- Location
- USA
[X] Yes.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
-
- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
*handwaggle*
On the one hand, we've got this:
But on the other, we've got this:
So the way I interpret this is that dwarves are free to personally worship another god, but any sort of large-scale proselytization or attempt to institutionally entice dwarves to venerate a non-Ancestor God is going to be met with extreme suspicion which can easily transition into extreme hostility.
Anyway, this vote makes me extremely anxious and I'm going to go back to hiding under my table until the update happens or someone else has another question I can answer, as opposed to the current question of "what happens next" to which I have no answer but "aaaaahhh" and praying to Ranald that any dice that get rolled break our way.
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I expect he just didn't think they'd stay.
If the Throng of Karak Azul was wiped out, I don't exactly give Karak Azul great odds. I'm sure that Kazador had that in the back of his head while everything was going on.
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
*Laughs in Thucydides*
I'm pretty sure that Imperial dwarves widely worship Sigmar as god of the Empire of which they've chosen to be subjects. It's the civic religion of the Empire, which citizens in good standing, as imperial dwarves are or aspire to be, participate in as a matter of course.
Remember this is a polytheistic setting inspired by classical/Roman* religious practices. Religion is as much transactional as it is about faith as modern religious practice has it. You sacrifice to the relevant god to propitiate them and either bless or not curse you, and to signal that you're part of the community. That's what worship is for.
This is (probably) religious practice based on orthopraxy not orthodoxy.
* someone who wrote some of the Warhammer religious material clearly had read something about Roman religious belief, where both excessive devotion to gods (superstitio) and insufficient observance of the correct practices (vitia) was problematic.
Remember this is a polytheistic setting inspired by classical/Roman* religious practices. Religion is as much transactional as it is about faith as modern religious practice has it. You sacrifice to the relevant god to propitiate them and either bless or not curse you, and to signal that you're part of the community. That's what worship is for.
This is (probably) religious practice based on orthopraxy not orthodoxy.
* someone who wrote some of the Warhammer religious material clearly had read something about Roman religious belief, where both excessive devotion to gods (superstitio) and insufficient observance of the correct practices (vitia) was problematic.
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
And the Lost Causers, various German generals of WW2, and a number of other cases.
It's a meme, but it's not an accurate one.
- Location
- Finland
Sigmar is probably a bit of an edge case, what with the "saved Karaz Ankor and created an empire to aid it" thing.
There may dwarves, especially imperial ones, who do worship non ancestor gods, but doing so instead of ancestor gods, instead of alongside them, would probably be a extreme minority, and probably going to stay somewhat quiet about it.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Tome of Salvation at least said that Dwarfs don't worship Sigmar.
Given that both Sigmars Heirs and ToS note that Imperial Dwarfs tend to keep to themselves and congregate in their own districts, I expect they keep to the AG strongly, for purposes of community and trying to maintain their connection to their old homeland. Not unusual for an expatriate culture.
Fayhem
Definitely not an escaped SCP
- Location
- At large
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I got pulled away for a minute for work stuff so hopefully the conversation didn't move too far past what I wanted to say in response. Let me go through these point by point.
Point Zero (the unspoken assumption underlying this thesis AFAICT): Your argument is premised on the belief that Thorgrim has never sought or used human help. But we don't actually know that Thorgrim hasn't been trying to use human help. Belegar got the idea to try addressing the Elector's Meet and requesting aid from the Empire from somewhere. And at the time he was absolutely still working with Thorgrim on trying to assemble this Expedition. For an indication of how closely they were working at the time, you know how Clan Angrund was 100% runed up for the Expedition, every last member? That most certainly was not because they were rich enough to just afford that. It was part of the material support for the Expedition; at least in canon this was partly from Thorek (it's unclear to me if that's true here, since Karak Azul doesn't appear to have become involved or aware until later), and the other part was from Thorgrim opening his own armories to them. So I think it's necessary that Thorgrim would have at least known it was something Belegar wanted to try and he doesn't seem to have tried to shut it down, and it's plausible that Thorgrim might have even suggested it.
And IIRC Boney indicated that Belegar going to the Electors happened in canon (I think? hopefully not misremembering that as I don't have the cite), but instead of putting out an open call for adventurers and whoever else wanted to show up Belegar just left after he got a big fat load of nothing from the Electors, and only managed to put together a much smaller Expedition years or decades later. Which honestly is more consistent with the dwarven mindset: if the King of a Hold says no, trying to lure warriors from that Hold into joining you without their King's approval would AFAICT very likely not meet dawi standards of propriety at all, and we've seen that many dwarves aren't great about adjusting their expectations to how humans work instead.
Further, here's a quote from the WHF wiki entry ("grain of salt" rule may apply there tbf) for K8P:
So it does seem that humans being involved was not unprecedented even before the quest-canon K8P Expedition, though the phrasing doesn't make it clear if those were entirely separate human expeditions or if they were a portion of some of the dwarves' expeditions. IIRC the canon-canon Expedition had a few humans as well actually, just in numbers proportionate to the wildly diminished size of the Expedition overall.
Point the First: See point zero.
Point the Second: See point zero.
