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So legally speaking, the Colleges could absolutely grant a temporary/honorary Magisterhood to any given foreign national, at which point they would be totally free to work together as desired.
Ignoring the Ulthuani Ambassadors Shadow Warrior entourage works because we're not drawing attention to any of the obvious gaps in the law. That's how and why it works.
Dubious use of clauses like "technical swearing of loyalty to the Empire, oh look they're a Magister" is drawing attention to those same fractures. It will open up all the cans of worms everyone sensible should want to stay firmly closed.
 
So legally speaking, the Colleges could absolutely grant a temporary/honorary Magisterhood to any given foreign national, at which point they would be totally free to work together as desired. The bit about the Magisters needing to be loyal to Empire law, the Emperor, and the Colleges over any mundane authorities they're employed by could be a sticking point (both in said foreign nationals accepting the title and in the idea that a foreign national could be trusted to hold those loyalties), but that route would actually allow the Colleges to collaborate with any group they wanted (provided that group was willing to jump through necessary legal hoops for the sake of said Colleges being completely in the clear legally).

During the Waagh and Peace lecture there were international magical user being legally allowed to be present what arguably be a subject of military magical doctrine. Sure only usable against a force of destruction but its a precedent.

The main thing I being a problem with the Joint Research is the use of the Great Deed. We can totally create a neutral ground with only our boon, but the moment we insert the Empire I dont think they can supply much beyond perhaps initial material and/or technical expertise to set up labs etc.
We shouldn't treat Belebro flexibility with the be boon Transcendental the same way we treat a great deed.
 
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They have existing practices of turning a blind eye to certain foreign mages, so as not to start a war with everyone they're not constantly at war with anyway. Fighting an uphill battle to further change the laws, beyond what he'd already bled for, to legally enshrine something that was happening anyway, doesn't seem like something he'd have prioritised.

But as the QM has repeatedly explained, this is only a problem if people want to establish some sort of international magical research institution either in Imperial territory and/or under the official mandate of the Articles of Magic (aka Imperial Law).

The solution is obvious: If you want to do this, don't build it in the Empire and don't include the Articles of Magic in its charter. Build it in an allied polity and make it open for Imperial Magisters to attend and share knowledge with other factions.
So the obvious solution is to build it in Dwarven territory. If only we could ask some Dwarf king about for a favor like that.

Yeah, which was a suggestion that Boney shot down because the empire does not recognise foreign magisters as legitimate in any scenario. Reposting the discussion.

Thank you. Very well, here's my plan. I think we can:

1: Establish the joint research project under K8P who acts and is recognised as a mostly neutral actor
2: Argue that participating in it is a wizard's right, maybe even obligation, because advancing the magical theory of all civilization factions better allows everyone, including the Empire, to oppose dark magic and the forces of dark magic, something that is an obligation of magisters according to the Empire and which can be argued to be one of the founding ideals of the Empire (which according to the articles take precendence over everything)
3: Argue that, as such, a joint research center would constitute a permanent alliance against the forces of dark magic and destruction (greenskin, vampires, dhar users, chaos), recognizing, as per the ideals of Sigmar, that war against such is greater than other wars. Such alliance doesn't mean involved countries do not war, just that they informally agree by their mere participation (so that no one has to sign anything) that magical research which benefits everyone (against chaos, dhar magic etc) deserves priority over other wars.
4: As per the terms of the above, every involved country can de facto certify its own magic users to join the joint research program
5: Thus, wizards would have the right to participate and even involve others under the aegis of an research alliance against the forces of dark magic, which takes precedence over everything according to the articles, as long as every magister they cooperate with is lawfully recognised by their country of origin.

It won't necessarilly be an easy sell (especially with our diplo), but I think it does bypass the hard stonewall, letting us only concern ourselves with political will.
The only reason the Empire isn't trying to burn Ice Witches and Damsels at this very moment is that legally they're considered clergy. There is exactly one foreign magic user that Imperial law recognizes as legitimate, and that's Teclis.
 
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During the Waagh and Peace lecture there were international magical user being legally allowed to be present what arguably be a subject of military magical doctrine. Sure only usable against a force of destruction but its a precedent.

