding positions of the EIC, and they wanted to use that to milk Stirland during the campaign. She just succeeded in her loyalty (and intelligence) roll, and noped it.

I don't have the WOG post (invoking the name of pickle @picklepikkl), but I'm pretty sure it was there. It was a discussion of what the different advisors Divided Loyalties were.
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It wasn't a WoG post, it was a rundown post by @vsh that got a QM response:
vsh said:
Okay, guys, I think we need to spend some time with Wilhelmina this turn. That's because we have no idea of her motivation. Every other advisor in quest has some motivation out of chargen: professor had Avarice, Gustav has Vainglory, Anton has (probably) Nepotism, we and Schulz have Sleeper agent, Kasmir has Zealotry, Julia and engineer guy have Inspiration. But we have no idea about Wilhelmina's motivation. She may be an exception but she could also be, say, another agent or even chaos corrupted.
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BoneyM said:
Anton was supposed to be incompetent, but he keeps rolling crits. He started with a 4 in diplomacy! I spent time worrying about whether I was unduly crippling Stirland by having a deadweight Chancellor that couldn't be axed without alienating vassals! This turn isn't even the first time he's rolled a natural 100.
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Seventeen said:
Wilhelmina is Nepotism. She mentions putting her sons in charge of things.
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I agree that Wilhelmina was the Nepotistic one, at least until the dice went against her and her sons turned out to be terrible at business and that was a bridge too far for her.
BoneyM said:
Wilhelmina's first to respond. "I want to recreate the League," she says. "A state-sanctioned corporate entity, with ownership divided between myself and Stirland. All I need is your signature, the papers we've seized, and an initial capital injection that the League's assets will more than cover."

"Done," Van Hal says instantly. "Will this interfere with your work as Steward?"

"The day-to-day work will be taken care of by my sons," she says. "And since Stirland will be part-owner, what enriches the corporation will enrich Stirland."
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BoneyM said:
"How's things with your boys?" you ask gently.

She frowns, then sighs. "Off managing deals with Worden herders. Hopefully it'll teach them some humility." She sighs again, then falls quiet for a moment, as she considers whether to continue. "I kept my sons well clear of my work with Van Hal," she finally says, "thinking that it was going to lead to an early death for both of us, like it did my husband. Instead, there's all of this. But they've got no loyalty to him. A whiff of a burgher lifestyle and suddenly they see the Hochschilds as the next Great Merchant House and are in a hurry to get there, no matter how many sheep they have to flay in the process. Gods know what they learned at university, because it sure wasn't economics."
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BoneyM said:
In other news, tensions are higher than ever in the Hochschild household as Wilhelmina chooses keeping the army amply supplied over outrageous profits; the EIC is currently operating practically at cost, to the protest of absolutely none of its shareholders. There'll be time enough for profit after the war is over, the three of you feel - but Wilhelmina's sons definitely do not feel the same way.
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Also, Shallyan's believe their purpose is to "relieve suffering". It's very easy to justify sticking a knife in someone as "relieving suffering", although I suspect Shallya gives her priests who stretch that argument too far a Stern Look, and maybe nudges them over to Ranald or something.
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As good @Mopman43 just stated, "relieving suffering" can be interpreted in a few ways. Due to them being divinely tasked to fight The Unclean One and their servants, an argument could easily be made that everyone inflicted by disease and has a chance to spread it, is an unwitting accomplice.
The solution is to purge the area with fire.
 
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Saidoro said:
As much as I love the reference (and indeed, was going to post about the same thing as you did until I saw your post), on further thought rings of invisibility may be a bad idea. Invisibility is exactly the sort of spell that triggers people's fears of Greys in particular, and the sort that lead to the vow of poverty. Creating an item of it that could be lost or stolen and put to nefarious ends is a huge problem in a way that a ring of fireballs usually isn't. Dread Aspect or Pall of Darkness might be a safer alternatives.
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Simple solution, make the ring recharge in a method that requires a Grey Wizard.
 
DocMatoi said:
This is the woman who was ready to follow Honest Abe into vampire hell on loyalty. Of course she's got sentiments.
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That reminds me, did Wilhemina ever hear the full story of what happened the night Abel died?

Because I distinctly remember her not being fond of Sigmarites beforehand, and learning that the Big Guy chose not to save Abel probably won't change that in a positive manner.

