Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I mean, do we know that? She evidently thought it worth it to get their buy-in for the river traffic, but do we know that she cares as much as you say?
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I have a question, why the hell do we care what hypothetical greedy morons think of Eike or if they start screaming witch on her. What are they going to do try to take on the Grey Order with the inspiring rallying cry of 'we want to be more selfish'.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
The grey order wouldn't let her get away with abusing her magic in that way. That's both a defense against accusations ('I would be dead if I tried to do what you're suggesting') and a good reason for her not to give into temptation. That's not to say having a grey magister openly leading the EIC couldn't cause issues, but they're far more likely to be of the 'magic is evil' or 'we can't do business with her, she might uncover our shady business deals' variety.
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At the end of the day this is how. I see this, we rolled a nat 100 allowing us all sort of cool potential for an apprentice with whom we are already acquainted with while also bringing the EIC into better focus. I think the idea of throwing that away because of Fiduciary Duty to what are basically nameless non-characters is just a tremendous waste.
[x] Clergy
[x] Wizard
- [X] Let Eike decide
- [x] The Golden Order
[x] Wizard
- [X] Let Eike decide
- [x] The Golden Order
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm not afraid of some horrible corporate consequences either. But it's not our natural 100. Eike could easily be more suited to one of the other 7 winds, or might want to become a priest, or might even not want to use magic at all. That natural 100 gave her magic, but noting more than that. She's not predestined to become Mathilde's apprentice, nor to be any good at using Ulgu in a way that Mathilde would be a good teacher for her. The amount of ownership people are taking over Eike is frankly souring my desire for any kind of apprentice at all.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Not just that, an anachronistic concept of fiduciary duty that's based on the Market Capitalist "Greed is Good" model rather than the feudal society with hints of mercantilism that is The Empire. The 44% of the EIC that isn't owned by Wilhelmina or Mathilde is owned by three feudal governments.
I'm not opposed to Eike choosing a different path, but the idea that the EIC engaging in ethical mercantilism would somehow be failing to do its duty is based in a modern ethos that makes no sense in context.
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It kind of is our nat 100. We are the players this is our quest, this interesting and unlikely twist to the narrative has happened. I would much rather seize it properly then not.
This is also not about predestination for Eike, it is about opportunity. Most humans are not really inclined towards one wind or another before they start learning, much less inclined towards a specific way to use a Wind. With that taken into consideration being the apprentice of a lord magister is much better for one's magical education than not.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Well, in theory anyways. It's certainly possible to be both a Lord Magister and be absolutely terrible at teaching.
Mathilde's done pretty well with the Ducklings, though*, so I'm feeling positive about how that'd go.
*Helping Johann with his Windsight, for example.
[x] Wizard
- [X] Let Eike decide
- [x] The Grey Order
thought about it for while and then apprentice get has convinced me to get one.
Would consider clergy if we knew IC some reasonable priests/priestess and their culture and religion and way of training initiates more but as it stands no we don't so ain't going to vote for it.
- [X] Let Eike decide
- [x] The Grey Order
thought about it for while and then apprentice get has convinced me to get one.
Would consider clergy if we knew IC some reasonable priests/priestess and their culture and religion and way of training initiates more but as it stands no we don't so ain't going to vote for it.
- Location
- Singapore
I suspect IC from the perspective of a prospective mentor, it would be Eika's seeming promise and potential at Windsight that will pique Mathilde's interest as a Wizard given Mathilde's own proclivities towards it. Likely, Eike's windsight manifesting sensitively and with such potential for someone this young would be one of the main non-nepotistic, reason why Mathilde might consider her as a potential apprentice, in story. We know at least Eike is definitely a perceptive individual, both in the mundane... and likely the arcane. Remember, this Mathilde just windsight her way to pulling a whole Karak out of the warp mere weeks ago - the power of perception is something Mathilde most definitely respects.
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- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Mathilde is not Eike's mother.
