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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DragonParadox said:
Ah but we do know one important thing we did not know before, Borek of Karak Dum is an honorless traitor who abandoned those he was supposed to lead. Add the silent hold and 'they don't want or need help' is an entirely reasonable conclusion.
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DragonParadox said:
It does not matter if he is sitting on a pile of corpses, he abandoned us without explanation after we swore to accompany him to hell. That is cause enough to deem him culpable all on its own.
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Would you have said the same if he'd gone Slayer upon reaching Karag Dum?

Dwarves have so many issues they need an extra room of records and a dozen Longbeards wise in Grudgelore to help.
Katahiraga said:
To be fair the dwarves somehow did steal Moghur's powers and look what happen to them.
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Maybe it's a party in there 24/7! Only one way to find out!
 
BelligerentGnu said:
This raises more questions than it answers, but it does seem to lend credence to the co-opted Morghur theory.

Also, if I have the timeline right, this would mean they might have captured Morghur before Borek left - perhaps they captured him, and then decided that they'd only weaponize him if Borek couldn't gather reinforcements. Which would explain Borek's reaction to seeing Morghur pretty thoroughly.

It also explains why Morghur might try to warn us off - perhaps the Dum dwarves don't want to/ can't risk contact with dwarves or humans anymore, but still don't want to hurt us.



What about this: Morghur has always been able to apply his aura selectively, but until he was co-opted by Dum, he never had a reason to. Thus, we see mutated human bones around, but Borek, a Dum native, and the tree which support the beastman army, are not mutated.

...wait a second. I could have sworn backwards and sideways I remember a passage from one of the two updates describing "Human, Not-quite-Human and horse bones", but it's definitely not there now. @BoneyM, did you edit that out or have I just lost the plot?
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The not quite human bones could, have been done by the 4 chaos gods themselves, like the mutated Dolgan, Mathilde met before, then the mutated person with his warband was sent to die against Morghur.
 
You know people have been making the comparison between Borek and Belegar and it took me a while to realize why it sat so badly with me. It's because Belegar soldiered on, he took his responsibilities seriously and dealt with his anguish in a way that did not hurt others. What Borek did here is the equivalent of:

*tosses crown to K8P into the Deeps*

Belegar: Woe is me. I have used intrigue. All of you leave this place and let me mourn my SHAME. Tell Thorgrim I did my best. Woe, woe I say! Karak Eight Peaks is dead!

Does that Belegar seem sympathetic? Would you risk Mathilde's life to try to comfort him? Because I know I wouldn't
 
Valmond said:
Also, I doubt the mutation aura is constantly hitting everything, otherwise the beastmen would be unable to exist close to Morghul.
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This is canon.
Beastmen go on pilgrimage to stand around Morghur, if they survive then they return home and become important tribal leaders.
Might not be thread canon though, but it's GW canon.

On a related note, it's possible that the scope and power of his passive was exaggerated somewhat. When telling war stories and myths it's pretty common. I wouldn't be surprised if it just takes a while longer.
Or, I suppose, it could be that the desert generating effect reinforces local Reality against Morghur's aura. If the two were in something of an equilibrium it would help explain the lack of obvious and rapid effects.
 
wrecksalot said:
Well, there's a hypothesis that lets Morghur have his aura and only runs into the problem of the lack of chaos spawn or chaos spawn bones. Combined with the hypothesis that either the beastmen or the dwwarves are hiding the bones from us for giggles that's at least not impossible given the information we have. In that case, I propose that we ask Morghur for entrance, since this lets us find out what's up with Karag Dum without prompting him to use his aura. It makes infiltration a bit harder if we fail, but that's an acceptable risk to me, since the chances of bypassing the need to infiltrate should be better than any difficulty increase from talking with him.
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Lack of found bones.
Again, our search has been limited by area and time, and as others have pointed, lack of chaos spawn bones would be in itself suspicious because Kurgans would be importing them into the area.
And i have provided you with a plausible method for uneven bone distribution that requires no intentional hiding of chaos spawn.

