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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Keeping my votes in tier form so that I can quickly add or remove the appropriate approval votes as necessary. Currently I am equal on all Tier 1 votes, but maybe I'll change my opinion later if two or more of them are still head to head.

Tier 1
[X] Loremaster-at-Large of Karak Eight Peaks
[X] Spymaster of Wissenland
[X] Ambassador-at-Large to the Karaz Ankor
[X] Bodyguard and Tutor to Prince Mandred
Tier 2
[ ] The Waystone Project
[ ] Markgraf of Eastern Stirland
[ ] Count of Sylvania
[ ] Research Sabbatical
Tier 3
[ ] Border Princess of the Howling River
Tier 4
[ ] Ranaldian High Priest of Kislev
[ ] Nagarythe
Tier 5
[ ] Loremaster Sinecure
[ ] Governor-General of Swamp Town
 
I find the Waystone project to be an overhyped monstrosity in how people would believe we would be doing things that would be adventurous where instead we would be forced to find funding all over so that we can retain independence in this because there would be a lot of pointed questions if Mathilde is not letting the Colleges benefit from this. I just don't want us to be turned to a Black Magister without first being seen as something good in the eyes of the Empire and the Colleges first because we are too ensconced in the Dwarven Realm where we need Imperial prestige to get a larger project like this to work. While I know that can be out there we would need to worry about the legal Cults of the Empire.

Rafin said:
Regarding the arguments that Mathilde is just as needed as an Empire troubleshooter at Heidi's side as she is in the other jobs, I'm wholly on the side of those who disagree. If we want to be dutiful then every option other than Sinecure and hereditary countess are a better choice. Tutoring and aiding the heir of Reikland and his family is a powergrab, pure and simple. It provides power to our most powerful political ally within our own nation, while also binding us closer to her and making her success our success. It lets us influence the most likely heir to the Imperial Throne, so that he is more aligned with our ideals and more supportive of our personal goals in the future. It gives us carte blanche (or close to it) to personally entreat with Imperial high nobility and institutions, while having the backing of the Emperor. It elevates our personal religion, whose deity we are personal friends with, all the while putting said deity in our debt. Taking the Mandred's tutor option is putting Mathilde's self-interest first (except with more long term ambition and less immediate reward than the other two selfish options). Any long term altruistic motives are at best about "with more power we can help more people" and "our religion and ideology is good for the masses". I am completely okay with that, which is why I will vote for it. But lets not delude ourselves too much when it comes to which job provides the most
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It actually does provide a lot of prestige to Mathilde personally in the Empire though and while we have been fighting in distant shores to show the good of the empire we need to do some domestic prestige building so that Mathilde can be rightfully considered to be a Hero of the Empire.
 
You know people are being very cavalier about invoking Article One if the Empress and Emperor decide to put their dynastic interest above the common good of the empire. But is it that simple? Let's go ask Algrad. When Dieter was destroying the Empire pitting the Colleges against each other was it enough to shout 'article one' and then go against the Throne? I don't think it was that simple personally hence why things got so very, very out of hand.

Maybe we should not just assume we can jump into court politics but retain our principles wholly intact because the vague provisions of Article one will save us like Sigmar come down from on high.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Just to address this concern directly, since I've seen it crop up several times:

Mathilde is a Grey Lord Magister, which already means that the number of people the empire has that can do what she does is limited to eight. That's not an overflowing abundance.

...

So among the immediate and massive issues facing the Empire, Mathilde is the best possible candidate to resolve at least three of them. And they are massive issues - Wissenland's situation with the Skaven is a lot more precarious than any Dwarfhold, and Sylvania is a lot more time-critical at this moment than basically any remaining issues in the Karaz Ankor.

So yes, I will reaffirm my statement: The Empire needs Mathilde more than the Dwarves do, right now.
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Counter argument: There is exactly one Wizard the Dawi might trust with any secret problems they might have, and her name is Weber. As to the scope of the problems, yes, they are unlikely to be immediately needed, but that is different to being immediately effective. See: Pulling a dwarfhold out of the hands of Slanesh.