And DL is a more simulationist world that has a story inside it, rather than the opposite. Remember when we were explaining to Belegar and Kragg about the orcish-posession, and we rolled a natural 100? That resulted in Gunnars being a hero-tier Priest. But, when we tried to befriend him and get to know him better, it turns out he had sworn to not have friends or family. We tried to "seize the opportunity", but it turned out that there wasn't anything for Mathilde (and us players) to gain from doing so. That's not to say we didn't benefit from the roll, but Gunnard existed more as his own character than as someone just to further Mathilde's narrative. And I feel that too many people are treating Eike as a natural 100 on legs rather than as a character with her own outside-our-narrative life and story.
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I just personally want to make sure she's okay and not getting taken advantage of. Thats it.
Shallya would have been tentatively okay for me, until I learned the whole "Self-care is optional" deal, which I wouldn't want to force on her.
Gold or Jade could potentially work. Heck, I voted for them. But I can also see the downsides that we have no real control over whether or not someone tries to take advantage of controlling the Heir to one of the Empires rising companies. There are ways to mitigate that, but as seen with us trying to recruit Horstmann, that kind of stuff makes it very easy to get ourselves tied into College Political Fights.
The thing is, Grey has the potential to give her a lot of options, whilst also being somewhere we know she won't get taken advantage of. Also, letting her decide is the second highest vote on the list, and thus will also be something We strongly advocate for. So it's not like people don't care about Eikes personal choice.
Shallya would have been tentatively okay for me, until I learned the whole "Self-care is optional" deal, which I wouldn't want to force on her.
Gold or Jade could potentially work. Heck, I voted for them. But I can also see the downsides that we have no real control over whether or not someone tries to take advantage of controlling the Heir to one of the Empires rising companies. There are ways to mitigate that, but as seen with us trying to recruit Horstmann, that kind of stuff makes it very easy to get ourselves tied into College Political Fights.
The thing is, Grey has the potential to give her a lot of options, whilst also being somewhere we know she won't get taken advantage of. Also, letting her decide is the second highest vote on the list, and thus will also be something We strongly advocate for. So it's not like people don't care about Eikes personal choice.
- Location
- Oklahoma
I'll reiterate that I primarily want her to go to the Greys because it seems like the best path both for her and Wilhelmina, as it allows Mathilde to keep an eye on her and help her and its the path Mathilde personally knows the most about- having an apprentice that came up naturally through the story would be nice, buts its not the sole or even main reason.
Others have given plenty of reasons of their own, and those reasons are many and varied.
So I'd really appreciate it if people would stop making wide sweeping statements about the motivations of all 100+ people voting to advocate for the Grey Order.
Others have given plenty of reasons of their own, and those reasons are many and varied.
So I'd really appreciate it if people would stop making wide sweeping statements about the motivations of all 100+ people voting to advocate for the Grey Order.
- Location
- Space
So, there are a few points to be made on the Ghur turning into humans spell thing.
First off, the list of spells we have access to is the Amber College's spell list, not a list of everything that can possibly be done with Ghur. Even if there was a spell for becoming human, it wouldn't be on there.
Second, the actual alignment of a creature with Ghur probably matters less than whether the caster's unique view of magic associates them with it. If I'm remembering right, Transformation of Kadon specifically gives you the body of a fire dragon, which unambiguously isn't aligned with Ghur. Bear in mind, spells like shadowsteed and stoke the forge exist.
Third, there's a lot less utility in a dragon turning into a human than there is in a human turning into a dragon, and that means that there's a lot less incentive to try to figure out those sorts of spells. A dragon might reasonably ask why it would want to spend a lot of its time and energy figuring out how to turn into one of us little apes. And an elf or skink could just use grey magic instead if they ever wanted to seem human, so there's no point for them to do it either.
So I suppose overall, there's no particular reason it couldn't exist, but it probably doesn't, and even if it did we wouldn't know about it.
First off, the list of spells we have access to is the Amber College's spell list, not a list of everything that can possibly be done with Ghur. Even if there was a spell for becoming human, it wouldn't be on there.
Second, the actual alignment of a creature with Ghur probably matters less than whether the caster's unique view of magic associates them with it. If I'm remembering right, Transformation of Kadon specifically gives you the body of a fire dragon, which unambiguously isn't aligned with Ghur. Bear in mind, spells like shadowsteed and stoke the forge exist.