If you feel we must get into the dwarf hold that seemingly does not want us in it, that's fine, but any arguments that there is no aura need to be tempered a bit due to lack of information.
 
@Voikirium

This may have been addressed since I saw it posted, but...

The main difference I see in character between any normal dwarf and Malekith is that dwarves, for all that they are driven by spite and vengeance, have honor. You ran a Bretonnia Quest; you know why that matters.

A character that is driven by vengeance and wrath, and utterly unethical in their choice of how to act on these motives, is going to be much, much worse than the same character is when they are strictly, inflexibly ethical in their choice of how to act on their motives.
 
Valmond said:
Lack of found bones.
Again, our search has been limited by area and time, and as others have pointed, lack of chaos spawn bones would be in itself suspicious because Kurgans would be importing them into the area.
And i have provided you with a plausible method for uneven bone distribution that requires no intentional hiding of chaos spawn.

If you feel we must get into the dwarf hold that seemingly does not want us in it, that's fine, but any arguments that there is no aura need to be tempered a bit due to lack of information.
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Is that the "maybe the chaos spawn are alive and very sneaky" theory? I suppose that isn't literally impossible either

Edit, or is that the "maybe he doesn't turn things into chaos spawn but rather beastmen, and the update was lying about no sudden mutation" theory?
 
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DragonParadox said:
Not really. Even the Everqueen can't reverse mutation that severe. There was a story in lore where she turned a Slaaesh Champion natural again and then a pissed off Lord of Excess made him a spawn. She gave it up at that point.
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Isn't that basically the Everqueen succeeding in reversing mutation but the patient just got murdered afterwards?
 
if people posit there are chaos spawn hiding in the forest, they would have to be sneakier than the beastmen, because we can at least see the shadows of those guys.
 
DragonParadox said:
Patient is overstating it a bit. The champion was trying to kill her at the time. My point was that even she gave up when he turned into spawn.
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The idea is that a reverse Moghur would automatically reverse spawnhood and mutations but it would also be lethal. Which if it were the Everqueen doing it would be pointless compared to killing them, since you have the same result. But if you're just reversing a mutation effect..
 
wrecksalot said:
Is that the "maybe the chaos spawn are alive and very sneaky" theory? I suppose that isn't literally impossible either

Edit, or is that the "maybe he doesn't turn things into chaos spawn but rather beastmen, and the update was lying about no sudden mutation" theory?
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Kurgan charge the forest, some turn to chaos spawn and mostly die there.
Beastmen charge the desert and mostly die there.
Chaos spawn bones will be mostly in the forest, and human/beastman bones dominate the desert.
We have not had the time for a comprehensive study of the bones, nor have we made a wide search of the desert.
 
wrecksalot said:
if people posit there are chaos spawn hiding in the forest, they would have to be sneakier than the beastmen, because we can at least see the shadows of those guys.
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BoneyM said:
They'd be delighted to welcome her to the tribe, and feed her the best Chaos Spawn meat, and introduce her to their Gods, and give her the honour of receiving exciting new tattoos and scars...
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BoneyM said:
Chaos Spawn meat is only for honoured guests, not for selling.
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The Kurgan make sure to bring any Chaos Spawn back with them for Consumption and that's why there aren't any bones of them in the desert.
 
DragonParadox said:
You know people have been making the comparison between Borek and Belegar and it took me a while to realize why it sat so badly with me. It's because Belegar soldiered on, he took his responsibilities seriously and dealt with his anguish in a way that did not hurt others. What Borek did here is the equivalent of:

*tosses crown to K8P into the Deeps*

Belegar: Woe is me. I have used intrigue. All of you leave this place and let me mourn my SHAME. Tell Thorgrim I did my best. Woe, woe I say! Karak Eight Peaks is dead!

