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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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fictionfan said:
Imagine explaining our dilemma to a dwarf "It like finding a vein of gold in your living room wall. Amazing fortune, but really inconvenience."
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Nah, a dwarf in that situation would grumble about the idiots who did the mineral survey, then call in a mining team. No real inconvenience, just an unexpected boon. This is closer to finding that the iron-rich seam you've been setting up to exploit is in fact a seam of gold instead; still useful, but not in the way you planned for and now you need to order a ton of new tools and replan how you're going to mine it.
 
NeonLights said:
We don't even know if she has the magical potential to even make Journeywoman, but it's not impossible. But being an agent of the Grey Order and being the head of trade company are not likely to be compatible. She can't do jobs like Regimand in Nordland while also trying secure business deals in Ostermark. And we have no idea what her talents even are. Maybe it's diplomacy, maybe it's mathematics, maybe it's logistics. But whatever they may be, she can pursue them in any other College without the burden of responsibilities of being a Grey Wizard.
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Again why not? The purpose of the Grey Order is to serve the Empire, not to serve it a certain way. As long as the trading company is actively helping the Empire Eike had be fine as its head. There is no legal definition for what service to the Grey Order is, there is just their typical role defined by typical circumstances which these are not.
 
I kind of want to try and get her into the clergy of Ranald. The Ranaldian takeover of the empire must continue.

Plus, my perception is that being a priest is safer, miscast wise... unless you try to steal from Stromfel, RIP Wolf.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Again why not? The purpose of the Grey Order is to serve the Empire, not to serve it a certain way. As long as the trading company is actively helping the Empire Eike had be fine as its head. There is no legal definition for what service to the Grey Order is, there is just their typical role defined by typical circumstances which these are not.
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Look at Gretel. All she has to do is pay one coin in ten, and the Amethyst College leaves her alone. And while here is no legal definition, there certainly are precedents and expectations. If Eike's a Grey, the jobs the Grey College wants her to do will be different from the jobs the Celestials, or Golds, or Jades want her to do. And because of the Vow of Poverty, she can't put down "in ownership of XX% of Stirland's trade" as her contribution. She's going to have to take time out of being the head of merchant house to go poke something, and have her focus split down two ways.
 
NeonLights said:
We don't even know if she has the magical potential to even make Journeywoman, but it's not impossible. But being an agent of the Grey Order and being the head of trade company are not likely to be compatible. She can't do jobs like Regimand in Nordland while also trying secure business deals in Ostermark. And we have no idea what her talents even are. Maybe it's diplomacy, maybe it's mathematics, maybe it's logistics. But whatever they may be, she can pursue them in any other College without the burden of responsibilities of being a Grey Wizard.
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This is explicitly not the case. Regimand runs an Empire-spanning hospitality network, Mathilde does the same with the EIC, and there will be plenty of other examples. The only structure is that they must be to the benefit of the Empire in some way. Time and time again the Vow of Poverty has been shown to have unwritten loopholes for different facets and titles a person holds.

In all seriousness, we're going to be working incredibly closely with Eike in the future, so why not make that small extra step and just take her on as an apprentice once she reaches senior apprentice, like Regimand did with Mathilde? Her inheritance of the EIC shouldn't be a problem, as its mission statement is already in-line with the Grey Order's MO.

Eike also seems to have made a very favourable impression on the dwarves in this update, and being the 'apprentice to Lady Magister Mathilde Weber' will open a lot of doors with them for her. I'd like to point out that, in all of those oaths of secrecy we swore to the dwarves, there's a structure that we keep all information that we learn to ourselves and our apprentices.

Dwarves take apprentices seriously, and Mathilde's apprentice is going to garner a lot of interest.
 
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NeonLights said:
Look at Gretel. All she has to do is pay one coin in ten, and the Amethyst College leaves her alone. And while here is no legal definition, there certainly are precedents and expectations. If Eike's a Grey, the jobs the Grey College wants her to do will be different from the jobs the Celestials, or Golds, or Jades want her to do. And because of the Vow of Poverty, she can't put down "in ownership of XX% of Stirland's trade" as her contribution. She's going to have to take time out of being the head of merchant house to go poke something, and have her focus split down two ways.
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When was the last time the Grey Order gave us a job?

*crickets*

That is right, never unless you count the job in Stirland which was the conspiracy. As long s you are already doing something to help the Empire the Grey Order will not meddle with you and we have Mathilde in the text saying what she will be able to inherit the company despite the Vow. Being that she is a Lord Magister I imagine she would know.
 