Third, there's a lot less utility in a dragon turning into a human than there is in a human turning into a dragon, and that means that there's a lot less incentive to try to figure out those sorts of spells. A dragon might reasonably ask why it would want to spend a lot of its time and energy figuring out how to turn into one of us little apes. And an elf or skink could just use grey magic instead if they ever wanted to seem human, so there's no point for them to do it either.
So I suppose overall, there's no particular reason it couldn't exist, but it probably doesn't, and even if it did we wouldn't know about it.
- Location
- Finland
I see about zero change of us taking advantage of Eike.
We might not, due to personal biases, make the best possible decision, but we are going to make our best to make things right for Eike.
- Location
- Singapore
We do have the unique opportunity to delve deeper into Gazulite cult secrets on the condition Mathilde shares it with no one but her hypothetical apprentice, but the thread hasn't decided to take the opportunity yet. I suspect the theoretical gain is that Mathilde becomes even better at fighting the undead... and have some insight into Theurgy and the nature of gods the human cults will not permit us to look into... and become an even more dangerous threat to the world should Mathilde ever fall.
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- Location
- Singapore
The in-character answer for Mathilde given she does have Grey Paranoia and trust very few people : among humans, she'd only trust herself, Wilhemina, Anton and maybe Panoramia and Regimand to not take advantage of Eike. Who Mathilde is likely to trust, if she does care that Eike isn't taken advantage of, is certainly food for thought.
I do wonder, what are the implications of a member of the Jade College being one of the major shareholders in the EIC? It's a question I feel that's been underexplored, but I feel there's a potential narrative argument both personal, business and political to be had for the Jade College (Anton and Panoramia featuring strongly in it). My understanding is that if you look at the values Wilhemina try to inoculate into the EIC (see what Eike recited, sustainability by another name... I suspect many Jade Magisters will find these values sound).... the Jade College might be very compatible with this worldview, and that's before you consider Anton. Altdorf is one missed meal away from collapsing into savagery (thank you Pan) is an insight that drives home why the wagons need to keep rolling. Every Imperial City is several missed wagon convoys away from rioting...
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- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
...I wasn't arguing we would tho?
Look, if it turns out the Eike is strongly opposed to Ulgu and instead strongly aligned with another wind, then our recommendation is dust in the wind. The collages do not want to teach apprentices who are ill-suited, and someone within the teaching apparatus of the collages will move her to a more suitable campus.
Honestly, I have seen no reason why the Ulgu and the Grey Collage is a bad fit for Eike, unless it appears she has already developed an affinity for another wind, at which point we have to take her to the correct collage.
But, based on our knowledge of the situation, our experience of the collage, our ability to investigate and influence her path, and our ability to protect her according to our morals, then Grey is the strong contender for the best environment for Eike to spend the next 5 years of her life. And after that? If I remember correctly, there is a little bit of pressure on senior wizards to pick up an apprentice and pass their skills on. We haven't experienced that yet, partly because of our location, partly because we've been busy with other things, and partly because we had the Duckling club. But sooner or later, Algard is going to give us a bit of a nudge in that direction, and having a candidate that we like, IC and OOC, one who already has narrative weight to the story, one who comes with divided loyalties, will only be to everyone's benefit, both IC and OOC.
Honestly, I have seen no reason why the Ulgu and the Grey Collage is a bad fit for Eike, unless it appears she has already developed an affinity for another wind, at which point we have to take her to the correct collage.
But, based on our knowledge of the situation, our experience of the collage, our ability to investigate and influence her path, and our ability to protect her according to our morals, then Grey is the strong contender for the best environment for Eike to spend the next 5 years of her life. And after that? If I remember correctly, there is a little bit of pressure on senior wizards to pick up an apprentice and pass their skills on. We haven't experienced that yet, partly because of our location, partly because we've been busy with other things, and partly because we had the Duckling club. But sooner or later, Algard is going to give us a bit of a nudge in that direction, and having a candidate that we like, IC and OOC, one who already has narrative weight to the story, one who comes with divided loyalties, will only be to everyone's benefit, both IC and OOC.
