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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Abhorsen said:
He doesn't have to even notice us to instagib us. If Mathilde miscasts anywhere that would be considered on the same battlefield as him, she's instagibbed. He also, lorewise (the game is designed to be balanced), can't be injured permanently by normal means. In lore, killing him was beyond the Avatar of Isha, who had to draw on the forest's power to do so, and even that wasn't permanent. None of the elves weapons could even harm him.

Also, given that the winds look like a kaleidoscope, the chances of us miscasting seem even higher than normal. And note that we probably are usually okay with slight miscasts occasionally, but even a slight miscast is insta death.

Casting magic is stupid under such conditions. Don't do it until we are sure that it is safe. Fortunately, by waiting a day, we can see what happens to spellcasters from the hopefully attacking other tribes. If we don't see magic cast, that also tells us that they had good reason not to bring the shaman, or the shaman knew not to cast, so that's evidence it's not safe.
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Any miscast has a chance to instagib us at any time. we actually have a trait based on how often we've used magic to infiltrate places, and magic 9. We don't need to kill him, just not get murdered by him, so his durability is not an issue. Put together with the fact that all we have are rumours that he can turn people into Chaos Spawn, and rather a lot of evidence to the contrary, Headpats, Trees, and Bones that say he isn't doing that for some reason. I was only looking at the tabletop stats to get a rough image of where we stand, I wasn't intending to turn it into a versus debate, just to dispel some of the paranoia around Morgur's personal combat skills. Casting magic is probably fine under these conditions, and preferable to fighting an arbitrary number of beastmen by ourselves, or rolling the dice on that dang road again IMO.
 
From what I've heard there's several disconnects between the tabletop crunch and the lore for the sake of playability. How strong they are in tabletop has some correlation to how strong they are in lore but the again tactics effective in Total War games have some correlation with tactics used by real life militaries, that doesn't mean it's close enough to be remotely useful if you try to use what you learned in one in the other. It's at best an extremely approximate toy model.
 
Let's not go murdering people who haven't yet demonstrated themselves to be malicious. Especially when they can kill us back.
 
NexusEye said:
From what I've heard there's several disconnects between the tabletop crunch and the lore for the sake of playability. How strong they are in tabletop has some correlation to how strong they are in lore but the again tactics effective in Total War games have some correlation with tactics used by real life militaries, that doesn't mean it's close enough to be remotely useful if you try to use what you learned in one in the other. It's at best an extremely approximate toy model.
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I know that, but talk in the thread lead me to believe that Morghur eats bloodthirsters for breakfast in melee, but that is apparently not the case.
Shard said:
Let's not go murdering people who haven't yet demonstrated themselves to be malicious.
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I'm not advocating for that, I'm just pointing out that him catching up to us if we try to sneak or run past him is not an instant game over.
 
I didn't post the tabletop crunch to try to imply we should go hunt Morghur down and kill him; that's definitely too much.

But I feel like there's a middle ground between 'Meh I can take him' and 'unmitigated terror at sharing the same miles-long stretch of forest with Morghur, fly and don't stop running until you're back in Praag.' The vote in the lead is in that middle-ground, I just think 'stealth up and leg it for Dum' exists there too.
 
BoneyM said:
The right of the High King is to travel freely within the Karaz Ankor, but the responsibility of the High King is to preserve the rights of the Kings of the Karaz Ankor, including their right to say who can and cannot enter their Hold. So it's a grey area.
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Thorgrim: As the high king it is my right to walk through this door, and my duty to make sure you can bar me from doing so. :V
 
" So long as the Rune of Azamar endures, the Karaz Ankor shall never fall.

But to those who know the Dwarves, a question might present itself: what payment did the Karaz Ankor receive for their service? For the pride of the Dawi would not allow them to work for free... Each Karak was transformed into an enormous Waystone, and all magic, whether ambient and benign or the shaped power of the spellcasters of other races, would be absorbed into the leylines and redirected to the mighty and ancient Runic arrays at the heart of Karaz-a-Karak, which would shackle and transform the magic into the energy of Runecraft. Which in turn would power the Great Works left behind by the Ancestor-Gods...But now, it powered much less than it once did... Still fresh and bloody was the loss of Karag Dum and Karak Vlag in the Great War Against Chaos."
-A Tide Turns

""The leaders of the Runesmiths Guild of Karag Dum call themselves 'Runemasters'."

