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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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there is also the argument that all that needs to be done is have Eike set to inherit Mathy's stocks in the business.

and then have Wilhelmina 'sell' her stocks to 'an interested party' when she retires.

and if that 'interested party' just so happens to be Eike with a different name, a fake age id and a moustache, well, it's not like anyone that's not a grey wizard or family will have seen the girl for years.

that way the grey wizard involved with the EIC is still 'the silent partner'. wink-wink.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
there is also the argument that all that needs to be done is have Eike set to inherit Mathy's stocks in the business.

and then have Wilhelmina 'sell' her stocks to 'an interested party' when she retires.

and if that 'interested party' just so happens to be Eike with a different name, a fake age id and a moustache, well, it's not like anyone that's not a grey wizard or family will have seen the girl for years.

that way the grey wizard involved with the EIC is still 'the silent partner'. wink-wink.
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That subterfuge only works until Eike gains her first Arcane mark.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
you can only turn into a dragon if you are racist to dragons.

think about that.
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I don't think that's true. Like, sure, the person who invented the spell must have been racist towards Dragons, but once the spell has been blackboxed and made teachable even Wizards who don't at all connect Dragons to wild beasts in their daily lives can learn to cast it with Ghur. Just like Mathilde can summon a horse without in any way thinking that it somehow connects with her understanding of Ulgu.

Valmond said:
Not only is it kinda insulting towards any society not behaving like ours, but it also makes statements we have no means to actually verify.
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It's not inherently insulting, because having innate cultural connections to Ghur is not an insult. Also, all Winds are based around mortal concepts. If an intelligent species manages to completely and paradoxically fit into the Ghur mold that's a reflection on whatever mechanisms created Ghur as a separate thing in the first place, not on the intelligent species whose way of life literally predates the Winds.
 
ctulhuslp said:
It is probably a bit late, but I would like to point out that kids are not there to be 'cute' and that parents who make kids with this as only motivation are kind of...not that great at thinking like a parent, IMO.
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You are mixing up IC and OOC motivations. "ADORABLE APPRENTICE :O" as part of "Vote for what you want to see more of in the quest" is perfectly valid, but that's not going to be the IC reason that Mathilde does anything—and there are plenty of IC justifications for why somebody would want to take an apprentice or why one would be useful, anything from duty to empathy to doing right by your friends or leaving behind a legacy.

ctulhuslp said:
Yes, that's a lot of conditionals, its intentional because odds are Eike won't even become eligible for Mathilde's apprenticeship or there may be no conflict between time commitments and Apprentice
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BoneyM said:
So you could start teaching her immediately, you could leave it 3-5 years to take her on at the 'normal' time, or you could get her in 6-10 if Mathilde uses her rank to call dibs.
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Assuming she goes with the Greys, we can vote to teach her whenever, and we have enough clout to call dibs.
 
Rafin said:
It's not inherently insulting, because having innate cultural connections to Ghur is not an insult. Also, all Winds are based around mortal concepts. If an intelligent species manages to completely and paradoxically fit into the Ghur mold that's a reflection on whatever mechanisms created Ghur as a separate thing in the first place, not on the intelligent species whose way of life literally predates the Winds.
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Calling a society "not sophisticated" has, implications, that historically have not gone well for the people that claim has been aimed at.
And, claiming that animals can't have sophisticated social structures is not something i think is necessarily true either.

Ghur, for whatever reason, thinks it's ok to turn into dragon or a wolf, but possibly not human (this may be actual limitation, or nobody just trying), or it may just be preconceived idea of magic users.
I think there was a statement about captured animals loosing their ghur signature or something, i just don't remember when, but living in a city and being forced to wear pants has not made Dragomas powerless, so i suspect there is more to this than just "dragon society is simple".
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
I do actually think that the only reason there isn't a 'turn to elf, human, lizardmen, orc etc' spell in Ghur is that people and cultures have separated them in their minds from animals. not because its not possible.

there is a 'turn to dragon' spell because of speciesism.

you can only turn into a dragon if you are racist to dragons.

think about that.
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That's only if you consider 'Ghur' to be 'animal lesser than person'. I personally consider it the Wind of Simplicity, rather than animals. Dragons keep it simple, elves, humans and dwarfs do not.
 
Valmond said:
Calling a society "not sophisticated" has, implications, that historically have not gone well for the people that claim has been aimed at.
And, claiming that animals can't have sophisticated social structures is not something i think is necessarily true either.

Ghur, for whatever reason, thinks it's ok to turn into dragon or a wolf, but possibly not human (this may be actual limitation, or nobody just trying), or it may just be preconceived idea of magic users.
I think there was a statement about captured animals loosing their ghur signature or something, i just don't remember when, but living in a city and being forced to wear pants has not made Dragomas powerless, so i suspect there is more to this than just "dragon society is simple".
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Mopman43 said:
That was about the requirements for the sacrifice for the Dragon Altar, I believe. Needs to be filled with the blood of wild animals, not captive.
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Which means it could be a matter of the enchanters understanding of Ghur, rather than a fundamental limit. I'm not surprised most amber wizards don't consider humans part of their field. Or maybe some do, but they don't mention it because people would take offense. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if there's an amber who considers cities the natural habitat of the human animal (especially if they grew up in the slums or something).

In in any case, I can totally see a dragon considering humans animals. And there's a good chance they'd be old enough to remember a time when humans mostly ran around in loinclothes.
 
