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All the really powerful groups have their secrets and hidden aces and magical devices. So even if we never find out, I'm willing to post that the Ancestor Cult Conclave of the Karaz Ankor has access to information sources and abilities that we could never guess at. Not a direct pipeline to the Ancestor Gods, no, but-

You know how Mathilde has Ranald's Coin, which is an incredibly potent divine artifact with 3 out of 4 abilities that are absolute "yes, this works"? It would not be a shocker if the Ancestor Cult Conclave has access to a few dozen divine artifacts of similar power, at least some of which have information-granting abilities. If they say they have a source of undoubtable repute (so not Ranald then) but then aren't willing to give up the secrets of their information sources, it's not a surprise.

It's along the lines of Algard's teleporting towers of treachery or Mathilde showing up in the middle of the road with barrels of meat. When you're a major player, as I'm sure the Conclave is, sometimes you do stuff and don't tell people how you did it.
 
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Please educate me on what rich lore exists on kurgan beyond "mindless murder machines".
The Steppe nomads we've seen so far seem to have very little to do with the picture wiki painted, and resemble far more the kind of nomadic society one might expect to find in reality, chaos worship, mutations and magic notwithstanding.
This is not just "first sign of difficulty" but "borderline racist caricature", which may be me being uncharitable due to recent argument about the nomads in GoT, so take that with a hint of salt.

The Kurgans are not the most fleshed out people in canon, especially when compared to the other major chaos worshiping group noted, the Norscans who get a far more nuanced shake in the Tome of Corruption, however it's worth noting that we see this through the eyes of imperial scholars. The people who wrote those books likely met a Norascan in Marianburg and talked to them. Kurgans are all Asavar Kul.
 
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I definitely believe that it is honest. It is not the sort of thing a human would call a political fiction, where you say something that is obviously false, everyone knows is false, and that you don't even believe is true, for the sake of providing a veneer of cover to something you've decided to do. But we don't know what reasoning they applied to arrive at this conclusion; the thread has postulated a bunch of things that might have happened, but we won't know until we're told what went down.

The "certain confidential information" might be, as some have hypothesized, a deity (be it Ranald, Gazul, Grombrindal, or other) sending a message of some kind and the dwarves running with it. It might also very reasonably just be "Thorgrim told us that Karak Vlag has been reclaimed and we have decided that this is the best explanation." I suspect it is more likely the latter, but the former is possible, if only because blaming Ranald specifically for the crime of theft of a dwarf soul and putting it in the Dammaz Kron is a very extreme step to take if the only thing you're sure of is "Mathilde has to have a dwarf soul." There are a number of alternate metaphysical explanations that, while unlikely, don't involve Grudging someone on purely circumstantial evidence, which quest canon has determined that dwarves don't like to do; witness how they didn't Grudge Chaos for the disappearance of Karak Vlag, even though circumstantial evidence pointed to it. So I'm pretty sure something turned up to make them blame Ranald specifically.
The thing is, what would be the motivation for a false metaphysical teaching that would trick the dwarves? Who benefits from this? I could see Ranald playing a trick, but that doesn't really benefit him as it could result in Mathilde going to the dwarven afterlife instead of Ranalds. But outside of Ranald, I see no reason someone would do this, except Thorgrim outright lying about what the chair said, and given that he would be trying to screw over Ranald, that doesn't end well for him, as he's not acting in a way the ancestors would approve. And he knows this.

Outside of these two, who would bother doing this falsely? This only leaves the ancestor gods doing it because it is true.
 
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Yea thats why im glad your not the QM. Theres lots of settings details that dont make sense in isolation and need to be rationalised due to the context much of the factions exist due to. You throw them all away at the first sign of difficulty and you dont have a setting.

I mean, I don't hear you complaining about what has been shown the first time we encountered a Kurgan. Besides the setting has been constantly altered by GW itself, why do you balk a throwing out an orientalist caracture in favor of something that's actually interesting? Just wait until you hear my take on the Dark Powers when I put something out.

Besides there is no obligation to include every contradictory detail in what you write in the setting. The mantra is take whatever you like, ignore or toss out whatever you don't. No one decides what can't be done.

