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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Redshirt Army said:
What about Heidi, the woman who did enough favors for the Shallyans to be granted youth, makes you think that she's this callous?
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I mean...
BoneyM said:
She feigns horror. "You ask a lady about her age? How gauche!" She grins. "Literally the oldest trick in the book - or at least, in our book. Do nice things for Shallyans, turn up the charm, and a few miracles later you're back in the flower of your youth. Then again, considering how much I had to do it could be argued that they played me instead of vice versa. Not that I minded terribly much. If you do it right, you can please Shallya and the Protector all at once. Truth be told, I'm glad the conspiracy got kicked apart by Abelhelm's Templar friends. Long cons are all well and good, but thirteen years is a bit much. So I woke up my predecessor just before the doors got kicked in and off I went with thirteen years of taxes, which adds up to a nice sum, even in Sylvania. But that wasn't the only time your story intercepted mine."
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She didn't do it out of goodness of her heart, she did it to get her youth.
Which, apparently, is an old trick for socal-capper-runners such as her - do nice things for shallyans, suck up to them, get youth.

Mind, it's still useful for Shallyans, but it was nothing more than a business transaction as far as we can tell, we cannot read either callousness or lack of it into it.
 
[X] Loremaster-at-Large of Karak Eight Peaks
[X] The Waystone Project
[X] Markgraf of Eastern Stirland

Trying to be selective, because oh dear is this a hard choice (or, more accurately, I want several options to win, despite that being literally impossible).
 
Burned_Cookie said:
That´s... what friendship is? What, do you abandon all of your friends periodically to go off and find new ones? I get what you are trying to say, and your prediction is almost certainly accurate (even if I want to stay with Belegar and therefore do not care), but the way you phrase it you almost make stiking with the people you like sound like a bad thing.
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Lol as if we will lose our friendship just cause we do something other than stay at K8P. There is nothing wrong with moving to new places and making more friends while still remaining in contact with old ones.
 
ctulhuslp said:
well, with very much real aside of "Empire has myriad of Wizards and several more Grey Lord Magisters, so marginal utility of Mathilde there is way lower than in KaK where she is without an exaggeration unique, which makes the whole rationale a bit wrong, IMO
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Just to address this concern directly, since I've seen it crop up several times:

Mathilde is a Grey Lord Magister, which already means that the number of people the empire has that can do what she does is limited to eight. That's not an overflowing abundance.

But if you look at the actual problems Heidi brought up:

BoneyM said:
Everyone has outstanding bugbears that need slaying, they always do. Middenland and Nordland have each other, Wissenland has the rats, Stirland has Sylvania, Ostermark has Mordheim, you get the picture.
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• Middenland and Nordland's current major conflict is about Laurelorn, and Mathilde has a unique in there given Laurelorn requested her assistance by name, and she's got connections on the Ulrican side of things. (Quite unusual for wizards, note how flatfooted Algard was caught by the Ar-Ulric's request.)

• The rats. Mathilde has literally written the book on them - we are the foremost expert bar none on dealing with Skaven in the Empire.

• Sylvania. You think any of the other Grey Lord Magisters have a copy of the Liber Mortis in their back pocket? Mathilde is very much unusually talented even among her peers in dealing with necromancy.

So among the immediate and massive issues facing the Empire, Mathilde is the best possible candidate to resolve at least three of them. And they are massive issues - Wissenland's situation with the Skaven is a lot more precarious than any Dwarfhold, and Sylvania is a lot more time-critical at this moment than basically any remaining issues in the Karaz Ankor.

So yes, I will reaffirm my statement: The Empire needs Mathilde more than the Dwarves do, right now.
 
Fayhem said:
He's betting everything from the Mork Heist that he didn't give to us on it. I think we can already arrive at the conclusion that the answer is "a lot."
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:o
Allright.
Now, the real point, I guess. Are we sure that Ranald is right about this new Emperor thing - or is he going to do things for lots of fun? Like, legalizing all the things his worshippers did that was considered crime. :rofl:
Do we trust Ranald with this? o_O
 
Byzantine said:
I have, and I don't trust the emperor either. Not once he really gets a taste for what having a grey LM on side can do. Even mostly benevolent there are far too many ways that can be abused to trust anyone with it, and I'm not comfortable giving them a demostration of it.

