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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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deathofrats0808 said:
Except discover we read/possess the book without us telling them. That is in fact a possibility. It's not like we're invincible or that people don't have ways of getting our secrets. And we had the interests of some very powerful people at one point. Hopefully that conspiracy has been totally destroyed, but I don't think that's possible to actually confirm.
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I don't think you realize how legendary Libris Morte is. Anyone suspecting that some rookie Magister from a backwater Imperial province with absolutely no lineage to speak of just so happens to possess the original Libris Morte is going to be laughed out. People are always on the lookout for that book, but they are looking among people who are actually likely to covet and use it - Necromancers, Vampires, so on and so forth. The only way someone can actually bring genuine suspicion on us would be if we:

1. Tell them.
2. Give them the sealed enchanted box that contains the book AND the password required to open it AND tell them the key used doesn't matter, so long as the password is user when said key is being turned, thus preventing them from spending their entire lifetime looking for a specific key that doesn't exist.
3. Get caught red-handed while reading the book by someone who just so happens to know that book and recognizes it on the spot.

Without one of these three things occuring, nobody has any reason to interrogate us about Libris Morte, of all things. We've certainly shown no inclination to learn Necromancy, and in fact have more reasons to hate it than many. There's literally nobody we can trust with Libris Morte, so telling anyone is out of the question. For that same reason, giving it to anyone is also unacceptable. And the third event won't happen, because it'd be contrived and require us to forget that we're a Spymistress, a Grey Magister, a followed of Ranald and need to keep the book secret, even if we've been fired from our post as the former. Why, by all things holy, would we read Libris Fucking Morte in public, where we can get caught by mages who would recognize the book?
 
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Akasha said:
Without one of these three things occuring, nobody has any reason to interrogate us about Libris Morte, of all things. We've certainly shown no inclination to learn Necromancy, and in fact have more reasons to hate it than many. There's literally nobody we can trust with Libris Morte, so telling anyone is out of the question. For that same reason, giving it to anyone is also unacceptable. And the third event won't happen, because it'd be contrived and require us to forget that we're a Spymistress, a Grey Magister and a followed of Ranald, even if we've been fired from our post as the former. Why, by all things holy, would we read Libris Fucking Morte in public, where we can get caught by mages who would recognize the book?
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And seeing as it isn't magically active, we could probably read it in front of a magister and unless they looked over our shoulder and recognised the contents they'd be none the wiser.
 
Akasha said:
I don't think you realize how legendary Libris Morte is. Anyone suspecting that some rookie Magister from a backwater Imperial province with absolutely no lineage to speak of just so happens to possess the original Libris Morte is going to be laughed out. People are always on the lookout for that book, but they are looking among people who are actually likely to covet and use it - Necromancers, Vampires, so on and so forth. The only way someone can actually bring genuine suspicion on us would be if we:

1. Tell them.
2. Give them the sealed enchanted box that contains the book AND the password required to open it AND tell them the key used doesn't matter, so long as the password is open when it is being turned, thus preventing them from spending their entire lifetime looking for a specific key that doesn't exist.
3. Get caught red-handed while reading the book by someone who just so happens to know that book and recognizes it on the spot.

Without one of these three things occuring, nobody has any reason to interrogate us about Libris Morte, of all things. We've certainly shown no inclination to learn Necromancy, and in fact have more reasons to hate it than many. There's literally nobody we can trust with Libris Morte, so telling anyone is out of the question. For that same reason, giving it to anyone is also unacceptable. And the third event won't happen, because it'd be contrived and require us to forget that we're a Spymistress, a Grey Magister, a followed of Ranald and need to keep the book secret, even if we've been fired from our post as the former. Why, by all things holy, would we read Libris Fucking Morte in public, where we can get caught by mages who would recognize the book?
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Well to be fair we did work for a Witch Hunter who was the descendant of the guy who wrote the Libris Morte so there is that. But lets be honest most would think that if he ever found the book he'd have destroyed it or something.
 
NavySeel said:
The box it's in is very secure.
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It's an iron box with a password lock. Nothing that says it can't be cut open, or a skilled enough mage can't crack whatever enchantment keeps it shut.
Akasha said:
I don't think you realize how legendary Libris Morte is. Anyone suspecting that some rookie Magister from a backwater Imperial province with absolutely no lineage to speak of just so happens to possess the original Libris Morte is going to be laughed out. The only way someone can actually bring genuine suspicion on us is if we:

1. Tell them.
2. Give them the sealed enchanted box that contains the book AND the password required to open it AND tell them the key used doesn't matter, so long as the password is open when it is being turned.
3. Get caught red-handed while reading the book by someone who just so happens to know that book and recognizes it on the spot.

