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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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BoneyM said:
The only reason the Empire isn't trying to burn Ice Witches and Damsels at this very moment is that legally they're considered clergy. There is exactly one foreign magic user that Imperial law recognizes as legitimate, and that's Teclis.
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...Are Runesmiths considered clergy too? And if so, is there a problem with Clergy working at a research center? If we limited it to Imperial Wizards and allied Clergy... I'm not sure if that would count as an international magic research thing though.
 
My position on our Premium Currencies continues to be:
kfrar said:
As far as I'm concerned, the winning move is to spend the Transcendental Boon on b o o k, to spend a Great Deed to open a Branch College with a research focus, and then to spend mundane resources like money and Favor to pay for the Branch College's facilities.

We do not know the estimated cost of College research facilities in mundane resources, but adding a tower to our penthouse costs 100gc base and some combination of additional money (50-100), College Favors (1-5), and Dwarf/Runesmith Favors (1-5), so that maybe gives us an order of magnitude?
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Maybe it turns out we'd need the second Deed to gear up the Branch College, but that's a bridge we can cross when we get to it.

The reason I support this is:
Andmeuths said:
Out of curiosity, how does a Branch College dedicated to Research Unique to the Eight Peaks (Waystones, Collaboration with the Dawi, etc) play out, in the event Mathilde

a) Directly manages the Colleges as an organization
b) Appoints a deputy to oversee the day to day running of the Colleges on her behalf?
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BoneyM said:
A would probably result in it subsuming the current Duckling/Johann/Max half-turns and having three half-turns dedicated to managing the Branch and its employees or performing collaborative research, which would also make it that practically any research task could be performed with those half-turns. B would be a lot trickier to work into the narrative so I'd have to think about how it'd work, but at the very least it would make it much more likely that some more Wizards would arrive to work with.
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Up to 3 half-AP research actions per turn! DEATH TO OUR BACKLOG!!!!!!!!

(And I agree completely with @Redshirt Army's point: these things can be separate. We don't need to Frankenstein the Library and the research branch together. Just let them each be their own things.)
 
storryeater said:
How about the elven ambassadors then? I have a hard time believing none of them are magic users, and a hard reading that refuses to recognise allied nations right to recognise lawful magic users would mean they'd have to vet (and anger) all visiting elgi not named Teclis.
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There are very few legal niceties so inviolate that they can't be ignored for diplomatic and political reasons, particularly when it comes to the global superpower.
 
Alliterate said:
There are very few legal niceties so inviolate that they can't be ignored for diplomatic and political reasons, particularly when it comes to the global superpower.
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Agreed, but it does mean that a forced ruling would have to recognise other non dhar non greenskin aligned nations sovereign ability to name magic users, lest it piss off the elves.
 
I'm 'looking forward' to the first time that someone from the "We're definitely not part of the Empire any more" human population of K8P manifests magic.
 
Abhorsen said:
Are they fine with the other two mages who came with Teclis?
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storryeater said:
How about the elven ambassadors then? I have a hard time believing none of them are magic users, and a hard reading that refuses to recognise allied nations right to recognise lawful magic users would mean they'd have to vet (and anger) all visiting elgi not named Teclis.
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You're pointing at a bunch of cases of Imperial law turning a blind eye for the sake of politics and taking them as explicit legal permission. It's absolutely not. It's a loose framework of legal fictions to paper over the cracks where Imperial law meets reality. And if you shine a light on them you won't get those niceties formalized, you'd get them removed, and then you'd get pyres.

Ericwinter said:
...Are Runesmiths considered clergy too? And if so, is there a problem with Clergy working at a research center? If we limited it to Imperial Wizards and allied Clergy... I'm not sure if that would count as an international magic research thing though.
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They literally are clergy. And yes, there would be a problem with clergy studying magic, because the Articles explicitly say only Magisters can do so.
 
BoneyM said:
You're pointing at a bunch of cases of Imperial law turning a blind eye for the sake of politics and taking them as explicit legal permission. It's absolutely not. It's a loose framework of legal fictions to paper over the cracks where Imperial law meets reality. And if you shine a light on them you won't get those niceties formalized, you'd get them removed, and then you'd get pyres.
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Hmm... is this a hard fact, or an "as the current political situation stands fact, but subject to sufficient political consensus of the Elector Counts it can be ruled the other way in a hypothetical future when enough politicking has been done by the colleges"

Also, how could anyone smarter than Dieter IV think that burning elves is a good idea?
 
Mopman43 said:
Even the Dwarfs consider them clergy- they're part of the Cult of Thungni.
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BoneyM said:
They literally are clergy. And yes, there would be a problem with clergy studying magic, because the Articles explicitly say only Magisters can do so.
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I'll admit, I was under the impression the Damsels and Ice Witches were literally clergy too, and saw them having to be specified as "considered" such as a sign the also literally clergy Runesmiths might need that same distinction.

Anyways, that sucks. Yeah, we're probably just going to have to rely on legal fictions to get by. Everyone else does it, after all.
 