You contemplate that as you look at Thorek's grave expression. "That's it?"

"'Runelord' is the title Thungni bestowed upon the son that succeeded Him when He departed," he explains patiently. "Those that oppose Karag Dum's Runesmiths say that to declare that insufficient is to say that they have reached heights that one taught by Thungni Himself could not reach."

"So it's something of a religious schism."

"And a Clan feud, and a Guild dispute. That is the foundation of the conflict, but not the climax of it. In the Runesmith Conclave of 6769, the last that Karag Dum attended, they announced that Chaos was waxing and that all efforts needed to be spent preparing to withstand it. This was taken poorly, seen as an attempt for Karag Dum to increase their status. Karag Dum has always been focused entirely on the threat of Chaos and has always called for more efforts spent to oppose it, so this was seen as their usual rhetoric, only more so."

You make the mental conversion to the Imperial Calendar - 2246 - and you're pretty sure you know where this is going. "But it wasn't. They were right."

Thorek sighs. "It is easy to see that now. But from what I've been told - and it seems to be true - that century was a tumultuous time in the Old World. High King Alrik had died in battle at the Battle of Black Falls, Bretonnia was tearing itself apart over succession, humans marched on Nehekhara time and time again and agitated the Tomb Kings into a great deal of activity beyond their borders. Worst of all, at the time of the Conclave Ulthuan's forces were on the march in the Old World. In the face of all that, it seemed very self-serving for Karag Dum to announce that it was Chaos that was the real threat. A great deal was said in hot blood, every word of it recorded for posterity."

"What were the Elves doing?"

"Pursuing the Beastman demigod Cor-Dum, but that was not known at the time. The Phoenix King Finubar was still new to the throne, and many Dwarves suspected the worst when his forces made landfall in the Old World."

"So when the Great War Against Chaos proved Karag Dum right..."

"Influential and ambitious Runelords had their words against Karag Dum indelibly recorded. If they had taken the warnings seriously, and fifty years had been spent exerting all effort of the Karaz Ankor to prepare against the coming storm..." Thorek shrugs.
-Turn 32. We'll Fight the Hordes, and Sing and Cry
" I don't know if Morghur's been sighted in the Old World since the Great War Against Chaos-"
"Not since the Battle of Arden in 2244," Sir Joerg says.

Two years after Cor Dum's defeat by the elves, Karak Dum warns of Chaos's waxing upon the earth.
 
Guile said:
'unmitigated terror at sharing the same miles-long stretch of forest with Morghur, fly and don't stop running until you're back in Praag.'
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Eh, my impression of discussion is about like that, people tend on the side of "cast Lights and you're guaranteed spawn", emphasis on "guaranteed". Tabletop rules were somewhat helpful to dispel this aptitude, I think.
 
BoneyM said:
It is if an organ you need to keep on living decides to become something else instead. That's the threat of Morghur. He's not a melee blender, he's a walking mutation aura.
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Yeah, if he does have his mutation aura then that would be a problem,if this is intended to be WoG on whether he has it or not then I'm sorry, but from what we know IC he does not seem to have it, since our Jade can't see any mutations on the trees, and we don't see any chaos spawn or their bones.
 
wrecksalot said:
Any miscast has a chance to instagib us at any time. we actually have a trait based on how often we've used magic to infiltrate places, and magic 9. We don't need to kill him, just not get murdered by him, so his durability is not an issue. Put together with the fact that all we have are rumours that he can turn people into Chaos Spawn, and rather a lot of evidence to the contrary, Headpats, Trees, and Bones that say he isn't doing that for some reason. I was only looking at the tabletop stats to get a rough image of where we stand, I wasn't intending to turn it into a versus debate, just to dispel some of the paranoia around Morgur's personal combat skills. Casting magic is probably fine under these conditions, and preferable to fighting an arbitrary number of beastmen by ourselves, or rolling the dice on that dang road again IMO.
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On the subject of that damn road, not to be callous but we are not in any great danger from it nor are the knights wizards or the Dragon Rider. Dead dwarfs and destroyed wagons would make thigns dire for the dwarfs, but as soon as we are out of the wastes we can just shadowsteed our way to civilization. It would be sad for Snori and the Rangers or the remaining engineers to die, but it's not exactly a quest ender. 'Your lungs just turned into fish heads' is.
 