Without one of these three things occuring, nobody has any reason to interrogate us about Libris Morte, of all things. We've certainly shown no inclination to learn Necromancy, and in fact have more reasons to hate it than many. There's literally nobody we can trust with Libris Morte, so telling anyone is out of the question. For that same reason, giving it to anyone is also unacceptable. And the third event won't happen, because it'd be contrived and require us to forget that we're a Spymistress, a Grey Magister and a followed of Ranald, even if we've been fired from our post as the former. Why, by all things holy, would we read Libris Fucking Morte in public, where we can get caught by mages who would recognize the book?
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I'm well aware of how legendary it is. Legendary enough that despite having no necromancy training, we recognized it immediately. Probably partially because there's half a dozen variously redacted versions around. And if anyone's suspicious of us, you're right, they aren't going to just accuse us. But they could break in and steal the box, which isn't invulnerable to being stolen, or simply broken into. Or if they've read an unredacted copy, they could ask us questions to see if we have knowledge we shouldn't or if they catch us reacting to probing questions. There are ways of working stuff out other than just "Hey Mathilde, have you read the Liber Mortis?".

And yeah, we've shown no real inclination, but that doesn't mean people won't investigate us. Especially if they find out we aren't great fans of Sigmar. Actually it wouldn't surprise me if either the Grey College or the Witch Hunters do random, secret checks of literally every mage at random points, just in case. It would be a sensible precaution.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
It's an iron box with a password lock. Nothing that says it can't be cut open, or a skilled enough mage can't crack whatever enchantment keeps it shut.

I'm well aware of how legendary it is. Legendary enough that despite having no necromancy training, we recognized it immediately. Probably partially because there's half a dozen variously redacted versions around. And if anyone's suspicious of us, you're right, they aren't going to just accuse us. But they could break in and steal the box, which isn't invulnerable to being stolen, or simply broken into. Or if they've read an unredacted copy, they could ask us questions to see if we have knowledge we shouldn't or if they catch us reacting to probing questions. There are ways of working stuff out other than just "Hey Mathilde, have you read the Liber Mortis?".

And yeah, we've shown no real inclination, but that doesn't mean people won't investigate us. Especially if they find out we aren't great fans of Sigmar. Actually it wouldn't surprise me if either the Grey College or the Witch Hunters do random, secret checks of literally every mage at random points, just in case. It would be a sensible precaution.
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First of all, it's an enchanted box. We don't actually know how durable it is, or if precautions have been put in place. Considering how much Van Hal hated Necromancy, and how much he feared and hated the contents of the book, as well as the fact that he was a veteran Witch Hunter, do you truly think he wouldn't think of someone just hacking the box open? It's almost certain that trying to do so would activate some part of the enchantment that destroys the contents of the box. I would do that, and I have a fraction of the paranoia a veteran Witch Hunter who has kept the Libris Morte hidden for an unknown period of time, despite being a descendant of its author, and thus facing the suspicion of his higher-ups.

Also..
Why, for fuck's sake, would anyone sneak into wherever we live and steal a completely random metal box that nobody knows even has anything inside, much less the legendary Libris Morte, unless we tell them about that?

In addition, you keep ignoring my most crucial point.
Why would anyone do anything you claim they would, such as ask us probing questions about the legendary Libris Morte, if nobody knows we have the legendary Libris Morte? From everyone's perspective, we're something of a rising star, but one that hates Necromancy, has only just become a Magister, has written one acknowledged paper, and was a close friend (and the lover, if you believe the rumours) of a Witch Hunter known for obsessive hatred of all things Undead. Why, again, would they suspect us of having the Libris Morte, and thus investigate us?
 
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Sinsystems said:
I think the biggest problem with that is the fact that while the Fire can be chalked up to an accident, it will inevitably make the Goblins take a closer look at the storehouse and if they discover the sabotage they will know that whatever happened wasn't an accident.
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For one, these are goblins.

Two, the point of subtle sabotage is that it is, well, subtle. The idea is that it fails when you try to fire.