Does that Belegar seem sympathetic? Would you risk Mathilde's life to try to comfort him? Because I know I wouldn't
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You're glossing over the fact that Belegar soldiered on after WINNING EPICALLY. Using "Low war" tactics was a blow that was softened by a reclaimed hold. That it needed to be softened says a lot.

Getting to Karag Dum was not Borek's victory condition.
Karag Dum still stands, but in a form that makes all his effort to get help worthless. Karaz Ankor will not want to help them anymore, and the news we will take South does not paint a pretty picture. It's a very different sort of "victory" than Belegars.

After Belegar won, he got universal acclaim and the Okral.
After Borek "won", he got a suspended death sentence for his Hold (until they have the numbers and strength to go cleanse them {i.e. never}).
 
I think the expeditions been in life threatening danger for so long that we're starting to have trouble realizing when the level of danger ratchets up much higher.
 
Valmond said:
Kurgan charge the forest, some turn to chaos spawn and mostly die there.
Beastmen charge the desert and mostly die there.
Chaos spawn bones will be mostly in the forest, and human/beastman bones dominate the desert.
We have not had the time for a comprehensive study of the bones, nor have we made a wide search of the desert.
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You know the Kurgan would have to cross the desert to reach the forest, right? And we know Cor Blimey can enter the desert, because that's where we saw him in the first place, so there is no reason why he would wait until they got to the forest to start fighting, especially since there are beastmen skulls out here, implying that the defenders sally out and die or that attackers are fought there and die. If the beastmen corpses are from them dying from trying to leave, then why are there also large amounts of human and horse corpses there?

LightLan said:
The Kurgan make sure to bring any Chaos Spawn back with them for Consumption and that's why there aren't any bones of them in the desert.
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The baestmen ate the attacker's corpses, and there are horse bones here, which implies that the beastmen had control of the field after the battle, since otherwise the kurgan would've taken at least the horses and maybe the people for consumption as well.
 
IronFist said:
You're glossing over the fact that Belegar soldiered on after WINNING EPICALLY. Using "Low war" tactics was a blow that was softened by a reclaimed hold. That it needed to be softened says a lot.

Getting to Karag Dum was not Borek's victory condition.
Karag Dum still stands, but in a form that makes all his effort to get help worthless. Karaz Ankor will not want to help them anymore, and the news we will take South does not paint a pretty picture. It's a very different sort of "victory" than Belegars.

After Belegar won, he got universal acclaim and the Okral.
After Borek "won", he got a suspended death sentence for his Hold (until they have the numbers and strength to go cleanse them {i.e. never}).
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I am glossing over nothing. We don't now how the Karaz Ankor would react and he does not either, because he shouted Woe and ran into the woods to pet a beastman.
 
wrecksalot said:
The bestmen ate the attacker's corpses, and there are horse bones here, which implies that the beastmen had control of the field after the battle, since otherwise the kurgan would've taken at least the horses and maybe the people for consumption as well.
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Kurgan count Chaos Spawn meat as blessed, they are more willing to risk getting that than any horse or human.
 
wrecksalot said:
You know the Kurgan would have to cross the desert to reach the forest, right? And we know Cor Blimey can enter the desert, because that's where we saw him in the first place, so there is no reason why he would wait until they got to the forest to start fighting, especially since there are beastmen skulls out here, implying that the defenders sally out and die or that attackers are fought there and die. If the beastmen corpses are from them dying from trying to leave, then why are there also large amounts of human and horse corpses there?
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Horse nomads, Kurgan will be moving fast when attacking, but will be disadvantaged in the forest.
And just because Morghul can enter the desert does not meant he will, forest is more advantageous for him, and if he is suddenly using his brainmeats, he might decide to not come out to play.
And not dying from trying to leave, dying when attacking the Kurgan either while they are charging to, or retreating from, the forest.
Until we actually see Kurgans fight Morghul, preferably in several instances, and see some shamans try to cast near him, we have very little to say with any level of certainty.
 
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