I wasn't intending to put everyone on Heidi anyway. The point was it's a political position that amounts to "ensure Mandred gets elected". Not the "imperial troubleshooter" some are thinking of it as. Yes that will be a good part of the job. But not all of it. And I really don't want the rest.
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He can literally already do that. Explicitly. The fact that the Emperor can use the power of his office to shore up his dynastic position is a feature, not a bug.
DragonParadox said:
Article 1 is the vaguest out there. What is a value and how do you quantify it physically? There are not just grey areas in article one, you could lose the twilight zone in there.
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And we are eminently qualified to judge those grey areas. That's what being a Lord Magister means.
 
Byzantine said:
Yes, he does. And that is orecisely why I don't want to go making it obvious all the less than kosher things he could do with them if he was so inclinded. Someone theoretically being able to do something is quite different from them seeing demostrations of it happening.
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I...would think he already knows based on Dieter IV and the Time of the Three Emperors. But he won't want to rock the boat because he wants Electoral votes. He'd be doing the exact same thing every Emperor has legally done to try and ensure their dynasty continues on the Throne. We have WOG that this is not a bad thing, but an expected thing. Your great Heidi/Emperor plot is doing nice things and offering favorable deals (trade, diplomacy) for the Elector Counts so they like him and vote for his son. We have WOG on this too.
 
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ALanos said:
There's dislike and there's trying to damage a person's reputation because of the interactions we made that don't seem too bad. While it would be sad to let Belegar go growing to move beyond just comfortable and go to new horizons because it would be better for Mathilde's growth and she's still young for a wizard it would be horrible for us to just let her stagnate.
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Interactions we made that don't seem too bad to you. And, like... can you not see that from my perspective, you are doing the same thing you are accusing others of doing? You're saying "it would be horrible for us to just let her stagnate." Just as other people view certain actions and attitudes Heidi expresses with alarm, but you think it's fine and nothing to be concerned about, you view "continuing to work for Belegar" as inherently stagnating, and I strenuously disagree.

I'm not saying that you're being toxic or salty or anything, I'm saying that none of us in the audience actually have the God's-eye-view of the situation. We vote, and we try to convince one another, and we act as seems best to the greatest number among the thread. That's how questing works. If someone says about Heidi that seems unfounded in the facts as we know them, then call them out on it, just like Redshirt did when pointing out that she can't be too callous if she's gotten the favor of Shallya -- and then DragonParadox pointing out right back that it would be hard to playact a vampire countess convincingly for years without doing something that dirties your hands. This back-and-forth from people with different views and different interpretations of the facts isn't toxic, it's healthy.
 
Darth. said:
I...woukd think he already knows based on Dieter IV and the Time of the Three Emperor's. But he won't want to rock the boat because he wants Electoral votes. He'd be doing the exact same thing every Emperor has legally done to try and ensure their dynasty continues on the Throne. We have WOG that this is not a bad thing, but an expected thing. Your great Heidi/Emperor plot is doing nice things and offering favorable deals (trade, diplomacy) for the Elector Counts so they like him and vote for his son. We have WOG on this too.
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The Emperor doing things to help the Elector-Counts to ensure his dynasty continues on the throne is also part of the system working as intended.
 
[X] Loremaster-at-Large of Karak Eight Peaks
[X] The Waystone Project
[X] Markgraf of Eastern Stirland
[X] Count of Sylvania
[X] Spymaster of Wissenland
[X] Ambassador-at-Large to the Karaz Ankor
[X] Ranaldian High Priest of Kislev
[X] Nagarythe
[X] Research Sabbatical

The Loremaster-at-Large had several interesting things crop up! I like that. But I also like the idea of keeping to the story of Dwarfs; not of just Karak Eight Peaks alone now though, but of Dwarfs abroad. Being a troubleshooter for the Karaz Ankor will mean getting to know Dwarfs and Kings all over the Old World, and might mean eventually working close together with the High King. Especially for things like "So how is Karak Vlag doing?" and "Mt. Silverspear? Under-Ubersreirk? Karag Dum?" and others. Being able to work alongside Thorgrim, and get a better measure of him... I'd like that. It means being there and being able to slowly work away at the Thorgrim-Belegar issue, and os on. Also, working and helping out other Kings and Karaks too.