Pages 152-155, Tome of Corruption. It goes fairly extensively into their beliefs, their society, their values and why they march on the Old World without fail every time a new Everchosen is crowned.
It's like four pages, and if it's the same stuff I can can read in the wiki page starting at Hierarchy is it, then that's not depth, it's vague with no elaboration on specifics of beliefs social structure. And like I said above, it's all based on a bigoted caricature, something I think we all agree we can do without.
 
As the tag say, "stone is an excellent insulator of magic." Hard to get more stone than an entire moon.

So the magic moon in the sky by itself is real real bad, but when the other moon is out as well it's significantly less bad, because there's a moon full of magic insulator out there messing with those magic rays.
But a normal rock moon isn't more or less there just because it glows more or less. Mannslieb's protection should only matter in a "stone is an excellent insulator" way when ot partially covers or eclipses Morrslieb.
The current Empress and the Emperor-to-be are the result of a Ranald trick. That doesn't mean they're fakes (i.e., she's really is the Empress, and that kid really is the next Emperor).
If Mathilde has a Dwarf soul then "having a Dwarf soul" doesn't actually mean anything tangible. Her behavior is (Ulgu) Human and her mental and supernatural abilities are (Ulgu) Human.
The road is almost always a tribal border, because a tribe being pushed away from being able to raid the merchant caravans will fight so much harder to keep it than they will any other bit of land. So by following the road the steam-wagons will be skirting the edges.
Wouldn't it make sense to go off road and into Dolgan territory as soon as we can?
technology is already widely used and extemely effective, and is commonly known as a 'roof'.
Are solid stone roofs more common among Order Humans then they were IRL during the equivalent tech level?
Approach it from the other side. 'A human saved a Dwarfhold when nobody in the entire Karaz Ankor could'. Put that on top of 'a human did more for Karak Eight Peaks than the High King did' and 'a human translated Queekish when generations of Dwarven scholars couldn't' and you've got an extremely rough message to internalize. Alternate explanations could become very convincing at that point.
It's probably far too early to ask this, but dobwe actually have the option of taking that proclamation seriously, vehemently disagreeing with it and considering the Grudge an affront against our God if not proven, demanding a structured Grudge arbitration in his name and ours?
These seem like their traditional lige stages. Do we know between what ages Dwarven puberty usually happens and what their ability to learn new skills (disregarding cultural needs for perfectionism) is like?
At the age 150, Dwarves join the Elder Council of their Clan, a position they retain for the remainder of their life.
You said Snorri is "good enough at his job that he's expected to become [an Elder] in time, but here it seems like any Dwarf that remains in his Clan (and isn't disqualified for some othet form of gross incompetence I assume) get to be Elders.
This.
I mean, the scouting Knights are not disposable. We haven't even gotten out of the mountains yet, let alone to Karag Dum , and we've lost all our Slayers, and still have a return trip to plan, with or without refugees from Dum. With or without pursuit.

From a cold pragmatic PoV, we should be straining to preserve our meatshields.
Because odds are we will need them rather badly.


This is Warhammer Fantasy, not the Wheel of Time.

Here moonlight does spawn monsters in the woods.
Here the Karaz Ankor is constantly under population strain but the Fire Dwarves seem to be doing just fine.
Here the Elves of Ulthuan have population issues but the Druchii seem able to mass produce Dark Elf mooks at need.

Here the Skaven manage to outspawn everyone, and yet live underground and are afraid of discovery by the Empire.
Here the Empire got wrecked by a magical disease and somehow still survived despite literally fighting a war at the same time.
Here the Brettonians literally never seem to run short of heavy cavalry regardless of losses.

These are the facts of THIS setting, as established in novels and games. I didnt make the rules, I just note them.
Complain to Games-Workshop, because that's what the canon of the setting has been established to be.
BoneyM has already rationalized a lot of nonsensical canon, not just because it makes for better story telling, but because it is outright necessary for a serious quest with meaningful limits and choices. I'm sure that if we were to immerse our character in any of your listed cultures then we'd learn of the exact mechanics of Beastman mutations from Humans and animals, of the Dawi-Zarr demographic advantages (which I think are already obvious by the way), of the source of Ulthuani infertility (or alternatively Druchii fecundity), of the Skaven main food sources (the goo?) and of their more rational than expected fears, of the actual effects of the Black Death and of Mandred Skavenslayer's secret advantages, of the divine blessings enabling better husbandry and faster horse training, and finally of Chaos Marauder respawn rates.
Putting these pieces of information together means that despite their long (by human standards) lifespan, there's surprisingly little generational overlap between dwarves. You have your kids starting at more or less age 70. You oldest child (if they aren't a male who never marries) starts having their child more or less at age 70. Most dwarves die at age 150. Some simple math here suggests that most dwarves know their grandparents for a very short amount of time, and that only if they are the eldest child of an eldest child.