IE: There are more Grey Wizard Magisters in the Empire, than in the Karaz Ankor. And if the option was for Empire Troubleshooter, I might vote for it. Or just for being the Emperor Heir's Bodyguard. But Heidi mucks it all up, and I don't want those kind of Divided Loyalties. One should know the kind of temptations we should stay away from, and a brawl between Ranald and Sigmar is one of them.

Remember, Mat can't stand Sigmar. Would you like to give the Future Emperor some lessons in Disdain for Sigmar? I don't.

Additionally, you can't say the Empire needs Mat more than the Dwarves do, because you have no idea what the Dwarves might need her for. Any issues they might need a Wizard for are likely to be secret, hidden and possibly related to the Age when Elven Archmages still walked in their Holds.

Like a certain Throne of Power, for which we already know the dwarves are perfectly willing to sit on possible Dooms of their Whole Fucking Race And Not Tell Anyone You Stupid Stubborn DAWI!

PS: The High King litteraly just gave us the key for bypassing the biggest hurdle: Not sharing secrets with non-dawi. "Well I've got a dawi soul, so spill you per-crochety old dwarf so I can help you damn it!"
 
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Darth. said:
Here's what I don't get: Why do people want Waystones so badly now, rather than any of the excellent time-sensitive offers we have? Waystones seems like the kind of thing we could spend a lifetime on, so why not wait until we've unfucked the Empire/Dwarves by troubleshooting them a bit more. Whether as Edgelord, Loremaster, whatever. Seems to me like 10 turns later we'll be holding a vote to see if we want to put Waystones research on hold to go off somewhere else and the Dwarves/Empire will be worse off because we didn't maintain the momentum of fixing shit up.
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Well, I personally voted for both Waystones and the Loremaster-at-large. The second seems to me the most troubleshooting we can do and no one else can. Empire problems seem like those that can be solved by other people, that's the biggest thing. Another thing is that dwarves seem to be much more stable and their problems to be more long-term ones, so once we solve them the dwarves are much better then before. While with the empire it's the problems that come and go quicker (relatively speaking).
 
Darth. said:
Here's what I don't get: Why do people want Waystones so badly now, rather than any of the excellent time-sensitive offers we have? Waystones seems like the kind of thing we could spend a lifetime on, so why not wait until we've unfucked the Empire/Dwarves by troubleshooting them a bit more. Whether as Edgelord, Loremaster, whatever. Seems to me like 10 turns later we'll be holding a vote to see if we want to put Waystones research on hold to go off somewhere else and the Dwarves/Empire will be worse off because we didn't maintain the momentum of fixing shit up.

We are eminently qualified for both Nuln and Sylvania. Even more so for Loremaster. Bodyguard is a nice change of pace that lets us do all of the above to some extent. Border Princess is more dwarves and trade with some Empire in it. Kislev is something completely new. Sabbatical is us kicking our backlog in the ass and establishing our bona fides for later when we do Waystones as Fayhem mentioned.

Seems to me like people are putting the cart before the horse. Waystones is so long term that it doesn't matter if we figure it out in 30-40 years if the Empire and dwarves are not in a good enough position to take advantage of it, because there was a disaster retaking some hold and now the dwarves are depressed again or the Skaven conquered and razed Nuln, or some von Carstein woke up.
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I mean, putting it off also 'doesn't matter' if Mathilde dies before she can ever get to it.

Personally, I voted for it as my top pick because it offers me more of what I enjoy reading about most. Given the quest title we will always be torn between competing needs so this sort of argumentation is never going to be very persuasive I don't think.
 
ctulhuslp said:
I mean...

She didn't do it out of goodness of her heart, she did it to get her youth.
Which, apparently, is an old trick for socal-capper-runners such as her - do nice things for shallyans, suck up to them, get youth.

Mind, it's still useful for Shallyans, but it was nothing more than a business transaction as far as we can tell, we cannot read either callousness or lack of it into it.
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Heidi downplays herself constantly. It's one of her key character traits. Like, it's classic: "I only did this for my selfish benefit. The fact that it helped others a great deal means nothing to me, baka!" Normal cat behavior, that.
 
