Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I think the difference there is that disbanding the colleges would actually have a fair amount of popularity (particularly after the NoaTD)
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
-
- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
That was the Cult of Sigmar's gambit after the perfect opportunity had been served to them on a platter, and even then it didn't stick too well.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
You will note that Dieter IV did not remain Emperor for most of his life and that the colleges remained in function while they were "disbanded". Amending and thus undermining the legitimacy of the paper that grants all reasonable mages the right to live without being burned to death and gives Empire a powerful fighting force just because we don't think its fair seems like a bad juju.
EDIT: Hands down, the Articles of magic were written by Magnus the goddamn Pious, the greatest hero of Empire since times of Sigmar himself. More than two thousand years and there hasn't been holier figure than him. The reason it has so much power is the sheer weight of his legend backing it, as well as the laws remaining unchanged and people getting used to them. You try to mess with that, all you end up with is pain. Its not that it can't be done. But we could summon Skulltaker too, if we really tried, i bet.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- It/They
So the cult of sigmar proves it incompetence and malice yet again...
- Location
- Greece
This whole discussion makes me feel so divided... on the one hand, I really want to take part in the attempts to get pass the international research center stonewall, on the other hand I fear that this just annoys the QM who is just finding asoft way to say no.
Dwarves are entirely capable of being dishonest for political goals and not immedietly going Slayer. I would remind you of Prince Ulthar's situation, where all records of his being disinherited were 'lost' or 'forgotten' after his brothers killed each other over who would inherit (turn 28 social part 1). They're generally more inclined to honest than humans, and typically not happy about it but these things very much do still happen.
More than that, they are more than capable of actually convincing themselves of things that may not be true. Just look at all the Dwarves who had convinced themselves that no lost hold could ever be reclaimed (including Kragg the Grimm). Or the Slayers coming from percieving in themselves a fault that no one else did (like the boy we witnessed go Slayer with Belegar).
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
It can be research center. Just not magic one. But honestly, its not as if we need it anyway. Just make the library as is. Or withold our boon some more. I have personally never been convinced that this was cool enough idea, i just lacked any better opinion.
If I wanted to say a hard no, I'd say a hard no.
- Location
- Mexico
Alright, so I think this is where we stand:
1) We can open a Research focused college branch, and we can open a Dwarf Library, but they can't be one and the same (no mixed boons)
2) Magisters can help on dwarf projects, but the project can't be on the empire side, as it would be under empire jurisdiction.
So, we could ask for both Boons without mixing them up, and allow natural intermingling as long as it does not violate the empires laws (and presumably the guilds as well).
A research centre would requiere:
-Magisters
-Research material
-Workshops
-Safe experimentation area (more like a firing range than a workshop)
So we use Great Deed(s) for the branch, which provides the Magisters, Boon for library, which provides research material, Dwarf favor for pre-made Workshops, and then college favor to outfit them. We also ask Belegar about a sufficiently empty area for testing (the hills area?).
We keep the research mostly isolated, with access to the library by design and safety foremost.
Then the tricky part is the sharing of ideas, where do we draw the lines? is dwarfs asking for help in aethyr related projects alright? Like Kragg asking for the Seviroscope himself instead of us doing it for him (not that he would), would a bounty board system with dwarfs (and half lings) looking for experts in specific disciplines be alright? and the reverse, asking for dwarfs to do specific work for payment? (like asking for a specific rune to be inscribed in something). Could we do some kind of demonstration to give ideas of what each other have to offer?
Mostly I want to see if the thread is interested and what their ideas are about how we can accomplish cooperation and progress, because like many others I see the idea of just buying something with the boon to be narratively unsatisfactory, i want something that draws from our experiences and our goals, i want this to be something that can actually produce change.
edit: boons, dammit Slaanesh
1) We can open a Research focused college branch, and we can open a Dwarf Library, but they can't be one and the same (no mixed boons)
2) Magisters can help on dwarf projects, but the project can't be on the empire side, as it would be under empire jurisdiction.
So, we could ask for both Boons without mixing them up, and allow natural intermingling as long as it does not violate the empires laws (and presumably the guilds as well).
A research centre would requiere:
-Magisters
-Research material
-Workshops
-Safe experimentation area (more like a firing range than a workshop)
So we use Great Deed(s) for the branch, which provides the Magisters, Boon for library, which provides research material, Dwarf favor for pre-made Workshops, and then college favor to outfit them. We also ask Belegar about a sufficiently empty area for testing (the hills area?).