I mean, it was enough to turn me from neutral to contemplating deicide, so I can only imagine how Wilhemina must be feeling.
 
Asheram said:
As good @Mopman43 just stated, "relieving suffering" can be interpreted in a few ways. Due to them being divinely tasked to fight The Unclean One and their servants, an argument could easily be made that everyone inflicted by disease and has a chance to spread it, is an unwitting accomplice.
The solution is to purge the area with fire.
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Hence why that sect that puts fighting plagues above all else exists in the first place.

Of course, Shallyan stricture also has a part where it says that if it is the soul's time to depart, a Shallyan shouldn't try to make them linger. So euthanasia is probably an accepted practice. Which could probably be spun into rhetoric about how vampires are souls that linger after death, as verified by Morrites, and tend to cause rather a great deal of suffering, and so should be helped along to Morr's garden.

So you could very well have a theological backing for Shallyan vampire hunters. Which I kind of really want to see, now that I've thought of it.
 
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Speaking as somebody who voted only for "let Eike decide," ultimately I'm very satisfied with this outcome. She is, in the end, eleven. I wanted to give her a sense of agency over this extremely significant development in her life and make sure she had a veto if she got pushed towards a Wind she genuinely disliked, but practically speaking someone that young is always going to have her decisions significantly shaped by the adults in her life. I think this played out as well as I could have reasonably hoped for as such, and to be honest it is true that having a Lady Magister specifically looking out for you in your College is kind of a big deal.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Hence why that sect that puts fighting plagues above all else exists in the first place.

Of course, Shallyan stricture also has a part where it says that if it is the soul's time to depart, a Shallyan shouldn't try to make them linger. So euthanasia is probably an accepted practice. Which could probably be spun into rhetoric about how vampires are souls that linger after death, verified by Morrites, and tend to cause rather a great deal of suffering, and so should be helped along to Morr's garden.

So you could very well have a theological backing for Shallyan vampire hunters. Which I now kind of really want to see, now that I've thought of it.
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It would be scary in that not only would they kill the vampire but also destroy their power base by their mercy and good works.
 
Asheram said:
As good @Mopman43 just stated, "relieving suffering" can be interpreted in a few ways. Due to them being divinely tasked to fight The Unclean One and their servants, an argument could easily be made that everyone inflicted by disease and has a chance to spread it, is an unwitting accomplice.
The solution is to purge the area with fire.
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That is one of the Extremist cults of Shallya

They are pointedly singled out as the only Extremist cult, that's not a right out Hercy cult, That their chosen god will not give them divine help.

at all.

no divine spells for them.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Specifically, more difficulties than any other Shallyan sect.
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True, but I feel like the main point being made was that even Cultists to the gods can get into a fair bit of interpretation of scripture, just as much if not more-so for laymen.

If Eike engages in violence because she feels it'd be justified, she's not going to have to worry about losing divine magic.
 
There is also the questions of how devout of a Shallyan Eike is. Shallya might just be her favourite god cause she's nice, or Eike might be so devout that striking someone with a closed fist is unthinkable.

Think the only reason we know Eike is a Shallyan is because Mathilde deduced it from a conversation, we haven't really had a conversation about her faith with her afaik.
 
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Guys at the end of the day you cannot be a member of the Grey Order, those who bear the sword of judgement, and a pacifist. You simply cannot.

Remember evil Hogwarts? We asked if we would not have charged in if Mathy were not brave. The GM replied no because we had the ability to stop it and it was our duty. The same would be true of Eike, granted she would not be expected to go James Bond on a College of Dark Magic, but if she sees a cultists, a necromancer a daemon that it is in her power to kill she must kill them. The same is true for other enemies of the Empire, not just for the people who Eike can kill with her own hands but with the resources of the EIC.

She needs to find another god, or to make peace that she will kill people, there is no option marked 'other'.
 
It's also worth noting that we technically don't know if there's only one Shallya.

A lot of the seeming schizophrenia of the Warhammer deities and their associated cults vanish if you assume that there's more than one entity granting miracles in each deity's name. It also explains why Ranald can accept the Humble Ones in his flock while not being a complete arsehole to Mathilde for her alliegiances.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
That's true for all the orders, Wizards are military assets first and foremost. Even Pan has killed people (well, Orcs, technically, not humans, as far as I am aware).
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True, but being the secret police has different uses of violence and mindset than being walking artillery or magical support.
Maybe she will never have to use secret police trainning but she will receive one.
And that includes human assassination.
 