Point the Third: When the dwarves were considering sealing up their Holds and dwindling away after the Great War Against Chaos, I think it's notable that the scenario being considered was sealing up their Holds, not making arrangements to hand the keys over to the manlings. Willingly letting any non-dwarves take over their Holds doesn't really seem to ever enter the dwarves' idiom as a culture. Karag Nar is only viable in the quest because the Umgi are there to work for the dawi instead of holding it in their own right, because there's frankly not enough dwarves for defense even with the Umgi shouldering some of the load so writing them off would make things that much worse, and most crucially AFAICT because there are seven other mountains that do not feature permanent non-dwarf populations of any meaningful size. And sealing up rather than passing their homes on to the humans was what pretty much every Hold was considering doing BEFORE Thorgrim got involved and spoke against it, so IMO there's really no plausible way to pin that on him.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
The idea that history is written by the winners is an idea about the general narrative, not saying that literally only winners ever write history. For instance, the widespread lack of knowledge or care about the war crimes committed by the Allies during WW2. There are exceptions to this, but to claim that the idea that history is written by the winners is untrue is to dismiss that they have an incredibly heavy influence on the record.
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
"History is written by the historically preserved documents and historians, of whom winners often tend to have more than those defeated."
Generally, dwarfs worship ancestors.
now most people think of the big ones, but every clan has their own, that only that clan worships.
because they are ancestors for that clan only. (though I guess in time that can change, with how intermarriage works.)
even if imperial dwarfs see Sigmar as the human 'Ancestor god' (and really, I would argue that he does have a lot more in common with them then the other human gods, as even Ranald and Myrmidia have arguments about if they were actually human or if it was just a trick/avatar) he is not 'their' Ancestor god as they can't draw any line of descent from him.
now most people think of the big ones, but every clan has their own, that only that clan worships.
because they are ancestors for that clan only. (though I guess in time that can change, with how intermarriage works.)
even if imperial dwarfs see Sigmar as the human 'Ancestor god' (and really, I would argue that he does have a lot more in common with them then the other human gods, as even Ranald and Myrmidia have arguments about if they were actually human or if it was just a trick/avatar) he is not 'their' Ancestor god as they can't draw any line of descent from him.
more Accurate, but not as witty a quote. 5/10.
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- Location
- Greece
Genghis Khan would disagree. He failed to control the narrative because the people he displaced were often high classes, aka those educated enough to write history.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
The Lady and everyone playing along (as opposed being swept along) might well know what they're doing, using the power of narrative made manifest and whatnot. That doesn't invalidate game theory being a thing though, even among them.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
This is wrong. The word Dawren is "dwarflike" "seems okay but hasn't proven itself yet"
Not dwarf.
The one part of the end times I actually didn't mind was the idea that Bretonnia was basically a god playing house just to prove to her husband that she could do the whole 'mortal race thing' better than him.
consequences
Not A Nice Person At All
- Location
- Jerkville
Which means that he wasn't listening to Belegar or didn't believe him when he made his direct personal outburst regarding the status of his 'foothold.'
You'll also also note that Kazador's attitude after being abandoned by his high king was 'we got this fam.' Which means that Thorgrim either didn't take the time to develop a rapport and understanding with a reunited Old Hold which might not hold and thus accelerate the fall of the Karaz Ankor if their expeditionary throng gets wiped out(or, you know, run down by the hordes of wolf riding gobbos about as they Xenophon stage right), or again completely misread the Dawi.
There's no path here that doesn't go through Derp Pass, across the Derp Steppes, and over the Derp's Edge Mountains.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
While I suspect that Genghis was better thought of than you think, yeah. There's a reason I said there are exceptions. I just don't like writing the whole thing off because it's not 100% true.
That's not actually why the Lady made Bretonnia a thing in End Times. She was just using its best and brightest to protect a tiny pocket dimension full of people she actually cared about in the hope that it would survive and then the cycle of Chaos destroying the world would be broken.
to be fair.
1: not actually a bad idea, callous, but its arguably a smart plan, and absolutely the smartest plan out of the shitshow that was everyone else's plans.
2: While the original plan was 'create soldiers to protect the elfs.' the narrative was implying that she was coming down on the side of the grail knights being the ones worth protecting and giving the new world too. (or she was just hot for kingly boytoys, one or the other.)
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
My understanding is that she sent the Grail Knights to protect her realm, but put her daughter and Araloth, her consort there to rule it. And then it got destroyed. Probably. It might turn up to recreate Bretonnia in AoS at some point.
' The spirits of this realm were those of the Grail Knights and would be used as part of her plan to rebuild humanity. She chose the souls of Louen Leoncoeur and Gilles le Breton after the destruction of the Warhammer World to become part of her successor's pantheon for this new world, replacing the gods of old.'
looks like she chose the knights over most of the elfs too me.
' Lileath eventually lost contact with both her daughter and her realm. At first, she feared it may have been destroyed, but it later became apparent that the Haven had been drowned out by the increasing power of Chaos, and the dawning end of the world-that-was... '
ya, 'return of Knightland' hook right there.
- Location
- Washington
[x] Yes
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
[x] No