Borderlord of East Stirland, or Count of Sylvania? Man, you know what that says to me? The return of the Dammerlitchtreither as a legend and spooky figure! ;) And that, too, is cool as heck! I want to go back to the lands of our first assignment, and where we first made and started our legend, and... I just want to return to that place, y'know? Coming back to it after we left, and seeing what happens from there. And also, coming back after we ourselves have become strong and famous. (Also, Baroness of Nachthafen. The humor potential. It calls to me.) Being close to Roswita and Anton and Kasmir would be good too. Being close to our first friends.

The Eonir Waystone Project... that's something we'll be approaching the Runesmiths for, on the Dawi side. And the Jade College, and possibly the Amber College, and possibly other Colleges too (the Light Wizards, for what they know of ancient Nehekharan teachings? The Grey Wizards, specifically Kurtis Krammovitch, for what the Hedge Wise know of the borderlands? Who knows!) And it'd mean working with Panoramia, or at least using her as a contact; which is good, because if we have a significant other, it'd be good to have something we share and work on together towards. And have that be part of the wordcount and "on screen" as it were. Rather than something relegated to the background.

Wissenland would be doing the Spymaster thing again, and for a good and worthy cause and against a good enemy. And we'd be in the middle of the Empire. The Naggarythe Elfcation... eh, why not. Ambassador-at-Large, same thing. Helping Dwarfs from the Empire side of things could be good.

The Ranaldian High Priest! ... I wish we'd gotten a chance to look into this job (and into Ambassador-at-Large), rather than only having one turn of top 5ish picks, but oh well. I guess I do feel lucky, so...

The Research Sabbatical... well, I'll just list our backlog:
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Accumulated Artifacts:

Ranald's Coin (note from Ranald: don't)
Vampire skulls
Branulhune - investigate the odd flash when it is desummoned underwater

Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands
Golden Arm
Ghyran Nut
Kurgan Shrine to Mannsleib
Kurgan enchanted weapons

Potential Papers:

Windsoak Mushrooms - Ulgu (FRESH)
Windsoak Mushrooms - Aqshy(FRESH)
Windsoak Mushrooms - Ghyran (FRESH)
Windsoak Mushrooms - Azyr (FRESH)
Comprehensive notes on possible terrain obstacles (FADING)

Waaagh energy and magic witnessed during the Expedition. (FADED)
The Black Orc Warboss' worship of Only Gork, and what you saw of the Rogue Idol ritual. (FADED)

Preliminary paper on Aethyric Vitae. (TIMELESS)
Coins of Nehekhara's Fifth Dynasty (TIMELESS)

Windsoak Mushrooms (missing: Chamon, Hysh, Shyish, Ghur)
The Currency of Strygos
The Currency of Tylos
Coins of Nehekhara's Fourth Dynasty
Coins of Nehekhara's Sixth Dynasty
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We have a literal truckload of backlog to research. And if there's a paper or two in the things we just did during the Expedition that can get added to that, then... well, then it gets even bigger. Oof.

((Sidenote: I almost hope that Panoramia gets the other 4 Windsoak Mushrooms online, so that we can knock out "Windsoak Mushrooms" as a single book, rather than as 8 paper topics... And imagine how much less College Favor that would be. And yet I still almost want to knock it out in just 2 actions rather than 8 actions, because it'd be more of a relief, even if less Favor. That's how bad the research backlog feels! It feels like I want to 'get it out of the way' rather than 'gleefully get Favor and Rating from showing novel papers to people.'))

And then there's whatever might come of our research into the Divine, or into Bok, or the Seviroscope, or diving into Morghur research in order to figure out what the hell the Karag Dum Dwarfs did.

And then there's the fact that we could try talking to the Marauder Clans and seeing what they know of Karag Dum and getting their input and history on things; because if we know wtf happened (and also when things changed) then we'd have at least have an answer for stuff like this from the update:
BoneyM said:
"So the Kurgan were opposed to the Beastmen?" Belegar asks, his brow furrowed.

"It seemed more like some sort of initiation or feat of bravery than a full-blown attack, there were many more horsemen watching than were trying to press the attack. They broke off as soon as one of them was mutated by exposure to Cor-Dum, which they seemed pleased with."

"So it can't really be taken as indication that they're still opposed to Chaos."