Except the QM specifically said it wasn't strictly legal and it absolutely was not to be used as precedent.
 
I still hold that our Gread Deeds are best held to be used to boost Ranalds influence in the Empire - Backing up whatever future plays Heidi does to get Him recognition or starting our own if the political environment suites it. I assume we could spend two Great Deeds at once - one to get Ranald brought up at a Diet and another to lobby for him?

I think firstly, you misunderstand the research Institute - Mathilde doesn't necessarily have to run that thing day to day, she could just as easily appoint a deputy.

Secondly, we don't have a Ranald backlog that is a point of contention in thread politics every turn vote - we have a giant research backlog that is the subject of eternal AP Starvation. We have a Windherder trait with no easily discernable path of being used right now due to said AP Starvation. Had we chosen the Mountain Saint of Ranald and chosen to get more involved in the cult of Ranald, your proposal narratively made more sense (partly because we probably would have a firmer idea of how the cult of Ranald functions, and could be strengthened), but I think narratively, our own relationship with Ranald is... rather personal right now. To whom is the Great Deed benefiting? Lobbying for what for Ranald? His cult? His recognition? Does Ranald want said Recognition to begin with?

How does this actually address anything thread discourse has overwhelmingly asked for, for months now? Those are open questions that need to be answered. It's politically impossible to convince the thread to do less research, so anything that changes the equation alleviates alot of the tensions running in the thread.
 
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Hmmm? But my original plan which got the reply of ose magisters not being recognised was using K8P as a neutral authority under which the organization would exist, with the anti destro for lack of a better term) alliance aegis existing to allow magisters to join it. This is why this point stuck so much to me, because if that didn't fly, it implied that the Empire required sovereighty over magic users of the entire world, not just its grounds.

Step 1 of the plan was fine. It was steps 2 through 5 that shone a spotlight on it and screamed to the world that Magisters would be studying magic with non-Magisters.

Yeah, and it would also be stupid to not amend said law when their at relative peace so that the potential problem no longer exists.

Like how does amending a document remove legitimacy? Law is not some ironbound unchangeable thing, it is meant to adapt to the times.

Take explicit WoQM for an answer. I don't know what's got you on an anti-Empire kick but it's really getting old.

So legally speaking, the Colleges could absolutely grant a temporary/honorary Magisterhood to any given foreign national, at which point they would be totally free to work together as desired. The bit about the Magisters needing to be loyal to Empire law, the Emperor, and the Colleges over any mundane authorities they're employed by could be a sticking point (both in said foreign nationals accepting the title and in the idea that a foreign national could be trusted to hold those loyalties), but that route would actually allow the Colleges to collaborate with any group they wanted (provided that group was willing to jump through necessary legal hoops for the sake of said Colleges being completely in the clear legally).

Not 'could be a sticking point', absolutely would be an insurmountable obstacle. Foreign magic users aren't going to swear fealty to the Empire and Sigmar. That would be treasonous for all of them and heretical for most of them.

So if I'm understanding it right:
Empire College Branch working with non-College wizards on magic == Bad
Empire College Branch outside the Empire working with non-College wizards on magic == Bad, but just a little less
A non-Empire institution hiring Empire Wizards == Maybe ok, though we should avoid having people poking it too hard.

So if we want an international research institute, we should go at it from the dwarf side.

Yes, but not maybe ok, definitely ok. Article 12 explicitly clears employment by non-hostile foreign powers.
12. Magisters are permitted to pursue agreements of employment with any persons or organisations: civil and religious, public and private, noble and mercantile, providing their employers are not enemies of Sigmar's Holy Empire or the people and that will not lead to the breaking of any of these Articles.
 
Except the QM specifically said it wasn't strictly legal and it absolutely was not to be used as precedent.

Point. So we cant expect it legal support if an Araby mage that study in K8P decided to enter the Empire. But it means they would be willing to turn a blind eye in us working with them outside the Empire. At least in the !burnheretic! way.
 
Magisters alone shall be permitted to study magic and perform such spells for the good of the Empire.

This is the major sticking point.

Within the Empire, and within Imperial Institutions, only Empire Wizards can study magic.

So we can't:
• Create an Imperial institution that has as members Runesmiths, Ice Witches, Damsels, etc.