NeonLights said:
Look at Gretel. All she has to do is pay one coin in ten, and the Amethyst College leaves her alone. And while here is no legal definition, there certainly are precedents and expectations. If Eike's a Grey, the jobs the Grey College wants her to do will be different from the jobs the Celestials, or Golds, or Jades want her to do. And because of the Vow of Poverty, she can't put down "in ownership of XX% of Stirland's trade" as her contribution. She's going to have to take time out of being the head of merchant house to go poke something, and have her focus split down two ways.
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There are stereotypes associated with each order, but that's just what they are: stereotypes. There's certainly a good amount of truth in them in that a lot of mages are like that, but you're not actually obligated to follow them or the traditional and expected path for your order; K8P is pretty much made up entirely of magisters who don't fit the traditional stereotypical mould of their order.
 
DragonParadox said:
When was the last time the Grey Order gave us a job?

*crickets*

That is right, never unless you count the job in Stirland which was the conspiracy. As long s you are already doing something to help the Empire the Grey Order will not meddle with you and we have Mathilde in the text saying what she will be able to inherit the company despite the Vow. Being that she is a Lord Magister I imagine she would know.
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Because we always found a job they liked. The only reason we got away with that is went above and beyond the call of duty and shattered expectations on a gruesome military campaign. Unless Eike builds heaps of good will hard and fast, she's not going to get the same leeway. She's going to get orders, and unless she coughs up a good reason she'll have to do them no matter where they take her.

Xepheria said:
This is explicitly not the case. Regimand runs an Empire-spanning hospitality network, Mathilde does the same with the EIC, and there will be plenty of other examples. The only structure is that they must be to the benefit of the Empire in some way. Time and time again the Vow of Poverty has been shown to have unwritten loopholes for different facets and titles a person holds.

In all seriousness, we're going to be working incredibly closely with Eike in the future, so why not make that small extra step and just take her on as an apprentice once she reaches senior apprentice, like Regimand did with Mathilde? Her inheritance of the EIC shouldn't be a problem, as its mission statement is already in-line with the Grey Order's MO.

Eike also seems to have made a very favourable impression on the dwarves in this update, and being the 'apprentice to Lady Magister Mathilde Weber' will open a lot of doors with them for her. I'd like to point out that, in all of those oaths of secrecy we swore to the dwarves, there's a structure that we keep all information that we learn to ourselves and our apprentices.

Dwarves take apprentices seriously, and Mathilde's apprentice is going to garner a lot of interest.
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It's not that she's going to be legally barred, it's that she's going to have to do two jobs at once. Consider our AP commitments, and then imagine what hers will be.


NSMS said:
There are stereotypes associated with each order, but that's just what they are: stereotypes. There's certainly a good amount of truth in them in that a lot of mages are like that, but you're not actually obligated to follow them or the traditional and expected path for your order; K8P is pretty much made up entirely of magisters who don't fit the traditional stereotypical mould of their order.
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Good point. Being a Grey might interfere with her work as a trade heiress more than other Colleges, but I don't think it would be too unfathomable and we're in a prime position to provide help when needed.
 
The3rdCorinthian said:
To be fair though, She would probably get along with Ranaldites pretty OK, given he and Shallya are lovers iirc.
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That's a matter of religious debate and opinion; certainly you'd find Ranaldites and Shallayans who agree with it, but equally you'll find those who are vehemently opposed to the very notion.
 
NeonLights said:
It's not that she's going to be legally barred, it's that she's going to have to do two jobs at once. Consider our AP commitments, and then imagine what hers will be.
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Far better than ours was at the start of the quest when we had to balance our job against crippling debt and a conspiracy that wanted us to work against the Empire. And that is assuming that she cannot just consider keeping the EIC helping the Empire in active ways her job.
 
Gold Celestial or Clergy are the only sensible options here.

A gold wizard would benefit enormously from running a trade empire. A Celestial would be able to benefit their trading Empire enormously. Whilst being a member of the Clergy would be neutral it's also the most socially accepted option.
 
Yep. Apprentice train all the way.

People wanted an apprentice with backstory? Here's one courtesy of Ranald. Hell, maybe Shallya's in on it as well. She's Eike's patron and our actions in the north did much to reacquaint Ranald with Salyak's mother in a more positive fashion.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Gold Celestial or Clergy are the only sensible options here.

A gold wizard would benefit enormously from running a trade empire. A Celestial would be able to benefit their trading Empire enormously. Whilst being a member of the Clergy would be neutral it's also the most socially accepted option.
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The problem I see with the clergy option is the can of worms that surrounds the 'miracle-using priests and magic users are the same' topic. Right now, per word of Boney, priests basically refuse to talk about the subject, and I'm pretty sure they've stated in the past that any wizard who openly did anything to prove Teclis' statement would have a bad time of things. Pushing Eike into the clergy on the grounds that we know she has magic potential could potentially backfire because of that. This isn't a guaranteed outcome obviously, and I'm certain there'd be ways to mitigate it, but it is worth bearing in mind when considering the option.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Far better than ours was at the start of the quest when we had to balance our job against crippling debt and a conspiracy that wanted us to work against the Empire. And that is assuming that she cannot just consider keeping the EIC helping the Empire in active ways her job.
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It's possible that the Grey Order could consider economic development a big enough positive, but we don't know for sure. We had the option to forge economic ties with the EIC, and theoretically that could count for diplomacy. But gauging if that's possible for Eike is a wash because she's twelve right now, and we don't have any idea who's in charge of giving out orders. We don't know what they would consider acceptable service to the Empire, or what forms that should take.