Three, again, goblins.

Four, the fire is the distraction already. They will likely be to on us over it and its results to do anything else, and the army will be soon on its way.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
It's an iron box with a password lock. Nothing that says it can't be cut open, or a skilled enough mage can't crack whatever enchantment keeps it shut.
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"Yes let me steal this random locked metal box as opposed to the many other valuable items this mage has, then I will go to all the trouble of hireing another mage capable of bypassing the enchantments keeping it locked for some reason."

Also if the you go to all the trouble of creating a magical password lock for a box you are going to relly do your best to make it impossible to get into the box without said password.
 
Akasha said:
First of all, it's an enchanted box. We don't actually know how durable it is, or if precautions have been put in place. Considering how much Van Hal hated Necromancy, and how much he feared and hated the contents of the book, as well as the fact that he was a veteran Witch Hunter, do you truly think he wouldn't think of someone just hacking the box open? It's almost certain that trying to do so would activate some part of the enchantment that destroys the contents of the box. I would do that, and I have a fraction of the paranoia a veteran Witch Hunter who has hidden the Libris Morte for an unknown period of time would have.

Also..
Why, for fuck's sake, would anyone sneak into wherever we live and steal a completely random metal box that nobody knows even has anything inside, much less the legendary Libris Morte, unless we tell them about that?
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Because they're a thief and locked metal boxes are valuable? Because some investigating us wants to find what we're hiding? Because they saw the box and got curious as to what was in it?
As for the box is defended, sure maybe. But even if it is, no defence is impenetrable, no enchantment can't be undone, and nothing lasts forever. And whoever had the box enchanted can't have thought of everything. There will be someway to break in, and unless we try, we have no guarantee that just taking a sword to the box wouldn't work. Add to that I doubt Van Hel's worry was someone trying to steal the Liber Mortis in particular, if it had been, why not lock it in a more secure place, or hand it over to one of the Temples or to the Emperor?
 
Exmorri said:
Pretty much that is one of the canonical miracles available to Priests of Ranald: You temporarily "hide" a valuable item or piece of contraband by lending it to Ranald. Nobody searching for the item will be able to find it during the spell's duration. Ranald is rumored to sometimes keep items he really likes. :tongue:
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So your saying my joke is a legit strategy?

Guys we need to become a Ranald priest.
 
Humbaba said:
@BoneyM Does this work?
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Sure.

Alratan said:
Eye of the Beholder: You can change something's appearance to make it look either worthless or valuable for several hours.

Goblins think beer is valuable, I suppose.
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It changes the perceived value of the item, it's not a complete transformation. Cast on fire it could make particularly pretty fire.

primemountain said:
Damn, there goes that idea. Some people have been saying some odd stuff, like we are scouting a peak that the dwarves need to pass by, not the one they (and we) we'll be attacking next. That sounds a bit bonkers. Is that true?
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It is true. The thread selected to enter via the secondary peak instead of the main doors the army will be using.

primemountain said:
It's risky, but probably worth it. Can we make it seem like the avalnche dislodged the torch/torches somehow @BoneyM ?
Like find a torch that allready seems unstable/rusted/rotten handle, and use it/them?
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It will be attempted if that is decided, but CSI: Greenskin is a particularly short and inconsistent show.

primemountain said:
So if you are studying the Liber Mortis in following the duty of 15, to "seek out and counter such destructive and anti-Imperial machinations, practices, peoples, and creatures that are beyond the means of civil authorities and Sigmar's Templars to counter," you are in violation of 7s "No Magister may ever study the Forbidden Lores of the Daemonic Powers, nor the unholy ways of Necromancy, nor any other sorcery or witchcraft that utilises the wicked powers of Dark Magic."

Am I getting that right @BoneyM ?
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The business with the Matrix, wherein you encountered a magical phenomenon formed of Dhar and were able to replicate it with Ulgu without ever having to handle Dhar yourself, is the sort of thing that might raise an eyebrow and cause people to look twice, but even the most sceptical would be forced to concede that it is entirely in alignment with the letter of the law. That you were a member of the College in good standing and presented the Matrix unprompted for the review of your fellows ensured there was no trouble over it. This is pretty much how the Articles, and laws and customs of the Empire in general, work - most of the time there's a fair bit of wriggle room, such as interpreting study to mean actually learning to cast dark magic, rather than knowing anything of it whatsoever. But if you make too many waves or enemies, the rules will be used as a bludgeon against you.

