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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] Wizard
- [X] Let Eike decide

Eike is so young that a suggestion to her to be some type of wizard may as well be an order to be that type of wizard. One she will most likely do her best to follow through and be dissatisfied if she fails to do so.
 
Shard said:
[X] Wizard
- [X] Let Eike decide

Eike is so young that a suggestion to her to be some type of wizard may as well be an order to be that type of wizard. One she will most likely do her best to follow through and be dissatisfied if she fails to do so.
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Our recommendations are for Eike, but they're going to Wilhelmina.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
If I remember correctly, there is a little bit of pressure on senior wizards to pick up an apprentice and pass their skills on. We haven't experienced that yet, partly because of our location, partly because we've been busy with other things, and partly because we had the Duckling club. But sooner or later, Algard is going to give us a bit of a nudge in that direction,
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I don't think this is correct, I don't recall it coming up in Mathildes's internal narrative anyway.

Still. To my mind, Mathilde's duties under the Articles are clear, no matter her dissembling this time, given that she knows Eike will be returning to the Empire. I can't square the experiment of sending Eike to a Priesthood with Mathildes' duty to send prospective Wizards to the Colleges.

On top of that, Eike really does need to learn how to control the gift and curse of magic, because of the many terrible risks of leaving it untaught- but (I feel) we have no claim here and I want Eike to be able to choose her Wind, at least, given the massive life disruption she's about to undergo.

[X] Wizard
- [X] Let Eike decide
 
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I think it's grouped under the umbrella, but I'm asking just to be sure: The "let Eike decide" option also includes letting her choose to be fitted with magic dampeners, right?
 
Getting sued is miserable even if you win. Getting accused of witchcraft is miserable even if you don't get burned. Being watched closely by the Bursar for your whole career with a knife ready should you ever give in to temptation is miserable. Not being allowed to use your magic in your job is miserable. We don't dislike the girl so why would we steer her in a way that makes those things a likely part of her life?

Be honest, if there were no chance of getting an apprentice out of it would you consider that recommending that the heir presumptive to Wilhemina's shares and position take a vow of poverty that can be enforced with prejudice is good career advice?

Remember it may take a natural 100 for any cute child we happen to meet to be a potential wizard but we don't need that 100 to get a cute child apprentice - we just go to the college and say we're looking to take on an apprentice and the odds are very good that in the pool of juniors there is a suitably winsome and talented youth. If there isn't we can look again in few turns because prospects are brought in regularly with the Whole Empire as catchment area.
 
noliar said:
Getting sued is miserable even if you win. Getting accused of witchcraft is miserable even if you don't get burned. Being watched closely by the Bursar for your whole career with a knife ready should you ever give in to temptation is miserable. Not being allowed to use your magic in your job is miserable. We don't dislike the girl so why would we steer her in a way that makes those things a likely part of her life?

Be honest, if there were no chance of getting an apprentice out of it would you consider that recommending that the heir presumptive to Wilhemina's shares and position take a vow of poverty that can be enforced with prejudice is good career advice?

Remember it may take a natural 100 for any cute child we happen to meet to be a potential wizard but we don't need that 100 to get a cute child apprentice - we just go to the college and say we're looking to take on an apprentice and the odds are very good that in the pool of juniors there is a suitably winsome and talented youth. If there isn't we can look again in few turns because prospects are brought in regularly with the Whole Empire as catchment area.
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The vow of poverty has nothing to do with actual poverty, just not abusing your magic. Case in point Lord Magister Mathilde Weber who lives in the kind of luxury most Imperial nobles cannot dream of. Also I really am starting to resent the implication that the only pro-apprentce arguments are 'cute kid get'.
 
[X] Wizard
-[X] Let Eike decide
-[X] The Grey Order
-[X] The Order of Life

Most of the arguments I've seen against Grey Order just make me more interested in it as an option. If you ask me, every businessperson could use a Vow of Poverty... Honestly, if I could go back and make it so Mathy never had to deal with a Vow of Poverty, no strings attached, I wouldn't do it. I earnestly believe that the Vow of Poverty is a boon, not a curse.

The possibility of apprenticeship is also very interesting. I find the arguments that this is selfish to be pretty weak: if I learned I had the ability to use magic, I sure as hell wouldn't be upset if a Lady Magister offered me an apprenticeship.

