Why would they? What would that accomplish for them?
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Why would they? What would that accomplish for them?
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
All three of them? Impressive investment on their part.
- Location
- Greece
See, thing is, Boney's statement just now imply that it IS law, not politics:
And I do think there is room for creative interpretation in
because the implying actor giving permission is the empire, meaning that foreign citizens submit to permission as per their country, unless the Empire claims monarchy over the entire world and demands every magic user to be loyal to itself. A permission from a diplomatic alliance would be orthogonal to the matter, as those people submit to different, allied rulers, and just as no country would dare prosecute a visiting general that holds his country's nuclear codes just because the law states that only the state of that country holds nuclear weapons, so it would apply to extant permissions under the rule that such extant permission does not allow those people to use said magic to flout the other laws of the Empire.
(It also sounds, to me, like a terrible oversight of Teclis, I just cannot fathom how the articles would have no recognision of elven mages, which is why I am trying so hard to loophole it, it seems inconceivable to me that such a well written article would not recognise Teclis's college as lawful, because the stupidity of having to go to war with the elves when someone is stupid enough to poke, and yes, when, Dieter IV exists, is the kind of thing the articles left the right loopholes to avoidd in every other scenario. I am actually trying really hard to comprehend how all this even functions when the tower of Ulthuan is unrecognizable by imperial law)
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Legally obliging the Empire to kill all these damn dirty magic-users polluting Sigmar's glorious Empire with their very presence?
It's entirely possible I'm misunderstanding the nature of their zealotry, though. Maybe the really passionate ones are being held back by the smarter ones who see this as burning political goodwill for insufficient gain.
- Location
- Aotearoa
...because even the most fanatical Grand Theogonist doesn't want to start a war with Ulthuan? Or if they do, they don't remain Grand Theogonist for long.
- Location
- California
And Bretonnia, Kislev, Estalia, Tilea, and theoretically Cathay. At the same time.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Well I was thinking it would only take one hardliner to blow the lid on it, but maybe you don't get to be so important you can't be suppressed without learning enough politics to not do that.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Hey, if a pregnant(?) Empress can be investigated and quietly assassinated on the strength of a couple of letters after her name on a list...
- Pronouns
- It/They
You know... I would have though that Magnus would have been smarter than that...
The full articles are in the Collection of Important Information if anyone wants a refresh on them, by the way.
Other than the references to Dark Magic and daemonic lords and such, the only one of the articles that seems on point for non-College magic users is this one.
If there's a non-Imperial magic user inside the Empire but they don't seem malefic, it seems like the only responsibility of the Colleges is to report them to the Templars of Sigmar.
TEMPLARS OF SIGMAR: Grrrrr, there's a magic user here! Should we go burn him alive?
EMPEROR: No, he's here under a diplomatic visa. Don't burn him alive.
TEMPLARS: Grrrrrr. Someday buddy, someday!
COLLEGES: Look, we checked out he wasn't using dark magic and we reported him. We did our job.
TEMPLARS: You invited him to a lecture!
COLLEGES: We were ascertaining his suitability to join by showing a sampling the sort of cool knowledges that you could get from the Colleges. We didn't let him cast spells or anything. Buzz off.
Other than the references to Dark Magic and daemonic lords and such, the only one of the articles that seems on point for non-College magic users is this one.
If there's a non-Imperial magic user inside the Empire but they don't seem malefic, it seems like the only responsibility of the Colleges is to report them to the Templars of Sigmar.
TEMPLARS OF SIGMAR: Grrrrr, there's a magic user here! Should we go burn him alive?
EMPEROR: No, he's here under a diplomatic visa. Don't burn him alive.
TEMPLARS: Grrrrrr. Someday buddy, someday!
COLLEGES: Look, we checked out he wasn't using dark magic and we reported him. We did our job.
TEMPLARS: You invited him to a lecture!