wrecksalot said:
Yeah, if he does have his mutation aura then that would be a problem,if this is intended to be WoG on whether he has it or not then I'm sorry, but from what we know IC he does not seem to have it, since our Jade can't see any mutations on the trees, and we don't see any chaos spawn or their bones.
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If that's enough proof for you to bet Mathilde's life on, then sure. Others are less convinced, hence their apprehension.
 
wrecksalot said:
Any miscast has a chance to instagib us at any time.
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Normally when we miscast, we get a second roll on a miscast table, and things can still work out for us, like at the High Pass. The wording of the text we're given implies that the second table gets replaced by turning into a chaos spawn, either no roll or a high DC to pass. So this would be significantly riskier than, say, chaincasting substance of shadow during the Skull River rescue.
 
We have no where near enough evidence to risk getting instagibed on a hope that he doesn't have a mutation aura, especially when we know he has some kind of aura or something:
BoneyM said:
your eyes locked on the figure as it tosses its head to and fro, sending energies arcing through the air with every motion.
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So yeah, there's little reason to believe it is safe.

Godwinson said:
An aura which is conspicuously lacking in any traces of it in all observation of the interior of the crater.
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You mean that aura that was noted in the update?
 
I mean, I'm sure if we dug hard enough through the bones, we could find evidence of chaos spawn here. The problem is that wouldn't be conclusive: the tribes call their spawn "blessed", and given the reaction we got when negotiating passage, bringing them up to Dum is hardly a surprise.
 
Here's a thought: Boney has said that the winning vote will happen first, and the second vote will happen if it makes sense to after the first one (paraphrasing, I don't have the post in front of me).

Doesn't it make more sense for the current first and second votes to flip, so Mathilde goes to visit the Kurgan and the group fortifies and runs a few miscellaneous tests afterwards? Rather than spending a day fortifying, and only then going to look for answers on the 'How bad a dude is Morghur' front. It's just a difference of 4 votes, we could flip that easy.
 
Guile said:
Here's a thought: Boney has said that the winning vote will happen first, and the second vote will happen if it makes sense to after the first one (paraphrasing, I don't have the post in front of me).

Doesn't it make more sense for the current first and second votes to flip, so Mathilde goes to visit the Kurgan and the group fortifies and runs a few miscellaneous tests afterwards? Rather than spending a day fortifying, and only then going to look for answers on the 'How bad a dude is Morghur' front. It's just a difference of 4 votes, we could flip that easy.
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It does, yes.
 
We have not had time do anything approaching within visual distance of a comprehensive study of the bones.
Also, I doubt the mutation aura is constantly hitting everything, otherwise the beastmen would be unable to exist close to Morghul.
The aura could be a voluntary thing, turned on/off, possibly even with IFF, maybe Beastmen are highly resistant and trees are magic.
 
Guile said:
Here's a thought: Boney has said that the winning vote will happen first, and the second vote will happen if it makes sense to after the first one (paraphrasing, I don't have the post in front of me).

Doesn't it make more sense for the current first and second votes to flip, so Mathilde goes to visit the Kurgan and the group fortifies and runs a few miscellaneous tests afterwards? Rather than spending a day fortifying, and only then going to look for answers on the 'How bad a dude is Morghur' front. It's just a difference of 4 votes, we could flip that easy.
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Yeah, ill approval vote that.
[X] Leave
[X] Approach the Kvellige camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them
 
Guile said:
Here's a thought: Boney has said that the winning vote will happen first, and the second vote will happen if it makes sense to after the first one (paraphrasing, I don't have the post in front of me).