My second recommendation would be the Jade College, I found the arguments for it's philosophical compatibility with the EIC's charter very compelling.

I would have voted for Clergy as well, but there's too many unknowns there for my liking. We don't even know for sure if having magic potential qualifies her for divine magic, nor do we really have any contacts that could keep an eye on her there to make sure she's OK. Also, the things I hear about the Cult of Shallya potentially not viewing self-care as important are... very concerning. She deserves better than that.
 
Valmond said:
Calling a society "not sophisticated" has, implications, that historically have not gone well for the people that claim has been aimed at.
And, claiming that animals can't have sophisticated social structures is not something i think is necessarily true either.

Ghur, for whatever reason, thinks it's ok to turn into dragon or a wolf, but possibly not human (this may be actual limitation, or nobody just trying), or it may just be preconceived idea of magic users.
I think there was a statement about captured animals loosing their ghur signature or something, i just don't remember when, but living in a city and being forced to wear pants has not made Dragomas powerless, so i suspect there is more to this than just "dragon society is simple".
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What I'm trying to say is thst Ghur can turn people into Dragons because they seem unsophisticated and beastial to the (probably quite bigoted) majority of mortal minds on the planet, when in reality they are just alien.

That said, it is fair to say that Dragons have less sophistication when it comes to infrastructure, domestication, organizational hierarchy, economy and many other superficially visible things that many of the mortal races consider stereotypical signs of civilization. And that probably makes them closer to Ghur the way that Dwarves are closer to Stone without actually having a higher mineral density in their tissues.

In other words, Dragons get caregorized as beasts because they look like beasts to the majority of locals whose metaphors the Winds take their cues from.
NSMS said:
The grey order wouldn't let her get away with abusing her magic in that way. That's both a defense against accusations ('I would be dead if I tried to do what you're suggesting') and a good reason for her not to give into temptation. That's not to say having a grey magister openly leading the EIC couldn't cause issues, but they're far more likely to be of the 'magic is evil' or 'we can't do business with her, she might uncover our shady business deals' variety.
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How would they stop it without definite proof? The only way to do that would be by prematurely acting on suspicion.

The way they usually prevent it is by indoctrinating loyalty and fear due to the Vow of Poverty until such a point where the Grey Journeyman has proven themselves trustworthy enough or otherwise worth being left on a longer leash.

Just to remind everyone, we directly broke the Vow of Poverty back when we decided to steal all of the discretionary funds from the Stirland Spymaster's office and defraud the government from a national guild and factory in a zero cost privatization scheme. And we never got caught.
Saidoro said:
So, there are a few points to be made on the Ghur turning into humans spell thing.

First off, the list of spells we have access to is the Amber College's spell list, not a list of everything that can possibly be done with Ghur. Even if there was a spell for becoming human, it wouldn't be on there.
Second, the actual alignment of a creature with Ghur probably matters less than whether the caster's unique view of magic associates them with it. If I'm remembering right, Transformation of Kadon specifically gives you the body of a fire dragon, which unambiguously isn't aligned with Ghur. Bear in mind, spells like shadowsteed and stoke the forge exist.
Third, there's a lot less utility in a dragon turning into a human than there is in a human turning into a dragon, and that means that there's a lot less incentive to try to figure out those sorts of spells. A dragon might reasonably ask why it would want to spend a lot of its time and energy figuring out how to turn into one of us little apes. And an elf or skink could just use grey magic instead if they ever wanted to seem human, so there's no point for them to do it either.

So I suppose overall, there's no particular reason it couldn't exist, but it probably doesn't, and even if it did we wouldn't know about it.
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As the one who brought it up, my question was less about whether it does exist and more about whether Ghur would even be the right avenue if someone wanted to make it exist.

In general I have been musing about it on and off since the creation of the Dragon Altar and have idly thought about it whenever "saving Qretch's soul" came up as well.
 
Rafin said:
How would they stop it without definite proof? The only way to do that would be by prematurely acting on suspicion.