COLLEGES: We were ascertaining his suitability to join by showing a sampling the sort of cool knowledges that you could get from the Colleges. We didn't let him cast spells or anything. Buzz off.
The White Tower of Hoeth is not under Imperial authority on account of being in Saphery, so the Articles have no bearing on it. If it teleported to Reikland one day, then the Articles would become relevant to it. The Articles deal with magic only when it occurs in the Empire. And yes, that does mean that foreign magic-users are legally barred from the Empire. It was written at a time when the law said magic users were universally burned, so it carved out an exception for those that swear fealty to the Colleges. It didn't exclude people like Damsels and Ice Witches and Elven mages, they were already legally excluded and there were already legal fictions in place to work around them.
The only reason this has become a sticking point is people are talking about creating an organization that is 1) explicitly under Imperial authority and 2) explicitly works with foreign magic users.
The tubthumpers on street corners might be all for that, but the Grand Theogonist isn't losing sleep because somewhere there's a Damsel on the Empire's soil. He'd definitely lose sleep over the blame for war with Bretonnia being pinned on him, though.
He was smart enough not to spend political goodwill on something that wasn't a problem.
- Pronouns
- It/They
I mean, yeah it wasn't a problem at that exact moment, but there are multiple nations that the empire is non-hostile with that have their magic user's.
a little bit of Foresight is kind of important for a leader you know?
I feel like it needs to be pointed out that the Cult of Sigmar is not actually full of ideots.
most of the top brass is actually very very smart.
but what they do have is agendas, beliefs and goals that from outside might look dumb but are the consequences of a series of logical steps.
they sided with Dieter IV: because getting ride of the Wizerds is a big goal for them and this was a chance of a lifetime to do it, even if it was not ideal, so they rolled the dice. (they lost, but from their view, it was a golden opportunity. and in that... they weren't wrong per say.)
killing Ice witches and damsels won't make them go away forever, and would only hinder their efforts to spread the name of sigmar into the dukedoms or Kislv. so why would they?
these people are not dumb, even if you think their goals are.
that's what makes them dangerous.
most of the top brass is actually very very smart.
but what they do have is agendas, beliefs and goals that from outside might look dumb but are the consequences of a series of logical steps.
they sided with Dieter IV: because getting ride of the Wizerds is a big goal for them and this was a chance of a lifetime to do it, even if it was not ideal, so they rolled the dice. (they lost, but from their view, it was a golden opportunity. and in that... they weren't wrong per say.)
killing Ice witches and damsels won't make them go away forever, and would only hinder their efforts to spread the name of sigmar into the dukedoms or Kislv. so why would they?
these people are not dumb, even if you think their goals are.
that's what makes them dangerous.
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that's what everyone is saying at you! don't look at the law, look at the politics!
It's not like all he had to do was write the law that said Damsels were fine and then decided he didn't feel like it and went to the beach to go surfing. He was busy stitching an Empire back together that had been fractured for centuries. He had a thousand things to deal with that were already problems, it would have been stupid to neglect those in favour of something that might be a problem someday.
- Location
- Greece
Hmmm? But my original plan which got the reply of ose magisters not being recognised was using K8P as a neutral authority under which the organization would exist, with the anti destro (for lack of a better term) alliance aegis existing to allow magisters to join it. This is why this point stuck so much to me, because if that didn't fly, it implied that the Empire required sovereighty over magic users of the entire world, not just its grounds.
Firstly, that is what you and only you are saying to me.
Secondly, I tried to and Boney replied the law would stonewall me even if politics shifted.
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- Pronouns
- It/They
Yeah, and it would also be stupid to not amend said law when their at relative peace so that the potential problem no longer exists.
Like how does amending a document remove legitimacy? Law is not some ironbound unchangeable thing, it is meant to adapt to the times.
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I'm sorry, but you presented something my brain understood as a sort of puzzle and I couldn't resist.