DragonParadox said:
Guys at the end of the day you cannot be a member of the Grey Order, those who bear the sword of judgement, and a pacifist. You simply cannot.
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You can.

Even ignoring the fact that rules are no more binding than they're allowed to be, Eike could still become an Perpetual Apprentice who don't have the murder responsibilities. And even ignoring that, the Lore of Ulgu does have a non-lethal takedown spell that can be used.

There are ways to keep your pacifism if you're truly dedicated to it.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Guys at the end of the day you cannot be a member of the Grey Order, those who bear the sword of judgement, and a pacifist. You simply cannot.
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Sure you can. Or did you forget that one of the primary responsibilities of the Greys is Diplomacy? Pacifists and Shallayans are perfect for that role, when dealing with inter-imperial problems. And what does Eike have? A role model that was considered for "Diplomat in Chief to the Dwarves" as a mentor/patron/master.

Grey's are more than spies, sneaks and assassins. They are all that. They are also the kind of people who have twisty minds capable of understanding dwarves, massive spiders, and other people best. This makes them peerless diplomats, when they can also sense the other side lying/disassembling.

A role as Diplomat/forensic accountant is perfectly acceptable to the Grey Order and a natural fit for Eike, in terms of observing Shallayan doctrines.

The spells for hiding, evasion and teleportation serve just as well for conflict avoidance in service to pacifism, as they do for assassination.
 
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I think we should just trust Eike to know how to square her duties as a wizard with her faith.

It is her faith, so it's ultimately up to her how she expresses it, or if she sees an issue here at all.
 
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primemountain said:
Sure you can. Or did you forget that one of the primary responsibilities of the Greys is Diplomacy? Pacifists and Shallayans are perfect for that role, when dealing with inter-imperial problems. And what does Eike have? A role model that was considered for "Diplomat in Chief to the Dwarves" as a mentor/patron/master.

Grey's are more than spies, sneaks and assassins. They are all that. They are also the kind of people who have twisty minds capable of understanding dwarves, massive spiders, and other people best. This makes them peerless diplomats, when they can also sense the other side lying/disassembling.

A role as Diplomat/forensic accountant is perfectly acceptable to the Grey Order and a natural fit for Eike, in terms of observing Shallayan doctrines.
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Sure it is a significant responsibility, but you do not get to ignore the part of the job you are not actively focused on. If in the exercise of diplomacy a chance to kill an enemy of the Empire appears you are oathbound to take it. You do not get to ignore the Black Magister or cultist you know is going to cause more death and ruin because Shaylla would be angry at you.
 
You know, it just struck me that you can, technically speaking, be a Grey Battlemage without going against Shallya's Pacifism.

Of the 9 Battlemagic-level spells listed on the Spellbook, only two of them break the Shallyan standard of "walking around with a sturdy walking stick surrounded by burly mancandy". And considering Tabletop Battlemages as a general rule don't know every spell, I imagine it's pretty easy to get away without knowing those two.

You just have to not fight back (lethally) in case the enemy gets back in close, but when that happens your odds are probably pretty low regardless.
 
BoneyM said:
but the above is why the status quo isn't challenged from within or without
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Ahem.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

Shane_357 said:
...is the plot hook that finally brings Mathilde's family back going to be Wilhelmina deciding to find out why Mathilde never got visitors?!
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I'd love if it was, but I think Wilhelmina is too perceptive and diplomatic for that.

picklepikkl said:
Unrelatedly: Eike was, of course, adorable, but the underrated star of this update was Wilhelmina. She was very clearly torn between "this fucks up everything" and "I care about Eike very much" in her standard understated way. She's not comfortable expressing sentiment, but she certainly feels it.
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I'm glad to see Wilhelmina reacted well. Given how much she's placing on Eike's shoulders, this had the potential to be fraught.

Omegahugger said:
You can also go through life as a Magister and have no greater need for combat classes than your average Imperial citizen.

Let's wait and see if Eike actually wants to lead the kind of life that would require combat.
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@Omegahugger! You stop that this instant! No tempting Ranald's Evil Twin Murphy!

More seriously though, this is Mallus. Where the safest place one can find is a fortified old hold Karak, and oh, what did we recently pull from the warp?

There is no such thing as a life in Mallus which requires less than average combat training. The amount of combat training you require is "however much I can manage to get my hands on."
 
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