Compare to humans where your grandparents might be alive well into your adult life, and knowing one or more of your great-grandparents for a good chunk of your childhood isn't that uncommon.
And grandparents are really important for the passing on of culture.
This might explain both their steady cultural decline and why they venerate their ancestors to the point of infallibility. They don't actually get to see all of their grandparents fuckups and stupid opinions live.
 
You know how Mathilde has Ranald's Coin, which is an incredibly potent divine artifact with 3 out of 4 abilities that are absolute "yes, this works"? It would not be a shocker if the Ancestor Cult Conclave has access to a few dozen divine artifacts of similar power, at least some of which have information-granting abilities. If they say they have a source of undoubtable repute (so not Ranald then) but then aren't willing to give up the secrets of their information sources, it's not a shocker.
The Ancestor God artifacts absolutely exist, and they absolutely are powerful... ... and are not subtle at all in what they do. As the things they do are stuff like "flash-flood a country", "stop volcanoes erupting" and "make airships possible to make."

To be less tongue-in-cheek, the artifacts are things like the Throne of Power, the Dammaz Kron, and the Thunder Hammer of Grungni or the Axes of Grimnir.

They are very... how to put it... very direct, very Dwarfy, in how they get things done. Very physical or direct; you apply them to a problem like the tool it is, and it helps solve it. I don't think they do metaphysical and mystical or grey areas very well or at all though. And the only way they do at-a-distance stuff, is if they have some way of transmitting the energy or the information across the distance.

If the Elders had access to Gazul's Lamp which identified and guided lost souls or something, presumably they would still need to bring it to, and use it on, Mathilde in order to get any sort of answer.

Even the more 'information-related' things we've seen -- the Throne of Power -- required stuff like "having the gate guards state out loud in the air what the incoming party is", needing a control object to come in range to synchronize. The Karak Vlag/Karag Dum flow however may be noticed immediately, due to differences inherent in things. Karak Eight Peaks was out for millenia, and its mountain-waystones were not all fully functioning correctly. Karag Dum's energy flow "merely" was pent up in a dam at Karak Vlag; once Vlag was returned, it's possible the flow was restored to the south too.
First, the priests of Gazul probably have a way of sensing souls. Recall that the Gunners was brought in to check the integrity of our soul. Now he did cheat out of it with common sense of pointing to our moving shadow, but the priests of Gazul are in charge of protecting all the Dawi souls, not just the dead. So they probably have some way to sense it.
Yes, but...

Their "ways of checking for possession" might just be "Daemon-check them with a crystal ball of Hysh"-equivalent. Such as perhaps "literally poke them with an axe of Daemonslaying, and see if she starts writhing and screaming in tongues."

But, well -- they would have had to haul Mathilde off to Karaz-a-Karak and personally check on her. To check for possession. If they had to do that in person, how could they -- without her being there in person -- determine if she has a Dawi soul?

No, this sounds like they didn't do any magical checking. It sounds like what they did do, is debate.

They were given information from "an undoubtable source." This source told them Ranald stole a Dawi soul.

The Elders then proceeded to go 'Wtf?' a lot, and then debate what the hell to do with this.

They then finally eventually decided: 'Well uh okay... grudge Ranald for it, I guess? But write-in exceptions/potential for ameliorating it in whole or in part, due to services rendered.'


I don't think the Elders of the Conclave had any magic or supernatural abilities on their side at all.

I think they were just forced to deal with a sudden burst of huge news, and needed to adjudicate a thing.

Maybe they were the ones that came up with the 'What if... what if she's a Dawi soul in a body?' theory. Maybe they were told that by the "undoubtable source" and merely had to scramble and react to that. Not sure.
 
It's probably far too early to ask this, but dobwe actually have the option of taking that proclamation seriously, vehemently disagreeing with it and considering the Grudge an affront against our God if not proven, demanding a structured Grudge arbitration in his name and ours?
I would actually like to see a vote on it. (even knowing the likely winner would be 'roll with it/think positively of it)

like, being personally/religiously offended is a reasonable response. if not the politically smart one.
 
