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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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soulcake said:
SENSIBLE.

A JOURNEYING OF TWO DECADES? I CAN BARELY REACH THE TAVERN BATHROOM IN SO SHORT A TIME.

HURK. Barely ready to leave the house unsupervised! ONLY A MADMAN OF A MASTER WOULD CONSIDER SUCH A THING ACCEPTABLE.

THE ONLY THING THEY'VE PEAKED AT IS THE DINNER THEIR MOTHER'S MADE FOR THE EVENING. BY GRUNGNI, I CAN FEEL MY STOMACH DROP AND MY JAW SLACKEN.

WOE IS THE KARAZ ANKOR WHEN CHILDREN ARE FORCED TO LEAD THE CLANS. I REQUIRE A DRINK.

YET MORE, STRONGER, DRINK IS REQUIRED.

DIES
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*Takes notes for the omake that will probably never make it out of my head.*

Snorri, presented with the modern Karak Ankor: Babies! Babies leading babies! Aaaaaaaargh!
 
Horium said:
So they say, but has anyone tried? :V
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Norscans will frequently worship a grab bag mix of The Chaos Gods, Openly and Random Guises Of The Chaos Gods That They Understand As Nature Spirits Instead (and an occasional dose of actual nature spirits, proscribed gods, as well as actual order gods) so honestly I'm pretty sure the each of the chaos gods have been slotted into every conceivable role.
 
Personally, from what little i read about kurgans in the warhammer wiki, i feel it is better to just chuck away pretty much everything written about them and just redo a regular horse nomad culture that happens to live near chaos wastes. instead of trying to rationalize how the, society, described there would ever function longer than a single week before ripping itself apart.
 
thamuzz said:
*Watches intently in case @soulcake responds, because Snorri's reaction to Kragg and Thorek are something I'm having trouble figuring out*
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I figure Snorri would be kind of disappointed but not really very surprised about Kragg. Somewhat approving of Thorek, but also a bit disappointed. They do fine as actual runelords, but one doesn't take any apprentices, and the other has so many he can't properly teach them.
 
Valmond said:
Personally, from what little i read about kurgans in the warhammer wiki, i feel it is better to just chuck away pretty much everything written about them and just redo a regular horse nomad culture that happens to live near chaos wastes. instead of trying to rationalize how the, society, described there would ever function longer than a single week before ripping itself apart.
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Yea thats why im glad your not the QM. Theres lots of settings details that dont make sense in isolation and need to be rationalised due to the context much of the factions exist due to. You throw them all away at the first sign of difficulty and you dont have a setting.
 
Well, there's probably a group of surgeons who worship Khorne (admittedly, they are unlikely to be good surgeons...)

It wouldn't be out of the question for them to spread that faith to others in the medical profession (because obviously warhammer needs a cult of murder-doctors).

Make that a tradition for a few generations, and Khorne could begin co-opt "medicine" into his domain, and from there start to muscle in on midwifery.

Actually, now that I think about it, Warhammer Sweeney Todd has to be a thing, right?
 
Execute/Dumbo said:
How do they know what Mathilde's soul is

Like, am I going crazy? You mean the group who's never seen Mathilde in person, the people who, as far as we know, can't see souls like that? That group? They're the ones who can't be lying about the thing they have physically no way of telling is true? And this happened after and unrelated to the first time Mathilde used the Eye and exposed herself to Gazul, which was the only possible time that information could have come out? It's not 'lying' if all they have to go off is what we've done, because they can't go off anything else!
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First, the priests of Gazul probably have a way of sensing souls. Recall that the Gunners was brought in to check the integrity of our soul. Now he did cheat out of it with common sense of pointing to our moving shadow, but the priests of Gazul are in charge of protecting all the Dawi souls, not just the dead. So they probably have some way to sense it.

Second, the ancestor gods that were undoubtedly struggling to find a way to save that many dwarves from chaos probably noticed this, Coin or no Coin, then might have looked at us, and communicated that knowledge to a priest. If we read the statement, that's what it sounds like.

But also, let's look at the other possibility. That a group of the oldest and most traditional dwarves around decided to lie or state something without clear evidence. Belegar, who is considered exceptionally deceitful for his species, could barely stomach asking us to forget we got a message. Dwarves are not humans. They don't lie to cover up their shame. At worst, they refuse to talk about it. My bet is that this is real.
 