We can:
• Create an Imperial institution that contains College Magisters, and works with a Dwarven institution that contains Runesmiths, a Bretonnian institution that contains Damsels, an Ulthuani institution that contains Loremasters, etc, so long as those institutions are outside of the Empire.

@BoneyM , am I getting this right?
 
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Yeah, which was my suggestion that Boney shot down because the empire does not recognise foreign magisters as legitimate in any scenario.
Well, yes. The Empire won't recognise the legal standing of any mages not produced by the Imperial Collages of Magic. Meaning, any non-imperial spellcasters we were invite/hire to attend will remain legally unwelcome in the Empire, just as they are now. And any graduates we produce will also be equally unwelcome within the borders of the Empire.

Now, if this goes well and the place establishes some international cred, graduates will probably eventually get slotted into the same "we'll turn a blind eye" position as Damsels and Ice Witches. Eventually. Probably.

But in the meantime, it'll still be a safe place for Imperial Magisters to attend and share research with non-imperial magical traditions, and take some of that research back to Altdorf.

The sticking point seems to be questers wanting to make this an official, legally recognised and approved Imperial institution. Or at least, something officially in partnership with the Empire. Which legally can't happen, and culturally, we'd be a looong way off from being able to manage, when certain factions of the Empire still barely tolerate the Collages themselves.

If questers want this, they'll just have to stick it outside of Imperial jurisdiction and accept it'll never be officially endorsed.
 
So if I understand it right, as long as our potential branch of college is hired by Belegar we do not have to worry about working with other magic users ?
 
This is the major sticking point.

Within the Empire, and within Imperial Institutions, only Empire Wizards can study magic.

So we can't:
• Create an Imperial institution that has as members Runesmiths, Ice Witches, Damsels, etc.

We can:
• Create an Imperial institution that contains College Magisters, and works with a Dwarven institution that contains Runesmiths, a Bretonnian institution that contains Damsels, an Ulthuani institution that contains Loremasters, etc, so long as those institutions are outside of the Empire.

@BoneyM , am I getting this right?
Or we create a non-national institution that then hires on Magisters, and avoid any of this weirdness that results from trying to make it officially part of multiple separate nations?
 
This is the major sticking point.

Within the Empire, and within Imperial Institutions, only Empire Wizards can study magic.

So we can't:
• Create an Imperial institution that has as members Runesmiths, Ice Witches, Damsels, etc.

We can:
• Create an Imperial institution that contains College Magisters, and works with a Dwarven institution that contains Runesmiths, a Bretonnian institution that contains Damsels, an Ulthuani institution that contains Loremasters, etc, so long as those institutions are outside of the Empire.

@BoneyM , am I getting this right?

Yes. It's when you try to extend the Imperial umbrella over the whole shebang that it gets messy.

So if I understand it right, as long as our potential branch of college is hired by Belegar we do not have to worry about working with other magic users ?

Yes, then it would fall under Karaz Ankor laws and Mathilde would be a part of it under Article 12.
 
Yes, but not maybe ok, definitely ok. Article 12 explicitly clears employment by non-hostile foreign powers.
12. Magisters are permitted to pursue agreements of employment with any persons or organisations: civil and religious, public and private, noble and mercantile, providing their employers are not enemies of Sigmar's Holy Empire or the people and that will not lead to the breaking of any of these Articles.
Good to know. Though I imagine there's a sliding scale between "Actually a international/dwarf institute hiring Empire wizards" and "College Branch with some names hastily changed". The second might get some unamused reactions, though K8Ps is far enough nobody would be too bothered.
 
This is the major sticking point.

Within the Empire, and within Imperial Institutions, only Empire Wizards can study magic.

So we can't:
• Create an Imperial institution that has as members Runesmiths, Ice Witches, Damsels, etc.

We can:
• Create an Imperial institution that contains College Magisters, and works with a Dwarven institution that contains Runesmiths, a Bretonnian institution that contains Damsels, an Ulthuani institution that contains Loremasters, etc, so long as those institutions are outside of the Empire.

@BoneyM , am I getting this right?
Honestly I would be happy with this being just an Empire-Karaz Ankor project, the other lores would be fine but my main interest right now is to reverse engineer the Elf-Runelord creations, or at least set us on that path.