We keep the research mostly isolated, with access to the library by design and safety foremost.
Then the tricky part is the sharing of ideas, where do we draw the lines? is dwarfs asking for help in aethyr related projects alright? Like Kragg asking for the Seviroscope himself instead of us doing it for him (not that he would), would a bounty board system with dwarfs (and half lings) looking for experts in specific disciplines be alright? and the reverse, asking for dwarfs to do specific work for payment? (like asking for a specific rune to be inscribed in something). Could we do some kind of demonstration to give ideas of what each other have to offer?
Mostly I want to see if the thread is interested and what their ideas are about how we can accomplish cooperation and progress, because like many others I see the idea of just buying something with the boon to be narratively unsatisfactory, i want something that draws from our experiences and our goals, i want this to be something that can actually produce change.
edit: boons, dammit Slaanesh
Last edited:
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Technically one Great Deed just gets us permission, not even Magisters or buildings to house it. I'm pretty sure we would have to spend both for that stuff.
- Location
- Lowton
[x] Use Rite of Way to ease the ascent- Will only be necessary during the roughest patches
[x] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
[x] Scout the lands of the Iron Wolves
[x] Investigate the 'Windfall' with the Light Wizards
[x] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
[x] Scout the lands of the Iron Wolves
[x] Investigate the 'Windfall' with the Light Wizards
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I'm very confused by this discussion.
We already know that we can build a branch college in K8P. Boney has said as much, and there's existing precedent with other branch college already existing. And such a branch college absolutely can focus on research and cooperation with the dwarves - it would be literally inside a dwarfhold, so yeah.
What we can't do without some very significant legal shenanigans coming up is trying to create some kind of supranational institution that's not truly beholden to either the Empire of Sigmar nor the Karaz Ankor.
We've got cachet, but not "make my own polity with blackjack and hookers" cachet.
We already know that we can build a branch college in K8P. Boney has said as much, and there's existing precedent with other branch college already existing. And such a branch college absolutely can focus on research and cooperation with the dwarves - it would be literally inside a dwarfhold, so yeah.
What we can't do without some very significant legal shenanigans coming up is trying to create some kind of supranational institution that's not truly beholden to either the Empire of Sigmar nor the Karaz Ankor.
We've got cachet, but not "make my own polity with blackjack and hookers" cachet.
honestly i would prefer we develop a branch college apart of K8Pnatturally rather then trying to set it up all at once.
Maybe set up a couple workshops for each of the apprentices, journey manlings, or whatever things mages who set up shop at K8P might want.
I just don't really see the point of dedicating the boon to setting up an entire branch if it's largely not going to be used for a while and would rather just develop it as more magisters from the colleges come and declare their wants or needs in service to us inexchange for doing research and stuff like that.
We got the money, dwarf favor, and papers for days to get college favor so i'm sure we can develop a good branch along the way without using the great deed boon
Edit: It's like using the boon to build a university but like 7 people are only going to attend it for first few years. feel like we could develop a branch natturally to meet the needs of the mages setting up shop rather then trying to meet the demands of ??? mage.
Maybe set up a couple workshops for each of the apprentices, journey manlings, or whatever things mages who set up shop at K8P might want.
I just don't really see the point of dedicating the boon to setting up an entire branch if it's largely not going to be used for a while and would rather just develop it as more magisters from the colleges come and declare their wants or needs in service to us inexchange for doing research and stuff like that.
We got the money, dwarf favor, and papers for days to get college favor so i'm sure we can develop a good branch along the way without using the great deed boon
Edit: It's like using the boon to build a university but like 7 people are only going to attend it for first few years. feel like we could develop a branch natturally to meet the needs of the mages setting up shop rather then trying to meet the demands of ??? mage.
Last edited:
- Location
- Greece
Thank you. Very well, here's my plan. I think we can:
1: Establish the joint research project under K8P who acts and is recognised as a mostly neutral actor
2: Argue that participating in it is a wizard's right, maybe even obligation, because advancing the magical theory of all civilization factions better allows everyone, including the Empire, to oppose dark magic and the forces of dark magic, something that is an obligation of magisters according to the Empire and which can be argued to be one of the founding ideals of the Empire (which according to the articles take precendence over everything)
3: Argue that, as such, a joint research center would constitute a permanent alliance against the forces of dark magic and destruction (greenskin, vampires, dhar users, chaos), recognizing, as per the ideals of Sigmar, that war against such is greater than other wars. Such alliance doesn't mean involved countries do not war, just that they informally agree by their mere participation (so that no one has to sign anything) that magical research which benefits everyone (against chaos, dhar magic etc) deserves priority over other wars.