Doesn't it make more sense for the current first and second votes to flip, so Mathilde goes to visit the Kurgan and the group fortifies and runs a few miscellaneous tests afterwards? Rather than spending a day fortifying, and only then going to look for answers on the 'How bad a dude is Morghur' front. It's just a difference of 4 votes, we could flip that easy.
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I don't think that's what happens, if spend a day fortifying wins we do that and then vote on what to do afterwards, or we vote on how to react to whatever interrupted us. You might be mixing things up with the fact that longer term experiments will be carried out regardless of what wins so long as it's not Leave.

That being said I do hope the result flips.

BoneyM said:
One result wins, then either respond to whatever that kicks up or decide on the next step with the new information.
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ReImagined said:
Normally when we miscast, we get a second roll on a miscast table, and things can still work out for us, like at the High Pass. The wording of the text we're given implies that the second table gets replaced by turning into a chaos spawn, either no roll or a high DC to pass. So this would be significantly riskier than, say, chaincasting substance of shadow during the Skull River rescue.
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Yeah, but using magic to infiltrate places is a lot less spellcasting than that, we have a trait that means that it usually does not require a roll, and all the individual spells are safe to cast for us by a pretty safe margin, so if there is a roll, the dc to avoid miscast will probably be much lower, thereby alleviating that increased risk.
Abhorsen said:
We have no where near enough evidence to risk getting instagibed on a hope that he doesn't have a mutation aura, especially when we know he has some kind of aura or something:
So yeah, there's little reason to believe it is safe.
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his uncontrollable mutation aura, which mutates everything around him uncontrollably? there is plenty of evidence that he either does not have access to that or refuses to use it, as evidenced by the Headpats and Trees and distinct lack of Chaos Spawn or Bones of such. And even if he does it isn't risking getting instagibbed, it is at worst risking risking risking getting instagibbed, we're risking there being a roll to infiltrate at all (admittedly, this is probably the case),that we fail that roll (unlikely but possible with 25 intrigue a skill and a trait related to infiltration) and that he can catch up to us (unlikely but possible. he could be pretty fast and not distracted by either of the two other fronts.) At that point we would be rolling against being instagibbed, but that's like double the rolls that just casting Rite of Way on the way here would've required. Admittedly, if he has his screw spellcasters in particular aura on, it would only be one more roll(for whether Morghur was available on this front or not.) and the last roll would be at a much higher dc, so the risk might be a little bit higher.

Valmond said:
We have not had time do anything approaching within visual distance of a comprehensive study of the bones.
Also, I doubt the mutation aura is constantly hitting everything, otherwise the beastmen would be unable to exist close to Morghul.
The aura could be a voluntary thing, turned on/off, possibly even with IFF, maybe Beastmen are highly resistant and trees are magic.
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We were close enough for the Ambers to have Beastmen Phrenology times, surely we would've seen chaos spawn bones if we were either close enough to see the growth patterns on individual skulls or close enough to physically pick one up and bring it to them.
 
Guile said:
Here's a thought: Boney has said that the winning vote will happen first, and the second vote will happen if it makes sense to after the first one (paraphrasing, I don't have the post in front of me).

Doesn't it make more sense for the current first and second votes to flip, so Mathilde goes to visit the Kurgan and the group fortifies and runs a few miscellaneous tests afterwards? Rather than spending a day fortifying, and only then going to look for answers on the 'How bad a dude is Morghur' front. It's just a difference of 4 votes, we could flip that easy.
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Unless the roll when visiting the Kurgan goes bad, then we'd probably be thankful for a fortified location. Or if the 'wait' vote gets us the information we want anyways and we have no reason to risk visiting yet another tribe.

And I just think our own observations are more valuable in this situation? All considered there's only so much trust I'd put in whatever the Kvellige said, and that amount of trust is not 'bet Mathilde's life on it'.

(Also I think the statement was more that we'll keep voting to try things until we either leave or are outvoted by the rest of the council, cause there's only so long they're willing to stick around here.)
 
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