And Dwarfs can't do magic, as in its physically impossible for them to do so, i wonder if we could use that to argue that they are a natural exception to the rule, as study of magic by them can't result in practice of magic by non-empire aligned beings.
 
Good to know. Though I imagine there's a sliding scale between "Actually a international/dwarf institute hiring Empire wizards" and "College Branch with some names hastily changed". The second might get some unamused reactions, though K8Ps is far enough nobody would be too bothered.

Yeah, as long as it doesn't go out of its way to draw attention to itself, being all the way at K8P would likely let it sail smoothly through the grey areas.
 
Step 1 of the plan was fine. It was steps 2 through 5 that shone a spotlight on it and screamed to the world that Magisters would be studying magic with non-Magisters.

I may need to sleep because it is late and I may not be parsing something. I really, really want to apologise because I feel that I am getting obnoxious, because there is clearly something that I am missing and I read the articles 15 times each and I cannot find it.

Articles 4 and 5 explicitly state that magisters are free to pursue all magic not classified as dark, so them learning from foreign magic users is not a breach.

The research center is not at the grounds of the empire or under its jurisdiction in any way, so foreigners practicing magic is not a breach unless the Empire claims worldwide sovereighty among magic users.

The articles do not explicitly forbid passing college knowledge on non initiates, (it does imply that, but not explicitly so whatever other law exists at any time factors in, which would be K8P law in this case) it would just usually stumble on article 13, which, in this particular case, does not apply.

Therefore studying magic with non magisters is ok as long as the magic is non dark and the studying is done outside the Empire's borders.

Articles per the quest for reference of other posters:

Articles 1-15 of The Articles Of Imperial Magic, written by Magnus the Pious.

1. The first obedience of every Magister must be to the ideals and laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire of which these Articles form a part; then to he who is rightfully elected Emperor of Sigmar's Holy Empire; then to the Supreme Patriarch of the Colleges of Magic; then to the laws and ideals of their Order; then to the Patriarch of their Order; then to the authorities that each Magister may be required to serve in the course of his duties; then to other superiors within their Orders.

2. No Magister may obstruct in malice or for financial or political gain the rulings of the Emperor, nor may they seek to overthrow him for these reasons.

3. Every Magister of said Colleges must adhere to the laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire, regardless of the province, region, or city-state, just as any loyal citizen must, except that the Magisters alone shall be permitted to study magic and perform such spells for the good of the Empire.

4. The Colleges are free to study, document, practice, and experiment with the arcane forces of magic that are present in this world, provided they adhere to the restrictions laid down by Teclis of Ulthuan, keep the good of Sigmar's Holy Empire in their hearts and minds, and obey the Articles of this document.

5. The Colleges may bestow as they see fit upon all their own initiates full rights to study, document, practice, and experiment with the arcane forces of magic that are present in this world and also take apprentices to themselves to pass on such knowledge and wisdom as may be part of their Lore and for the good of the Empire.

6. No Magister may cast a spell or enchantment outside of the theatre of war and in public view without first being requested to by the Emperor, the Electors of Sigmar's Holy Empire, or another legitimate employer as defined by the Articles of this document. All spells and enchantments cast without these permission may only be done so with and for demonstrably good reason.

7. No Magister may ever study the Forbidden Lores of the Daemonic Powers, nor the unholy ways of Necromancy, nor any other sorcery or witchcraft that utilises the wicked powers of Dark Magic. Any Magister found disregarding this Article is guilty of an Abominable Act and is both Heretic and Traitor and will be put to sword and fire immediately.

8. The Colleges must respond favourably to any reasonable request for specific service from any Elector of Sigmar's Holy Empire.

9. The Colleges must be ready to render service to the armies of the Emperor and the Electors of the Empire upon request, unless such service aids in the seceding of an Imperial province from the Empire, or unless such service is intended to cause overt harm to the Electoral System, or to the authority of the Emperor who resides upon Sigmar's Throne, or to the unity of purpose and identity that marks Sigmar's Holy Empire, as indeed it was so sorely afflicted throughout the dark centuries of the False Emperors.

