Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[SurpriseMe]

Why you should vote for waystones, beyond the more day to day reasons:

Superweapons. With the vast power of the waystones at our disposal, we could set up powerful magical enchantments that were previously unattainable. This isn't a very long term thing either--we know already that pulling power from existing waystones is understood by at least the Jades. I think that as a proof of concept and test, it would be possible to redirect that energy to lots of fun and immediately rewarding things.

 

[Absoloot]

I'm suprised the bodyguard option isn't more popular to be honest. If you take the position at face value it doesn't seem that important, but being so close to the Imperial Family would grant immense amounts of soft power in the Empire. We'd be potentially at the same level of influence as the Magister Patriarch, though without any of the hard power positions like that are afforded.

Still, the potential is there for making Mathilde a huge figure on the Empire. Getting to know all the Elector Counts, gaging the attitude of the Sigmar Pope (whatever the special title of his is) working closely with Algard and Dragomas. Not to mention being closer to Ranald, which is a neglected part of Mathilde's portfolio tbh.

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

I just think that everything we have and have learned would work well towards the Waystones and I want to tread new grounds as opposed to returning to the old. Not to mention the sheer potential inherent in the Waystones.

 

[lentil]

Can someone explain to me what makes the waystone project interesting? I don't know much about the setting so is there some knowledge I'm missing about it? I'm asking since it kind of sounds boring compared to fighting a war against vampires or dealing with dragons as loremaster.

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It's half "Researching a way to turn back the clock on the apocalypse with our star team of usually-would-never-even-talk-to-each other wizards, dwarves, and elves," and half "Indiana Jones-ing around the Warhammer world for leads/funding/assistance on the first half." To me it's going to be a good mix of adventure and interesting lore and character interactions. The greater plot relevance of making the world safer also appeals, but all of the options have that in some way. What's really exciting and unique about waystones, to me, is the combination of digging into secrets not available elsewhere, and the various parts of the setting we'll see along the way.

 

[picklepikkl]

I object to this. If you want to have a large amount of research ability, the correct choice would be [ ] Research Sabbatical. We have a research backlog that would take a dedicated period of years to get through it all, and it won't get smaller unless we stopped going on adventures and started grinding through our research activities.

If you just want a research institute in some way, that's not exclusive to Waystones at all. Certainly one of the big-ticket items we'd negotiate for as Markgraf would be some way to get help with continuing our research. You can argue that it won't be as effective in that position than it would be for Waystones, but at that point it's a marginal benefit instead of a categorical difference between the two choices.

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I basically agree with your post! I definitely agree that an Institute is not exclusive to Waystones. I'd be lobbying for it in Loremaster-at-Large as well, where we'd have more time for personal stuff, and for Bodyguard I don't think it would make sense to have it in K8P but I'm sure Heidi could arrange to hire us some minions to do research in Altdorf. My point is just due to the nature of the job, the Markgraf job is least likely to have need for research allowing us to get flexible use out of the asset, and is also most likely to have demands on our time where we're going to really want the personal actions we'd be spending on managing such a lab.

My goal here isn't "maximize the amount of research we can do on our personal projects," for which I agree Research Sabbatical is correct. My goal here is flexible parallelization of goals: how can we most efficiently progress towards multiple of our character goals at once? There were many turns in K8P where Max, Johann, or both were "wasted" -- when we weren't spending the half-AP on them on either the job or a significant personal project. This is kind of a bummer, because we don't get that AP back just because we have nothing useful for them to do. That's one of the reasons why the research institute is so desirable: it's flexible, because almost any kind of research can be done with it, and there's never a turn when we don't have something to research, so no matter what that AP isn't going to get wasted. And I want to progress goals in parallel, rather than slamming ALL RESEARCH or ALL JOB or ALL SELF-IMPROVEMENT, because that's less monotonous to read and more appealing to more of the thread -- not everyone's gonna like everything, but everyone's probably going to like something. That's why I haven't supported Research Sabbatical at all: I'd like it, but I'm pretty sure the thread would hate it. I want tools that help us parallelize, not serialize.

EDIT: That said, I do agree that, if we take Markgraf, I'd like to explore the possibility of getting a research lab from Roswita. Even half an AP we can spend on it per turn would be nice.

 

[Retrueno]

I find the suspicion and distrust of Heidi being raised as a reason to not vote Bodyguard somewhat odd. If you're concerned about the Empress being evil or doing dubious things in the heart of the empire, wouldn't it be better to be near her so we can influence the outcome of these hypothetical dubious activities?