And there's her faith to consider as well. Our path to success is built on mounds of bodies, and one the Grey Order's responsibilities is delivering extrajudicial sanctions, not to mention all the other dangers they deal with. Like hell any Grey would walk unarmed. So why should we give her troubles with her faith, when she could get good results brewing medicine or scrying the stars?
 
NSMS said:
The problem I see with the clergy option is the can of worms that surrounds the 'miracle-using priests and magic users are the same' topic. Right now, per word of Boney, priests basically refuse to talk about the subject, and I'm pretty sure they've stated in the past that any wizard who openly did anything to prove Teclis' statement would have a bad time of things. Pushing Eike into the clergy on the grounds that we know she has magic potential could potentially backfire because of that. This isn't a guaranteed outcome obviously, and I'm certain there'd be ways to mitigate it, but it is worth bearing in mind when considering the option.
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I don't see this as an issue, Mathilde simply doesn't have to report the issue to them or any one else and can make sure Eike has been inducted into a priestly order, Whilemena is quite capable of keeping a secret.
 
NSMS said:
The problem I see with the clergy option is the can of worms that surrounds the 'miracle-using priests and magic users are the same' topic. Right now, per word of Boney, priests basically refuse to talk about the subject, and I'm pretty sure they've stated in the past that any wizard who openly did anything to prove Teclis' statement would have a bad time of things. Pushing Eike into the clergy on the grounds that we know she has magic potential could potentially backfire because of that. This isn't a guaranteed outcome obviously, and I'm certain there'd be ways to mitigate it, but it is worth considering.
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And I might agree with you if Mat wouldn't be the one doing the pushing, and the Clergy being pushed wasn't Shallya. IF there is one goddess who's understand Mat not wanting to subject Eike to the scorn and social isolation that comes with being a Wizard, Shallya would. As for the magic question, Mat's a Grey Ranaldite with divine attention. They could work something out, if keeping the magic/priest thing secret is that important. Keeping secrets is literally in her job description.
 
NeonLights said:
It's possible that the Grey Order could consider economic development a big enough positive, but we don't know for sure. We had the option to forge economic ties with the EIC, and theoretically that could count for diplomacy. But gauging if that's possible for Eike is a wash because she's twelve right now, and we don't have any idea who's in charge of giving out orders. We don't know what they would consider acceptable service to the Empire, or what forms that should take.

And there's her faith to consider as well. Our path to success is built on mounds of bodies, and one the Grey Order's responsibilities is delivering extrajudicial sanctions, not to mention all the other dangers they deal with. Like hell any Grey would walk unarmed. So why should we give her troubles with her faith, when she could get good results brewing medicine or scrying the stars?
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Keep in mind that her first reaction to us saying that Pan is good with plants was to ask 'but she can still fight right?' I do not think she is a pacifist of any stripe.
 
So this is what I'm thinking of voting in terms of Eike.

[ ] Wizard
- [ ] Let Eike decide
- [ ] The Golden Order
- [ ] The Order of Life
- [ ] The Black College
- [ ] The Amber Brotherhood

Letting Eike decide herself is just obvious. Like, this is by far my preference and there's a very real chance I'll end up voting for just that alone when it comes time to tally. The benefits of having a member of the Golden Order be part of the EIC are well established by now, and I think Ghyran would be a nice fit for Eike's Shallyan faith. With it, she'll be able to help people in ways most priestesses can't. Meanwhile, we don't know how much potential Eike actually has, and Black Magisters are the absolute masters of getting the most bang for your buck (plus, Mathilde could give some useful tips in this case).

I know some people are probably a bit worried about what picking the Amber Brotherhood would entail for the EIC, but come on, read the part with Eike again. We're clearly dealing with an out-of-control horsegirl here, we need to at least put in a good word for the horse mages.
 
NeonLights said:
It's possible that the Grey Order could consider economic development a big enough positive, but we don't know for sure. We had the option to forge economic ties with the EIC, and theoretically that could count for diplomacy. But gauging if that's possible for Eike is a wash because she's twelve right now, and we don't have any idea who's in charge of giving out orders. We don't know what they would consider acceptable service to the Empire, or what forms that should take.

And there's her faith to consider as well. Our path to success is built on mounds of bodies, and one the Grey Order's responsibilities is delivering extrajudicial sanctions, not to mention all the other dangers they deal with. Like hell any Grey would walk unarmed. So why should we give her troubles with her faith, when she could get good results brewing medicine or scrying the stars?
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I mean... it's not like we follow the strictures of our own faith perfectly strictly (*looks pointedly at the greatsword we named 'wit'*), and we have ridiculous piety.
 
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