SpaceSloth said:
Does that mean that our collaboration with Thorek while researching AV was illegal ?
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No, because you weren't in the Empire.

storryeater said:
Hmm... is this a hard fact, or an "as the current political situation stands fact, but subject to sufficient political consensus of the Elector Counts it can be ruled the other way in a hypothetical future when enough politicking has been done by the colleges"
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There is no room for creative reinterpretation in "Magisters alone shall be permitted to study magic".

storryeater said:
Also, how could anyone smarter than Dieter IV think that burning elves is a good idea?
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They don't. That's why they're not. They've turned a blind eye in this situation to avoid doing so. But if you force the matter, the law wouldn't give them any other choice.
 
storryeater said:
Hmm... is this a hard fact, or an "as the current political situation stands fact, but subject to sufficient political consensus of the Elector Counts it can be ruled the other way in a hypothetical future when enough politicking has been done by the colleges"
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The Articles of Magic are a paper shield against the two thirds of the Empire population who would prefer to burn any magic user they come across on general precautionary and prejudicial principle.
They are backed up by the second greatest leader of the Empires' seal of (literal divine) approval.

Until that impulse changes, I don't think there is anything to be gained for the Colleges by calling any of them into question.
 
storryeater said:
Hmm... is this a hard fact, or an "as the current political situation stands fact, but subject to sufficient political consensus of the Elector Counts it can be ruled the other way in a hypothetical future when enough politicking has been done by the colleges"

Also, how could anyone smarter than Dieter IV think that burning elves is a good idea?
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... do you really not get, 'its politics, not law, don't poke it if you don't have the power or leverage to get away with it.'?
 
Still don't get why this thread thinks Mathilde would want to set up a library or research centre that involves more admin on her part. I know the posters want it (belief in !SCIENCE!), but Mathilde as a person has always shied away from any serious organizational or administrative duties - when she's had to to do so as part of her roles, she's delegated it to a single other person went need be. Mathilde doesn't mind working with a small amount of peers or underlings, but has a history of trying stay away from day to day management of anything larger - which either a branch college or a library of some kind would be.

I still hold that our Gread Deeds are best held to be used to boost Ranalds influence in the Empire - Backing up whatever future plays Heidi does to get Him recognition or starting our own if the political environment suites it. I assume we could spend two Great Deeds at once - one to get Ranald brought up at a Diet and another to lobby for him?
 
ninjafish said:
More evidence that the laws are not worth following!

And if this law is so stupid... then I wonder what other laws may not be worth following?
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When has Mattie even once, for a single second, vaguely felt like even thinking about obeying the law out of respect for the law itself?

One of the very first decisions we made was "Should we embezzle and steal from our boss and Stirland as a whole? Yes, definitely, multiple times."

Then we read a sweat books about Necromancy.

Abhorsen said:
And so we follow the laws.
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People think we follow the laws. We really just do whatever we feel like and think we can get away with and lie about the illegal things.

Mattie definitely has lines she won't cross, but those lines aren't the ones established by the law.
 
@BoneyM: Would there be some legal problem with the Articles of Magic if Belegar funded the branch college's upkeep/setup? Or would that be okay by the Articles of Magic? Could he fund them but not be in control of the college, or something else? (Not asking if Belegar, just if it would be legal, in the politely ignored stage, or a Nope).
 
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You know, the Articles talk about "Magisters" and "initiates" but in no way define any requirements for those. An initiate is whomever the Colleges say it is, that swears to abide by the Articles, even if they're a Perpetual Apprentice who in practice can't actually use magic. They're still allowed to "study" magic, even if they never cast a spell, because they've sworn to the articles and under the colleges.

Nothing says that they have to be human. They could be an elf. Or even a dwarf. Now granted, there is-

1. The first obedience of every Magister must be to the ideals and laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire of which these Articles form a part; then to he who is rightfully elected Emperor of Sigmar's Holy Empire; then to the Supreme Patriarch of the Colleges of Magic; then to the laws and ideals of their Order; then to the Patriarch of their Order; then to the authorities that each Magister may be required to serve in the course of his duties; then to other superiors within their Orders.
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Okay, yeah, sure, but that just means finding a Runesmith so kickflip radical that they're willing to swear allegiance to Sigmar's Holy Empire for the chance to figure out how runes interact with human magic. But in legal principle it would be allowed!

Consider the thought experiment a little bit of turnabout for the ideas floated so often that Mathilde should swear dwarven oaths to learn some of their secrets.
 
BoneyM said:
You're pointing at a bunch of cases of Imperial law turning a blind eye for the sake of politics and taking them as explicit legal permission. It's absolutely not. It's a loose framework of legal fictions to paper over the cracks where Imperial law meets reality. And if you shine a light on them you won't get those niceties formalized, you'd get them removed, and then you'd get pyres.
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Out of interest, why doesn't the Cult of Sigmar go pointing these fictions out?
 
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