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I think the reasoning was that Heidi would push us to compromise our morals or made us fall into a slippery slope. Personally, I consider those arguments kind of disingenuous taking into account how we haven't tried the Second Secret of Dhar despite not having any cost at all, other than us knowing what we've done.

 

[das_slash]

Why you should vote for waystones, beyond the more day to day reasons:

Superweapons. With the vast power of the waystones at our disposal, we could set up powerful magical enchantments that were previously unattainable. This isn't a very long term thing either--we know already that pulling power from existing waystones is understood by at least the Jades. I think that as a proof of concept and test, it would be possible to redirect that energy to lots of fun and immediately rewarding things.

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Yeah, we can wallow in the mud ruling Sylvania now, or arrive in 10 years with our "Mass dispel Dhar" spell and supercharged hunter-killer constructs, there is no future project that doesn't benefit from knowledge of the Waystones.

 

[lentil]

I don't see where does it say that Mathilde would be in overall charge. I was under impression that details like that would be solved after this vote.

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The simple answer is that if Mathilde is the one running around and doing the work to organize it, she's effectively in charge.

 

[Rafin]

He'd have had a hard time doing that when she was busy rebuilding the tax-code and helping to dismantle the Stirlandian League.

Having an architect on his council meant he could have the Steward doing other, highly necessary things. Like organizing logistics for the army.

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No. That just requires having an architect somewhere in the employ of high government. The Steward can still organize army logistics with a half-action less that she has to spend on the hired architect.
What we need is advisors willing to do the project of the turn with two actions while still overseeing two employees of their own (that we approve of) with a third action. People who are willing to put at least as much work into the Sylvania project as Mathilde does just by managing a full Council.

I'm suprised the bodyguard option isn't more popular to be honest. If you take the position at face value it doesn't seem that important, but being so close to the Imperial Family would grant immense amounts of soft power in the Empire. We'd be potentially at the same level of influence as the Magister Patriarch, though without any of the hard power positions like that are afforded.

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Some people don't like "petty politics" and/or dislike Heidi as a character. They'd rather have a fully trustworthy employer and clearly evil enemies.

 

[Retrueno]

I'm suprised the bodyguard option isn't more popular to be honest. If you take the position at face value it doesn't seem that important, but being so close to the Imperial Family would grant immense amounts of soft power in the Empire. We'd be potentially at the same level of influence as the Magister Patriarch, though without any of the hard power positions like that are afforded.

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I think it's because people don't want to participate in politics + not trusting Heidi.

Though imo, the difference is so little that most of it is caused by approval voting to try to make Waystones/Edgelord not win. It's to the point that I genuinely think that if the order of the votes had been different and Bodyguard and LaL had ended first and second for some time (after the first 24 hours or so), then it'd those 2 options which would be fighting to win instead of Waystones/Edgelord.

 

[SpaceSloth]

In charge might be a strong term, but put it like this: Would any dwarf agree to the leadership of an elf? And would any elf work under a dwarf? Mathilde would be the one recruiting people for the project and herding things in a hopefully positive direction, even if nominally there were to be a different leader or leaders.

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Sure, I just don't think that it would cost us 1/2 ap on every person just ensuring that they are capable of working together, unless we want to micromanage their actions. At the end of the day they would be our coworkers with their own reasons of why they are involved in the project rather than our employees.

Yes? Why wouldn't it?

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The whole project seems like something that would start with less than 10 people involved, all of them experts in their fields.
I don't see why there needs to be leader in such small group that would be capable of just discussing their course of action.
Our task for both Belegar and Abelhaim was always picked by our employer, here it would just be selected by group.

 

[Derpmind]

And I want to progress goals in parallel, rather than slamming ALL RESEARCH or ALL JOB or ALL SELF-IMPROVEMENT, because that's less monotonous to read and more appealing to more of the thread -- not everyone's gonna like everything, but everyone's probably going to like something.

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And yet it doesn't seem like anyone can agree on how hard each job will lean into ALL RESEARCH or ALL JOB. Everyone seems to have a different take on it.

...Maybe there's another angle to all this.

The thread has constantly chafed at the AP limit, but in-character Mathilde is simply someone who will dedicate herself to The Job over everything else. Thing is, sometimes we've only spent 1 AP on a turn's task; sometimes 1 AP has been all that's needed. But Mathilde has never shied away from taking every opportunity to pump more actions into the job whenever possible.