Darth. said:
Here's what I don't get: Why do people want Waystones so badly now, rather than any of the excellent time-sensitive offers we have? Waystones seems like the kind of thing we could spend a lifetime on, so why not wait until we've unfucked the Empire/Dwarves by troubleshooting them a bit more. Whether as Edgelord, Loremaster, whatever. Seems to me like 10 turns later we'll be holding a vote to see if we want to put Waystones research on hold to go off somewhere else and the Dwarves/Empire will be worse off because we didn't maintain the momentum of fixing shit up.

We are eminently qualified for both Nuln and Sylvania. Even more so for Loremaster. Bodyguard is a nice change of pace that lets us do all of the above to some extent. Border Princess is more dwarves and trade with some Empire in it. Kislev is something completely new. Sabbatical is us kicking our backlog in the ass and establishing our bona fides for later when we do Waystones as Fayhem mentioned.

Seems to me like people are putting the cart before the horse. Waystones is so long term that it doesn't matter if we figure it out in 30-40 years if the Empire and dwarves are not in a good enough position to take advantage of it, because there was a disaster retaking some hold and now the dwarves are depressed again or the Skaven conquered and razed Nuln, or some von Carstein woke up.
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What makes you think that in several years there wont be some good time sensitive things to do ?
What if we will have opportunity to become Matriarch of the Grey order next time we vote for job ?

There will never be some perfect time when everything will be peacefull.
The quest has been running for about 3 years and so far we had only two jobs. Im not interested in waiting for possibly years to read what I want to read just because it might be better to do it later.
 
People keep focusing on the aspect of bodyguard that is solving problems in the Empire, which is cool, don't get me wrong. But what people miss is that this is a unique chance to shape/mold the next emperor as well, teaching him important things. If there's major thing that we think could help the empire, but they are ignoring it, this is the only chance we have of changing this. We could do a huge amount of good here.
 
Abhorsen said:
People keep focusing on the aspect of bodyguard that is solving problems in the Empire, which is cool, don't get me wrong. But what people miss is that this is a unique chance to shape/mold the next emperor as well, teaching him important things. If there's major thing that we think could help the empire, but they are ignoring it, this is the only chance we have of changing this. We could do a huge amount of good here.
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Shaping and molding a small child sounds kind of boring and it is going to be a long long time before he can make any political decisions, at least 15 years for that and then who knows how much longer before he can even potentially become Emperor. The entire quest has been going on for 16 years total.
 
Darth. said:
Here's what I don't get: Why do people want Waystones so badly now, rather than any of the excellent time-sensitive offers we have? Waystones seems like the kind of thing we could spend a lifetime on, so why not wait until we've unfucked the Empire/Dwarves by troubleshooting them a bit more. Whether as Edgelord, Loremaster, whatever. Seems to me like 10 turns later we'll be holding a vote to see if we want to put Waystones research on hold to go off somewhere else and the Dwarves/Empire will be worse off because we didn't maintain the momentum of fixing shit up.

We are eminently qualified for both Nuln and Sylvania. Even more so for Loremaster. Bodyguard is a nice change of pace that lets us do all of the above to some extent. Border Princess is more dwarves and trade with some Empire in it. Kislev is something completely new. Sabbatical is us kicking our backlog in the ass and establishing our bona fides for later when we do Waystones as Fayhem mentioned.

Seems to me like people are putting the cart before the horse. Waystones is so long term that it doesn't matter if we figure it out in 30-40 years if the Empire and dwarves are not in a good enough position to take advantage of it, because there was a disaster retaking some hold and now the dwarves are depressed again or the Skaven conquered and razed Nuln, or some von Carstein woke up.
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There will always be more enemies to fight. Somebody somewhere somewhen is going to take a swing, because this is Warhammer, and you can spend a lifetime fighting threats and not run out.
 
Karaz Ankor does not need Mathildes help.
It could use Mathildes help, or anyones help really, but it does not need it.
Because the actual problem Karaz Ankor is facing is decline in population, and we can't solve that (also loss of institutional knowledge due to guild secrets, but we ain't fixing that either), if what we have already done does not get them hopeful enough to have children, i doubt nothing will.

Now, on the same note, Empire does not need Mathilde either, but i do think Mathilde can do bigger impact by hepling the empire remain stable and strong ally of Karaz Ankor by helping mold the next emperor, while also fixing problems Elector Counts need fixed.
 