Personally, I think the Chaos Dwarfs make more sense than Dark Elves or Skaven.

They're specifically stated to have a small population, they lack most of the backstabbing other evil factions are known for, they stay behind an army of chaff in battle, and they make sure their reach doesn't exceed their grasp- compared to the Dark Elves constantly raiding half the world and invading Ulthuan, the Chorfs have exactly one major expedition outside of the Dark Lands on record.
 
I would actually like to see a vote on it. (even knowing the likely winner would be 'roll with it/think positively of it)

like, being personally/religiously offended is a reasonable response. if not the politically smart one.
Personally I don't like the idea of Mathilde actually believing this humbug without proof or reservations and I also don't like her lying to all her Dwarf friends that she does believe it if she actually doesn't.
 
Pages 152-155, Tome of Corruption. It goes fairly extensively into their beliefs, their society, their values and why they march on the Old World without fail every time a new Everchosen is crowned.
Fuckhugemegalarge raiding party marches through your lands.
Do you:
A: Attack them
B: Join them
There does not need to be much of a explanation for the Kurgan to join chaos armies marching south.
It is what they are already doing with trade caravans, except more so.
 
On the other hand you could make the argument that being politically savvy (or at least pragmatic) is part of Mathilde's religion.
True enough, but remember that Mathilde is very devout and that her relationship with Ranald is personal, a friendship. I know I'd certainly be offended on behalf of my friend if they were besmirched.
 
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You said Snorri is "good enough at his job that he's expected to become [an Elder] in time, but here it seems like any Dwarf that remains in his Clan (and isn't disqualified for some othet form of gross incompetence I assume) get to be Elders.

Snorri being a Ranger and all, "good at his job" and "survive long enough to become an Elder" are actually much more closely linked than they are for more sedentary professions. ;)
 
I mean, I don't hear you complaining about what has been shown the first time we encountered a Kurgan. Besides the setting has been constantly altered by GW itself, why do you balk a throwing out an orientalist caracture in favor of something that's actually interesting? Just wait until you hear my take on the Dark Powers when I put something out.

Besides there is no obligation to include every contradictory detail in what you write in the setting. The mantra is take whatever you like, ignore or toss out whatever you don't. No one decides what can't be done.

Maybe I'm not explaining my self well, obvious caricatures are not good or even engaging but from a setting perspective with quests that use them it's much more satisfying to read something which builds on top of what already exists and fills in gaps (Hell it can even jam a crowbar into the gap and widen it, to change details) to add new details and to rationalise otherwise contradictory things rather than to rip and replace entirely. The former makes the setting more rich but still identifiable, the latter if done to often means you don't actually have a setting at all.
 
Who knew that golden age Dawi had such fragile constitutions that a little shocking disappointment could kill them.
Modern Dawi laugh grumble off far greater misery every day. Kragg has watched the Karaz Ankor slowly crumble for a thousand years and it has only made him harder to kill.
you know, I could believe the "DIES" reaction.

For a golden age runelord, it would be a massive fall and then hit rock bottom.
While with someone born in the silver age, every blow that doesn't kill them would double as training.
 
And the material written about the Kurgan is written, IC, by the scholars of the Empire. Of course it's biased. That doesn't mean it's completely false though.
 
If Ranald is not guilty of what he is accused of, he is probably now busy fabricating evidence to show that he is.
He will deny everything, ofcourse, but in a way that leaves everyone convinced of his guilt without being able to prove it.
And he's probably totally thinking about how "that's a good idea. I should do that."
 
They were given information from "an undoubtable source." This source told them Ranald stole a Dawi soul.
Nah. They got source from "an undoubtable source" about something. Most likely, it was that a Great Hold thought lost since The War Against Chaos is back. By Mathilde.

It was done by someone without personal gain (ie. The Coin of Protector). Ergo, a great debt is accrued. This is followed by couple of steps of "Tradition is Good" (coz everything else is lost)... Tradition, debt.... Hmmm, it must've been a dwarf!
 
If Ranald is not guilty of what he is accused of, he is probably now busy fabricating evidence to show that he is.
He will deny everything, ofcourse, but in a way that leaves everyone convinced of his guilt without being able to prove it.

RANALD: Mathilde, I don't issue commandments often- but you are forbidden to deny this. This is the sort of cred that boosts my Night Prowler aspect.
 
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