Of the two currently leading choices, one of them appears to be very on-the-job dedicated while the other appears to be very free-form. A large portion of the thread wants more free time, for research, for personal improvement, for vacation, etc. And yet prior to this that desire has consistently failed in the face of The Job. Because Mathilde, through the thread, is someone who will always prioritize helping others over her own interests. Even her newly created Battle Magic spell, the Rite of Way, isn't about personal power but instead was designed from the ground up to literally support others.

So I have to wonder: In character, is Mathilde deciding between a job that will force her to spend more time away from work, and a job where she thinks she might be able to most directly help people? Is she ok with the finality of putting one over the other? Or maybe she's be better off picking something where she won't have to confront this internal conflict, like the Bodyguard or Loremaster jobs.

 

[Redshirt Army]

The whole project seems like something that would start with less than 10 people involved, all of them experts in their fields.

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Well, sure, but they're almost certainly going to be strong personalities that won't play nicely if we just leave them alone in a box together. We have to spend two separate half-actions to manage Johann and Max, remember.

 

[Alliterate]

I'm not sure who would count this as a pro or a con, but... how often would Mathilde spontaneously break out into smaller or larger fires if she were living in Sylvania?
As I recall it happened in the Wastes on a few occasions-

Forewarned by you of the terrain ahead, by the time the Expedition reaches what you're considering to be the border of the Chaos Wastes proper everyone is braced for what they encounter, and though there's a ripple of shock through everyone present as they set eyes on it for themselves, nobody is entirely taken aback by it. Now more than ever the Rite of Way proves itself as it gets the Expedition through the rapidly-changing terrain at a fast pace and without setbacks, circling around strange ruins and mushroom copses as it pushes relentlessly north. Each day leaves you mentally drained by the effort of keeping the flow of Ulgu as free as you can of the Dhar that's all too eager to cling to and corrupt any other Wind it touches. Several times you have to put out spot fires on your robes as the Runes on your Belt purge errant Dhar, and you're starting to worry what it would mean for anyone else to wield magic here.

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All that ambient Dhar, the Belt of the Unshackled Mountain- how flammable is our tawdry-novel comfort reading?

 

[SpaceSloth]

Well, sure, but they're almost certainly going to be strong personalities that won't play nicely if we just leave them alone in a box together. We have to spend two separate half-actions to manage Johann and Max, remember.

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Yes, and we get to tell them what to do thanks to that. What I am saying is that we might not have so much control over someone like Thorek.

 

[Kingofbooks]

[X] Loremaster-at-Large of Karak Eight Peaks
[X] The Waystone Project
[X] Bodyguard and Tutor to Prince Mandred

 

[Absoloot]

Some people don't like "petty politics" and/or dislike Heidi as a character.

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The politics I get, but we don't know Heidi. There's been a grand total of 4 or 5 scenes with her over the years of quest since her introduction.

 

[ReImagined]

The politics I get, but we don't know Heidi. There's been a grand total of 4 or 5 scenes with her over the years of quest since her introduction.

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Bad first impressions last until something occurs to dispel them.

 

[GrimTheMad]

I actually like Heidi. She's fun.

There're many tings about the position that put me off, but that isn't one.

 

[silentorphan]

I kind of agree with that other quester (more than?) a few pages back: Heidi's okay when taken in small doses on occasional visits when Mathilde can deflect and tease but plain exhausting if she has to be wrangled turn after turn.

 

[Briefvoice]

I'm not voting for Waystones and have pretty much been against them, buuuuuut....

There's an argument I'm surprised I haven't seen more, and it's that if you primary interest is Mathilde as a wizard then Waystones are where it's at. I mean, the write-up we got for the Waystones job spent a long time going into the fact that her first destination would be a legendary elven city of archmages. That was like 80% of the update, explaining about this legendary city of archmages.

Remind me what race's magic Mathilde's arcane tradition was shaped around? Uh, was it fucking elves? Yes it was. In fact, let's be a little more specific. What is this legendary association of mages called?

But Tor Lithanel survived by turning to the 'Grey Lords', the organization founded by the original research expedition and bolstered by Archmages exiled from Ulthuan for unsavoury experiments. When a Dwarven Throng destroyed Kor Immarmor and were on their way to do the same to Tor Lithanel, the leaders of the city called upon the Grey Lords, and the Throng never emerged from the forest they were marching through. As a bastion of safety in a sea of angry Dwarves it swelled with Elven refugees from across the Old World, and that immigration formed the basis for their modern society consisting of the aristocratic 'Cityborn' descendants of the pre-War settlers and the 'Forestborn' underclass that live in treetop dwellings. And presumably the Grey Lords still fit into there somewhere, enjoying the protections and privileges that their defence of Tor Lithanel bought them.