Abhorsen said:
. But what people miss is that this is a unique chance to shape/mold the next emperor as well, teaching him important things.
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Well, I am interested in what exactly can we teach him. Would be very enlightening to me because I can't figure it out on my own. Like, what are we great at that we can teach someone without Ulgu or magic in general. Yes, I feel stupid there. :(
 
Valmond said:
Now, on the same note, Empire does not need Mathilde either, but i do think Mathilde can do bigger impact by hepling the empire remain stable and strong ally of Karaz Ankor by helping mold the next emperor, while also fixing problems Elector Counts need fixed.
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So a year or two IRL (being optimistic) the prince who may one day become Emperor will be moulded whatever that means. Yeah still not sold on this. At least Ranald pay out is more assured but it is on the same time scale.
 
Valmond said:
Because the actual problem Karaz Ankor is facing is decline in population, and we can't solve that (also loss of institutional knowledge due to guild secrets, but we ain't fixing that either), if what we have already done does not get them hopeful enough to have children, i doubt nothing will.
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As far as I remember, something about the vault of Valaya losing it's power is the biggest factor of dwarves losing hope. And we could solve it by reclaiming more lost holds. Need to clarify that.
 
[X] Bodyguard and Tutor to Prince Mandred
[X] Markgraf of Eastern Stirland
[X] Spymaster of Wissenland

Approval: (edited)
[] The Waystone Project

Not a fan of the Loremaster job, to much like what we already do, to much dawi.
 
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DragonParadox said:
You know people are being very cavalier about invoking Article One if the Empress and Emperor decide to put their dynastic interest above the common good of the empire. But is it that simple? Let's go ask Algrad. When Dieter was destroying the Empire pitting the Colleges against each other was it enough to shout 'article one' and then go against the Throne? I don't think it was that simple personally hence why things got so very, very out of hand.

Maybe we should not just assume we can jump into court politics but retain our principles wholly intact because the vague provisions of Article one will save us like Sigmar come down from on high.
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Are you seriously arguing this point when the QM has both explicitly refuted it, and has told you to cool your jets regarding your repeated reframing of the argument for this option?
 
[X] Loremaster-at-Large of Karak Eight Peaks
[X] The Waystone Project
[X] Spymaster of Wissenland
[X] Border Princess of the Howling River
 
Abhorsen said:
People keep focusing on the aspect of bodyguard that is solving problems in the Empire, which is cool, don't get me wrong. But what people miss is that this is a unique chance to shape/mold the next emperor as well, teaching him important things. If there's major thing that we think could help the empire, but they are ignoring it, this is the only chance we have of changing this. We could do a huge amount of good here.
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This is definitely one of the main things I find appealing about the job. I'm not currently voting for it -- I dropped my approval vote after about an hour, because it's behind the other top three in my personal rankings -- but it's an aspect I find engaging and interesting. I don't like Heidi, but I like Ranald, and I'd like to like Mandred.
fan_of_D_Andreev said:
As far as I remember, something about the vault of Valaya losing it's power is the biggest factor of dwarves losing hope. And we could solve it by reclaiming more lost holds. Need to clarify that.
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Only the High King knows about that. Besides, reclaiming more lost holds isn't really in the cards, because dwarves don't have the population to spare (Boney made some posts about this a while back). Also, I may be a giant fan of the dwarves, ra-ra Belebro and feeling more strongly about the Karaz Ankor than about the Empire, but I agree with Redshirt: I have read enough dwarf hold reclamations in this quest. I'd prefer to do other stuff.
 
What is the Vault of Valaya? I googled it but the only thing I found is The Vaults which is some retreat for dwarves from lost holds that's rich in metals.
 
fan_of_D_Andreev said:
As far as I remember, something about the vault of Valaya losing it's power is the biggest factor of dwarves losing hope. And we could solve it by reclaiming more lost holds. Need to clarify that.
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It was losing power before K8P was reclaimed. Right now the biggest issue is that there is simply not enough dwarves. And aside from rare exceptions like Kazador (king of Azul) they are not even trying too hard to replenish their numbers.
 
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