10. The Colleges must grant upon request protection for all such diplomatic missions and any other tasks of defence or warfare as are required by the duly elected Emperor of Sigmar's Holy Empire.

11. All Magisters may expect to receive accommodation, benefits, respect, and fair treatment, as would befit any noble of Sigmar's Holy Empire, while in the employ of the Electors of Sigmar's Holy Empire.

12. Magisters are permitted to pursue agreements of employment with any persons or organisations: civil and religious, public and private, noble and mercantile, providing their employers are not enemies of Sigmar's Holy Empire or the people and that will not lead to the breaking of any of these Articles.

13. All Magisters are required to seek out magic users as may exist within the bounds of Sigmar's Holy Empire to ascertain their suitability to join one of the Orders of Magic, or else report them the Holy Orders of the Templars of Sigmar, or else destroy them if they prove to be of immediate and grave menace to Sigmar's People.

14. All Magisters are required to render such aid as is deemed necessary to the Holy Orders of the Templars of Sigmar, should said Templars provide satisfactory proof that the servant of malignancy they face is beyond their capacity to capture or destroy without magical means.

15. All Magisters are required to exert themselves to seek out and counter such destructive and anti-Imperial machinations, practices, peoples, and creatures that are beyond the means of civil authorities and Sigmar's Templars to counter, but yet still serve the Daemon Gods or advance the corruption of Imperial citizens through any sorcerous or infernal means. This shall be the prime concern and purpose of the Colleges, their Orders and the Magisters belonging to them, and to fail in this duty is to render void all the Articles of this document and make obsolete their permission to practise arcane arts without hindrance.
 
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I'm not sure if it's the new years booze, me going nuts, or if the thread madness has taken hold, but I'm having trouble following the layers of recursive loopholes.
 
Yes. It's when you try to extend the Imperial umbrella over the whole shebang that it gets messy.



Yes, then it would fall under Karaz Ankor laws and Mathilde would be a part of it under Article 12.
I would think that 1: would be an easier sell to the empire (Our research centre that works with other groups but brings back all the shines to the empire while the others only get what they are helping with.

while 2 might get less investment: (Karaz Ankor gets all the shines while we only get what our Wizards are helping with.

plus, 1 helps spread imperial institutional influence in this part of the world, 2 doesn't.

I may need to sleep because it is late and I may not be parsing something. I really, really want to apologise because I feel that I am getting obnoxious, because there is clearly something that I am missing and I read the articles 15 times each and I cannot find it.

Articles 4 and 5 explicitly state that magisters are free to pursue all magic not classified as dark, so them learning from foreign magic users is not a breach.

The research center is not at the grounds of the empire or under its jurisdiction in any way, so foreigners practicing magic is not a breach unless the Empire claims worldwide sovereighty among magic users.

The articles do not explicitly forbid passing college knowledge on non initiates, (it does imply that, but not explicitly so whatever other law exists at any time factors in) it would just usually stumble on article 13, which, in this particular case, does not apply.

Therefore studying magic with non magisters is ok as long as the magic is non dark and the studying is done outside the Empire's borders.

Articles per the quest for reference of other posters:

its because you're looking at it as a pure law puzzle rather as something that has political, culture elements.

the average imperial think every magic not from the colleges is dark magic. with only some groups form friendly political acters getting diplomatic 'see no evil'.

your trying to find loopholes in something the other side will be happy to mess with as well if that door is opened.
 
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Yeah, as long as it doesn't go out of its way to draw attention to itself, being all the way at K8P would likely let it sail smoothly through the grey areas.
...So, how would this mesh with spending Great Deeds to get a Branch College? Not at all, and we go through an entirely different process on the dwarf side? Set up the College, then have Belegar hire it for cooperation with dwarves? There's just been several clarifications and suggestions that I'm having difficulty following the paperwork trail, so to speak.
 
Ok so now Mathilde needs to make friends with the ice witches , damsels, Arabia sorcerers , and so on. So they can create their own magical institutions at eight peaks.
 
It does seem like using the BOON to set up a research institute where Belegar hires wizards to staff it is becoming a more attractive option, anyway. Because he can also hire runesmiths and any magic user who will work for money.
 
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