What this amounts to is that the city at the heart of Laurelorn has stood for over five thousand years, and was originally founded by magical researchers. That is, to put it mildly, rather promising.

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THE GREY LORDS. Just saying. If your ambition in life is to see Mathilde's magic "go to 11" and have her be the best wizard ever, this is definitely the job.

Forget about the waystones for a minute. If Mathilde fails to find a way to bring a Waystone on-line , but in the process learns a bunch of phat elven magical secrets created by renegade archmages who delved too deeply and too greedily , can you really call that a failure?

I recognize the irony in pumping an option I'm not voting for, but I can't believe no one is talking about the elven magical secrets this might unlock.

There, I said it.

 

[Retrueno]

The politics I get, but we don't know Heidi. There's been a grand total of 4 or 5 scenes with her over the years of quest since her introduction.

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Ross has had more or less the same number of scenes. And iirc the only reason her opinion of us changed (and from that point our opinion of her, ike some kind redemption arc) was after we got rid of Alakazam.

 

[ImperatorV]

THE GREY LORDS. Just saying. If your ambition in life is to see Mathilde's magic "go to 11" and have her be the best wizard ever, this is definitely the job.

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This is the best argument I have seen for Waystones so far. I'm still not going to vote for it, but my opposition has decreased.

 

[Fayhem]

I basically agree with your post! I definitely agree that an Institute is not exclusive to Waystones. I'd be lobbying for it in Loremaster-at-Large as well, where we'd have more time for personal stuff, and for Bodyguard I don't think it would make sense to have it in K8P but I'm sure Heidi could arrange to hire us some minions to do research in Altdorf.

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Two things I want to say in response to this, focusing heavily on the location part. One, unless Boney says I'm reading this wrong then having a research institute in K8P will be logistically feasible no matter where we're working, as long as it's not Swamp Town:

- Mathilde has several logistical options available to her that will allow her to maintain her home and friends in Karak Eight Peaks while working elsewhere, unless that elsewhere is Swamp Town.

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Two, unless the Research Institute is located outside of the Empire and not owned by the Empire we cannot have any non-Magister magic users be a part of it without violating the Articles of Magic:

This is the major sticking point.

Within the Empire, and within Imperial Institutions, only Empire Wizards can study magic.

So we can't:
• Create an Imperial institution that has as members Runesmiths, Ice Witches, Damsels, etc.

We can:
• Create an Imperial institution that contains College Magisters, and works with a Dwarven institution that contains Runesmiths, a Bretonnian institution that contains Damsels, an Ulthuani institution that contains Loremasters, etc, so long as those institutions are outside of the Empire.

@BoneyM , am I getting this right?

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Yes. It's when you try to extend the Imperial umbrella over the whole shebang that it gets messy.

So if I understand it right, as long as our potential branch of college is hired by Belegar we do not have to worry about working with other magic users ?

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Yes, then it would fall under Karaz Ankor laws and Mathilde would be a part of it under Article 12.

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The "owned by the Empire" part might be finagled as Redshirt Army suggested, by having multiple parallel institutions, though that seems much messier and more complicated than would be at all ideal. But "outside the Empire" is non-negotiable and not AFAICT entirely unamenable to finagling, at least without some really extra stuff like "build an embassy just for me that's actually not usable as an embassy because it's my research institute." So IMO the Institute a) should be done, no matter where we go, and b) should be at K8P and built with the Boon.

 

[Shard]

I'm not voting for Waystones and have pretty much been against them, buuuuuut....

There's an argument I'm surprised I haven't seen more, and it's that if you primary interest is Mathilde as a wizard then Waystones are where it's at. I mean, the write-up we got for the Waystones job spent a long time going into the fact that her first destination would be a legendary elven city of archmages. That was like 80% of the update, explaining about this legendary city of archmages.

Remind me what race's magic Mathilde's arcane tradition was shaped around? Uh, was it fucking elves? Yes it was. In fact, let's be a little more specific. What is this legendary association of mages called?



THE GREY LORDS. Just saying. If your ambition in life is to see Mathilde's magic "go to 11" and have her be the best wizard ever, this is definitely the job.

Forget about the waystones for a minute. If Mathilde fails to find a way to bring a Waystone on-line , but in the process learns a bunch of phat elven magical secrets created by renegade archmages who delved too deeply and too greedily , can you really call that a failure?

I recognize the irony in pumping an option I'm not voting for, but I can't believe no one is talking about the elven magical secrets this might unlock.

There, I said it.

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I have to agree with the others that this is probably the best argument for Waystones so far. It makes it sound so much more fun and interesting.