4: As per the terms of the above, every involved country can de facto certify its own magic users to join the joint research program
5: Thus, wizards would have the right to participate and even involve others under the aegis of an research alliance against the forces of dark magic, which takes precedence over everything according to the articles, as long as every magister they cooperate with is lawfully recognised by their country of origin.
It won't necessarilly be an easy sell (especially with our diplo), but I think it does bypass the hard stonewall, letting us only concern ourselves with political will.
Last edited:
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
I'm pretty sure it comes from this:
Where a particularly wording seems to have mixed up a lot of people's conceptions on what was expected and then the rest was sorting it out. I know I was originally expecting them to be seperate institutions that just worked together on occasion, but got confused by Boney's answer and thought actually combining them might work somehow. I don't mind either way, really.
- Location
- Before the Ninth Gate
I would argue we'd want to hold off on the research college until the Library really gets going, if we want to attract people. I also don't know if it's an entirely good idea though. Unless it is focused on doing stuff with dwarves or our library gives a competitive advantage, the regular colleges are better because of network effects causing learning to happen faster. Splitting up the research center into two separate parts has a real cost.
Also, I want to save at least one great dead for when we think we can pull a Ranald legitimization. Honestly, being a dwarf, having massively huge dwarf favor, and asking publicly of the Grand Theogonist to legitimize Ranald puts him in quite the awkward spot. We should spend our next social asking Heidi about setting up plans for this, and how she thinks such a vote might go.
Alternatively, I also want to mug Guundred, who's present in the border princes.
We'd have to get the other stuff, and approval to house it, from Belegar, not the Empire. But I think Belegar would love to fund it. "Hey Belegar, given that wizards in K8P have solved a great majority of problems, if you shell out some money now, you'll have Wizards at K8P forever."
Also, I want to save at least one great dead for when we think we can pull a Ranald legitimization. Honestly, being a dwarf, having massively huge dwarf favor, and asking publicly of the Grand Theogonist to legitimize Ranald puts him in quite the awkward spot. We should spend our next social asking Heidi about setting up plans for this, and how she thinks such a vote might go.
Alternatively, I also want to mug Guundred, who's present in the border princes.
The only reason the Empire isn't trying to burn Ice Witches and Damsels at this very moment is that legally they're considered clergy. There is exactly one foreign magic user that Imperial law recognizes as legitimate, and that's Teclis.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
You know how the thread likes to joke about Ranald having no chill when it comes to the dice fuckery? This sort of thing makes me wonder whether Ranald thinks the same thing about Mathilde.
- Location
- Greece
Hmm? It let Arabyans, Tileans and even , tentatively, border magisters attend our lecture.
And that would mean that us employing Asarnil is illegal.
There's a decent chance that if they try again, the dwarfs would come in and say "Stop doing that, wizards are cool". In technical terms, this is known as an Awkward Situation.
Though something like the Night of a Thousand Duels would probably make the relucant to intervene, because that's pretty much all the worst Wizard stereotypes.
The best, of course, are being proper-sized, surprisingly-dwarflike, very useful, and necessary for hold reclamations.
And that would stop if you shined a legalistic spotlight on them and forced the authorities to make a ruling on them.
Asarnil doesn't use magic.
- Pronouns
- It/They
More evidence that the laws are not worth following!
And if this law is so stupid... then I wonder what other laws may not be worth following?
- Location
- Before the Ninth Gate
Are they fine with the other two mages who came with Teclis?
Much of the incentive for following laws in this universe is that if we don't, Greys try to kill us (and probably succeed, there are sneakier ones than us), and we lose access to a large amount of institutional knowledge. And so we follow the laws.
Last edited:
- Location
- Greece
How about the elven ambassadors then? I have a hard time believing none of them are magic users, and a hard reading that refuses to recognise allied nations right to recognise lawful magic users would mean they'd have to vet (and anger) all visiting elgi not named Teclis.