BurnNote said:
Which means it could be a matter of the enchanters understanding of Ghur, rather than a fundamental limit. I'm not surprised most amber wizards don't consider humans part of their field. Or maybe some do, but they don't mention it because people would take offense. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if there's an amber who considers cities the natural habitat of the human animal (especially if they grew up in the slums or something).
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Hell this is actually part of why I think Ghur is Simplicity - Beastmen. They use the Lore of Beasts (theoretically Dhar-Ghur) and are described as utterly contemptous of all mortal artifice and civilisation, tearing it down and defiling it. If you consider them to be a dark reflection of True Ghur, then 'animals' doesn't quite fit. Now if one of the Amber Brotherhood tried to use their spells on a fanatic of Taal who lives out in the forest and hasn't seen a human in five years, I think they might find purchase.
 
Mopman43 said:
The update just said "wild, not domesticated", but I swear there's a WoB that an animal in captivity eventually wouldn't count.
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Figure it makes sense that if you remove an animal from the wilds for long enough the ghur starts to thin out, but holding the wild animals for somewhere between a day and a week probably works.
 
noliar said:
The CEO of the company has a fiduciary duty to make all the shareholders richer.
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The EIC is not a Publicly Traded Company that has too many shareholders to ask them individually. The CEO has the duty to serve the interests of the stakeholders, but when there are only three stakeholders you can be a lot more accurate as to what those interests are than just guessing "they probably want cash".

And if Eike inherits from both Wilhelmina and Mathilde there'll only be two stakeholders. The second (minority) stakeholder being Anton who is highly unlikely to go "I want you to maximise profits at the cost of the Empire's stability".

Additionally, the EIC has a founding charter that isn't just "make money". As such even if Anton were to sell his ownership to 1 million different people the CEO would be expected to stick to that charter - because any stakeholder has bought into the charter.
 
henkalv said:
Figure it makes sense that if you remove an animal from the wilds for long enough the ghur starts to thin out, but holding the wild animals for somewhere between a day and a week probably works.
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Finally found it.

BoneyM said:
There's only so long you can keep a wild animal in a cage until it's not wild any more.
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BoneyM said:
Days. Ghur is the Wind of the wilds, take the animal out of the wilds and before long you won't have the Winds.
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kingreaper said:
The EIC is not a Publicly Traded Company that has too many shareholders to ask them individually. The CEO has the duty to serve the interests of the stakeholders, but when there are only three stakeholders you can be a lot more accurate as to what those interests are than just guessing "they probably want cash".

And if Eike inherits from both Wilhelmina and Mathilde there'll only be two stakeholders. The second (minority) stakeholder being Anton who is highly unlikely to go "I want you to maximise profits at the cost of the Empire's stability".

Additionally, the EIC has a founding charter that isn't just "make money". As such even if Anton were to sell his ownership to 1 million different people the CEO would be expected to stick to that charter - because any stakeholder has bought into the charter.
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There are also two nobles with 14% each. So there are 5 shareholders now.
Organization info post says that owners are these:
Shareholders: Dame Mathilde Weber (36%), Wilhelmina Hochschild (20%), Barony of Blutdorf (16%), County of Franzen (14%), County of Wolfsbach (14%)
 
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On the Ghur subject I believe trying to generalized a spell consequence into the wind essence a bit forced. The caster reference is kinda of important in magic, specially human on with lot of mythicism.

If you try to apply logic than you can also barge in the difference between a water heavy clound and mist. I mean its mostly perceptive from something rather than inherent of the cloud. Or when earth turns in metal. Would a ground generate charge be Azyr?
 
LightLan said:
Didn't Wilhelmina let the two river monopoly guys buy in?
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LockedMind said:
There are also two nobles with 14% each. So there are 5 shareholders now.
Organization info post says that owners are these:
Shareholders: Dame Mathilde Weber (36%), Wilhelmina Hochschild (20%), Barony of Blutdorf (16%), County of Franzen (14%), County of Wolfsbach (14%)
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Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about that. Even so, they bought in with the knowledge of what the EIC was - and that is not a sociopathic profit maximiser. It's profitable, sure, but it's also got an ethical foundation.
 
also they are 38% so don't count. It's not like the Empire has developed caselaw on duties of owners either. They are entitled to shares of the profits, and vote for controller. beyond that they mean fuck-all.
 
Matty doesn't give a shit about the interests of the minor shareholders so long as they don't make trouble. Wilhelmina does. She's that kind of honest and she'd demand a similar attitude from her designated successor.

If we're talking about Eike as as the combined head of the company and ranking Grey then the trust between Matty and Wilhelmina is no longer relevant by definition because they're dead and it's probably Anton's heir rather than Anton who's the next biggest shareholder. That as yet undefined person is highly unlikely to have the same trust of Eike that Anton has for us. Fiduciary duty may not be closely defined in setting like in modern corporate law but Imperial aristocrats are quite capable of suing the fuck out of each other if they feel that the company that makes up most of their wealth is neglecting to give them an adequate return in favour of secret Grey wizard projects she says are for the Good of the Empire. Roswita's heir might rule against Eike but even a win would make public just how much we stretched the loophole.

Alternatively, Grey CEO Eike can all too easily be accused of using grey magic to further company interests. She won't have the protections of distance and prestige that Mathilde enjoys. She might even be guilty, it's such an easy temptation for an Ulgu user. That's why the vow of poverty exists.
 
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