The way they usually prevent it is by indoctrinating loyalty and fear due to the Vow of Poverty until such a point where the Grey Journeyman has proven themselves trustworthy enough or otherwise worth being left on a longer leash.
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If someone starts using ulgu to mess with people's heads so they can make money, there will be signs. Not on the level you could reliably detect with individuals, but if they do it to lots of people? Repeatedly? It will get noticed that something is up, and the grey order will (discretely) investigate to see whether head-chopping is required. And in this case, it's as much about the perception of others (that the grey order won't allow it) and Eike herself (that Mathilde/the order will catch her if she does it) as the actual reality too.
Rafin said:
Just to remind everyone, we directly broke the Vow of Poverty back when we decided to steal all of the discretionary funds from the Stirland Spymaster's office and defraud the government from a national guild and factory in a zero cost privatization scheme. And we never got caught.
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I suspect the reason we never got called on that was less that the order never noticed and more that we didn't use magic to do it. The grey college generally follows the spirit of the vow (don't abuse your magic to make money) rather than the letter.
 
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Remember when we wrote and sold the memoirs of Asarnil as a journeywoman, and we earned a crate full of silver, and the grey order did nothing at all?

It's not our prestige that protects us from the vow of poverty, it's the fact that we have never broken it that protects us. The money from the book sales, the taxes we collect from our fief, the income from the EIC, our wage as Loremaster, our pay as a member of the K8P expedition (which was what, 3000 ingots of silver?), because none of that money was earned or spent in a way that broke our vow*.

Hell, it's right there in the articles: 11. All Magisters may expect to receive accommodation, benefits, respect, and fair treatment, as would befit any noble of Sigmar's Holy Empire, while in the employ of the Electors of Sigmar's Holy Empire.

The articles are more important than the vow. "Expect to receive... benefits", which almost certainly include fair pay for services rendered.

Ultimately, the vow of poverty is a vow of not using magic for personal gain, but instead using magic for the benefit of the Empire and it's people and institutions.


*For the purpose of this discussion, I'm ignoring the embezzlement, and even that can be justified a little—we were using the spymaster's funds to for self improvement so we could better defend Stirland.
 
[X] Wizard
-[X] Let Eike decide
-[X] The Order of Life

I don't think Eike has a good mindset for Ulgu.

But I'm absolutely swayed by the argument that the EIC could be seen to be an organiz system much like a field Panoramia tends.

Unconventional wizardry for the win!
 
You know I have made this point in various responses but always obliquely so let me be a bit clearer on this when it comes to supposed human comparability with a wind.

The winds in their pure forms are deeply, deeply alien to all mortal life, that is why there are so many different views of them so many personal paradigms. Because they are so alien it is very rare for a human being to be meaningfully aligned with one. You have instances like Xerus of Purple Sun fame, but generally speaking outside the very neurodivergent you are not going to find people who fit the mindset of one of them without training.

So yeah I agree Eike does not have a good mindset for Ulgu, she also does not have a good mindset for Chammon or Ghyan or any of the other five. It is that very incompatibility that makes most humans unwitting Dhar users if left on their own and it is also the reason why the Colleges have to work to hard to sculpt the minds of their students to match the Wind they are trying to learn.
 
Derpmind said:
And DL is a more simulationist world that has a story inside it, rather than the opposite. Remember when we were explaining to Belegar and Kragg about the orcish-posession, and we rolled a natural 100? That resulted in Gunnars being a hero-tier Priest. But, when we tried to befriend him and get to know him better, it turns out he had sworn to not have friends or family. We tried to "seize the opportunity", but it turned out that there wasn't anything for Mathilde (and us players) to gain from doing so. That's not to say we didn't benefit from the roll, but Gunnard existed more as his own character than as someone just to further Mathilde's narrative. And I feel that too many people are treating Eike as a natural 100 on legs rather than as a character with her own outside-our-narrative life and story.
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Gunnars helped Mathilde with her sword style, was involved in building the Sword of Gazul and has generally been helpful in providing useful lore (even though his pre-battle rally didn't do all that much).

Mathilde has certainly earned his trust - pretty sure high ranking Dawi priests don't just approach any human with a fancy hat to teach them religious lore (though admittedly it was possible he was anticipating Mathilde being dwarfed) - it is just that Gunnars doesn't have a private life outside of being a priest of Gazul.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Remember when we wrote and sold the memoirs of Asarnil as a journeywoman, and we earned a crate full of silver, and the grey order did nothing at all?
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They did admittedly take the tithe.

[x] Wizard
- [X] Let Eike decide
- [x] The Grey Order
 
[X] Wizard
- [X] Let Eike decide
- [X] The Celestial College
- [X] The Golden Order
- [X] The Order of Life
 
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