Technically there's a very strong argument to be made that simply reading the Liber Mortis for ideas of what can be done with conventional magic is exactly the same sort of thing as your Matrix, but the reputation of the book completely changes the equation. This isn't a novel cantrip of an unknown necromancer, this is the how-to guide written by the man who made Sylvania synonymous with the restless dead. Learning that there's an original and unredacted copy of the book in existence, let alone in the possession of a wizard, would be likely to panic conservative members of the powers-that-be as well as giving them all the justification they need to err on the side of burning the witch.
 
In order to change the now utterly boring subject of Liber Mortis, what is everyone's thoughts on possible knock on effects of reclaiming Karak Eight Peaks?

One curious thing that comes to mind is that Belegar is at spiritual crossroads. He is wavering between the Old Ways (conservative older Holds' way of things) and the New Ways (technology advancement, etc).

It would be very interesting to see what effects on the rest of the Karaz Ankor would have an accomplished dwarf king (if reclamation is successful), from a prestigous line and a legendary kingdom, with firm belief in the New Ways and technology advancements, because they helped him win back his homeland.

Not to mention, the consequences of large mortal armies being a big help.
 
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deathofrats0808 said:
Because they're a thief and locked metal boxes are valuable? Because some investigating us wants to find what we're hiding? Because they saw the box and got curious as to what was in it?
As for the box is defended, sure maybe. But even if it is, no defence is impenetrable, no enchantment can't be undone, and nothing lasts forever. And whoever had the box enchanted can't have thought of everything. There will be someway to break in, and unless we try, we have no guarantee that just taking a sword to the box wouldn't work. Add to that I doubt Van Hel's worry was someone trying to steal the Liber Mortis in particular, if it had been, why not lock it in a more secure place, or hand it over to one of the Temples or to the Emperor?
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*Groan*

The whole world is not against us. People are not sending spies to us all the time. The people around us are not reading our minds. Thieves don't steal random enchanted iron boxes, because they steal valuable things that are easy to conceal and transport, not heavy, conspicuous magical iron boxes they know nothing about and can't even open, and which might explode at any moment for all they know. In fact, thieves don't try to break into the rooms of Magisters at all, especially if those mages are infamous for being terrifying spymasters, and even more so to steal random metal boxes. People who might wish us harm are not omniscient. If we keep quiet, and don't tell anyone that we've read it, they won't know that we've read it. It's as simple as that.

Edit: Actually, judging by what the QM has just written, us simply having the book is bad enough, so even if we don't read it, if it gets out that we have it, we're screwed. I recommend studying it extensively, burning its contents into our minds, and then burning the book itself.
 
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Horium said:
In order to change the now utterly boring subject of Liber Mortis, what is everyone's thoughts on possible knock on effects of reclaiming Karak Eight Peaks?

One curious thing that comes to mind is that Belegar is at spiritual crossroads. He is wavering between the Old Ways (conservative older Holds' way of things) and the New Ways (technology advancement, etc).

It would be very interesting to see what effects on the rest of the Karaz Ankor would have an accomplished dwarf king (if reclamation is successful), from a prestigous line and a legendary kingdom, who would have firm belief in the New Ways, because they helped him win back his homeland.

Not to mention, the consequences of large mortal armies being a big help.
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That would be interesting. If the City of Pillars is reclaimed, it'll be something of a hopeful sign for the future, and perhaps some of the newer advancements will become more widely accepted as having proved their worth. I doubt it'll much change the Dwarven opinions of either the Empire or humans. The Empire is considered a fairly good ally IIRC, although individuals are judged on their merits. Halflings might get a rise in general opinion though.
 
So I just finished a reread, and @BoneyM Did we ever follow up on that one Sylvanian Lady who was TOTALLY not a vampire during the March on Drakenhoff?

Is she still in power?
 
Guys any sort of debate that hinges on the technicalities of Imperial law regarding wizards is dead in the water, Mathilde held on the the bloody Liber Mortis instead of destroying or handing it over. That is a 'better burn than sorry offense'. Any sort of arguments on whether to read or not should be based on morality or a pragmatic risk assessment because by the laws written and enforced in the empire Mathilde would be dead if her actions to date came out anyway.
 
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