No rewriting of the Articles can be made (for legitimacy/religious reasons) but there are a couple of loopholes I can see in them as written. The biggest and most relevant is that the Articles don't actually define any requirements to be a Magister, merely a set of privileges they get and laws about what they can/cannot do. In fact, the bit about the Colleges being able to take apprentices is remarkably flexible, just saying that they can bestow the privileges as they see fit. We also know that the Colleges have the power to strip Magisters of their titles.
So legally speaking, the Colleges could absolutely grant a temporary/honorary Magisterhood to any given foreign national, at which point they would be totally free to work together as desired. The bit about the Magisters needing to be loyal to Empire law, the Emperor, and the Colleges over any mundane authorities they're employed by could be a sticking point (both in said foreign nationals accepting the title and in the idea that a foreign national could be trusted to hold those loyalties), but that route would actually allow the Colleges to collaborate with any group they wanted (provided that group was willing to jump through necessary legal hoops for the sake of said Colleges being completely in the clear legally).
It'd mean that legally it'd just be a branch of the Colleges where Magisters who are also members of some foreign group (say, the Tower of Hoeth) worked together with Magisters who weren't also members of said group, but that's not actually a violation of the Articles of Magic so it'd withstand a legalistic spotlight - at least until some idiot ruined it for everybody by trying to invoke the authority of the Empire/Empire law to get said foreign nationals to do something or other for some stupidly short-sighted reason.
Still, it's not like the upper ranks of the Empire technically having the power to shoot themselves (and the Empire at large) in the foot for some damn fool reason isn't something that's already come up (and needed to be planned around) in quest before.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
All right, we'll just wait until the Empire is at peace. Should be any time now.
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- It/They
Relative peace.
If its not swamped waaghs, vampire wars, or chaos invasions then its fine.
Which law, though? As I've pointed out, the Articles themselves say only that non-College, non-Chaos magic users must be "reported" and that it is legal for College wizards to use magic.
Laws saying that magic is illegal are probably not even Imperial laws, but laws of individual provinces, baronies, religious laws of the Cult of Sigmar, and that sort of thing. Carving out an exception for non-College magic users would have to be taken up with those authorities.
Or in other words, the Articles don't make magic illegal. They make a limited subset of magic legal, and leave the rest illegal.
Breadnaugt
Even in Death, I'm still Tasty
- Location
- Britland
They have existing practices of turning a blind eye to certain foreign mages, so as not to start a war with everyone they're not constantly at war with anyway. Fighting an uphill battle to further change the laws, beyond what he'd already bled for, to legally enshrine something that was happening anyway, doesn't seem like something he'd have prioritised.
But as the QM has repeatedly explained, this is only a problem if people want to establish some sort of international magical research institution either in Imperial territory and/or under the official mandate of the Articles of Magic (aka Imperial Law).
The solution is obvious: If you want to do this, don't build it in the Empire and don't include the Articles of Magic in its charter. Build it in an allied polity and make it open for Imperial Magisters to attend and share knowledge with other factions.
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So if I'm understanding it right:
Empire College Branch working with non-College wizards on magic == Bad
Empire College Branch outside the Empire working with non-College wizards on magic == Bad, but just a little less
A non-Empire institution hiring Empire Wizards == Maybe ok, though we should avoid having people poking it too hard.
So if we want an international research institute, we should go at it from the dwarf side.
Given the recent dwarfication, that works out surprisingly plausible. Of course the dwarf magic institute is lead by a dwarf, and of course it hires runesmiths. And it also makes sense that the dwarf hires some other people from her guild. This is one super weird edge case where we could probably have the dwarf institute and the college branch sensibly lead by the same individual, though a college branch is mostly useful for getting more wizards here, but far from necessary for that.
So the obvious solution is to build it in Dwarven territory. If only we could ask some Dwarf king about for a favor like that.
TimEd
Meteor maker
Do you know how rare and precious this is?
Umgi might be a wishy washy race, but we can be stupidly stubborn in regards to arbitrary change. Benefit and/or Detriment does not even need to factor in to that change.