"That's my interpretation," you reply with a nod. "They were also maintaining the flow of energy southwards, but I don't know if they had any way to know that it had been hijacked to keep Karak Vlag trapped in the Aethyr, so that can't really be taken as proof one way or the other, either."
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I mean, if we had a bit more information from somebody local to the thing, we might have more of an idea about whether Dum is still hostile to the Marauder Tribes or not. To me it seemed like they were still hostile; Morghur and the Beastmen were hostile to the Kurgans, but the Kurgans were merely using him as a useful (if dangerous) resource. It was an asymmetrical situation sure, but not a friendly one -- merely perhaps an unexpected or unforeseen one. Or at least so I hope.

... I wonder if Thorek and Kragg will have any insight to give on Cor-Dum or on what went on?
 
[X] Loremaster Sinecure
[X] Loremaster-at-Large of Karak Eight Peaks

Approval voting:
[] The Waystone Project
[] Markgraf of Eastern Stirland
[] Research Sabbatical
 
[X] Loremaster-at-Large of Karak Eight Peaks
[X] Markgraf of Eastern Stirland
[X] Ambassador-at-Large to the Karaz Ankor
[X] Governor-General of Swamp Town
[X] Border Princess of the Howling River
[X] The Waystone Project
 
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ALanos said:
You do know that there is a large hole of the agency of both Mathilde and Emperor Luitpold because both can work in benefitting the Imperial House to smoothen succession to Mandred. Mathilde's boss is ultimately not just Heide in this she is more of her equal her real boss is the Imperial Household led by the emperor and while he may have both a chamberlain and his wife control things he would always have a personal eye on his heir since he lost his last wife due to unknown reasons. So, he would also be the one to order Mathilde on something if he believes it is important to his house and its not like Mathilde will be obscured he needs to know everyone working for the household especially when it specifically concerns his heir. That's why I find it dubious that our only contact is Heidi when we would be getting a job for the palace itself and it was just Heidi's connections that got us in. She may be our boss by virtue of her being the Empress but she knows that she is Mathilde's equal in the eyes of Ranald so she won't do anything that would harm her relations with Mathilde who can investigate things on what job she would like.
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Oh! Multiple bosses and managers with different priorities. How fun!

Regarding the arguments that Mathilde is just as needed as an Empire troubleshooter at Heidi's side as she is in the other jobs, I'm wholly on the side of those who disagree. If we want to be dutiful then every option other than Sinecure and hereditary countess are a better choice. Tutoring and aiding the heir of Reikland and his family is a powergrab, pure and simple. It provides power to our most powerful political ally within our own nation, while also binding us closer to her and making her success our success. It lets us influence the most likely heir to the Imperial Throne, so that he is more aligned with our ideals and more supportive of our personal goals in the future. It gives us carte blanche (or close to it) to personally entreat with Imperial high nobility and institutions, while having the backing of the Emperor. It elevates our personal religion, whose deity we are personal friends with, all the while putting said deity in our debt. Taking the Mandred's tutor option is putting Mathilde's self-interest first (except with more long term ambition and less immediate reward than the other two selfish options). Any long term altruistic motives are at best about "with more power we can help more people" and "our religion and ideology is good for the masses". I am completely okay with that, which is why I will vote for it. But lets not delude ourselves too much when it comes to which job provides the most
 
Here's what I don't get: Why do people want Waystones so badly now, rather than any of the excellent time-sensitive offers we have? Waystones seems like the kind of thing we could spend a lifetime on, so why not wait until we've unfucked the Empire/Dwarves by troubleshooting them a bit more. Whether as Edgelord, Loremaster, whatever. Seems to me like 10 turns later we'll be holding a vote to see if we want to put Waystones research on hold to go off somewhere else and the Dwarves/Empire will be worse off because we didn't maintain the momentum of fixing shit up.

We are eminently qualified for both Nuln and Sylvania. Even more so for Loremaster. Bodyguard is a nice change of pace that lets us do all of the above to some extent. Border Princess is more dwarves and trade with some Empire in it. Kislev is something completely new. Sabbatical is us kicking our backlog in the ass and establishing our bona fides for later when we do Waystones as Fayhem mentioned.

Seems to me like people are putting the cart before the horse. Waystones is so long term that it doesn't matter if we figure it out in 30-40 years if the Empire and dwarves are not in a good enough position to take advantage of it, because there was a disaster retaking some hold and now the dwarves are depressed again or the Skaven conquered and razed Nuln, or some von Carstein woke up.
 
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