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Abhorsen said:
But also, let's look at the other possibility. That a group of the oldest and most traditional dwarves around decided to lie or state something without clear evidence. Belegar, who is considered exceptionally deceitful for his species, could barely stomach asking us to forget we got a message. Dwarves are not humans. They don't lie to cover up their shame. At worst, they refuse to talk about it. My bet is that this is real.
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The trick to lie as a dwarf is to take something subjective enough that not even you can really prove whether it is true or false, and then convince yourself the option you know is the less likely is actually correct. That way you are pointedly not lying even as you affirm something that is most likely incorrect, because you possibly could be right, and you've convinced yourself of it. See the whole Karag Dum scandal.

Belegar couldn't do that because he read the High King's response, and Dwarves lie through uncertainty.
 
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Abhorsen said:
First, the priests of Gazul probably have a way of sensing souls. Recall that the Gunners was brought in to check the integrity of our soul. Now he did cheat out of it with common sense of pointing to our moving shadow, but the priests of Gazul are in harder of protecting all the Dawi souls, not just the dead. So they probably have some way to sense it.

Second, theancestor gods that were undoubtedly struggling to find a way to save that many dwarves from chaos probably noticed this, Coin or no Coin, then might have looked at us, and communicated that knowledge to a priest. If we read the statement, that's what it sounds like.

But also, let's look at the other possibility. That a group of the oldest and most traditional dwarves around decided to lie or state something without clear evidence. Belegar, who is considered exceptionally deceitful for his species, could barely stomach asking us to forget we got a message. Dwarves are not humans. They don't lie to cover up their shame. At worst, they refuse to talk about it. My bet is that this is real.
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I definitely believe that it is honest. It is not the sort of thing a human would call a political fiction, where you say something that is obviously false, everyone knows is false, and that you don't even believe is true, for the sake of providing a veneer of cover to something you've decided to do. But we don't know what reasoning they applied to arrive at this conclusion; the thread has postulated a bunch of things that might have happened, but we won't know until we're told what went down.
BoneyM said:
An announcement from the Emergency Meeting of the Ancestor Cult Conclave of the Karaz Ankor, hosted in Karaz-a-Karak.

After certain confidential information was vouchsafed to this body by a source of undoubtable repute, a Grudge is hereby leveled against the being, spirit, force, ancestor, demiurge, and/or anthropomorphic personification commonly known as Ranald, believed to originate somewhere in our about the continent called The Old World, for the crime of theft of a disembodied Dwarven soul, which has subsequently been incarnated in the form of an Umgi.

Reparation or vengeance for said Grudge is to be postponed pending the full and proper evaluation of the consequences of those actions, which may be considered to mitigate, in whole or in part, those actions.

Witnessed and entered into the Book of Grudges by the High King.
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The "certain confidential information" might be, as some have hypothesized, a deity (be it Ranald, Gazul, Grombrindal, or other) sending a message of some kind and the dwarves running with it. It might also very reasonably just be "Thorgrim told us that Karak Vlag has been reclaimed and we have decided that this is the best explanation." I suspect it is more likely the latter, but the former is possible, if only because blaming Ranald specifically for the crime of theft of a dwarf soul and putting it in the Dammaz Kron is a very extreme step to take if the only thing you're sure of is "Mathilde has to have a dwarf soul." There are a number of alternate metaphysical explanations that, while unlikely, don't involve Grudging someone on purely circumstantial evidence, which quest canon has determined that dwarves don't like to do; witness how they didn't Grudge Chaos for the disappearance of Karak Vlag, even though circumstantial evidence pointed to it. So I'm pretty sure something turned up to make them blame Ranald specifically.
 
Execute/Dumbo said:
The problem isn't that they believe her to be Dawi and thus legally she is, that's clear, I was arguing against the idea that Mathilde actually literally has a dwarven soul, since Silent was responding to Jyn, who commented that she didn't actually have a dwarf soul after people seemed to be assuming that Mathilde actually had one. It's not about debating legalities, it's about debating if Ranald actually literally stole a floating Dwarfs soul (?) to put into a human (??) who then ended up worshipping him, either so he did it retroactively or things just lined up that way (???).
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The term Jyn used was "Ranald trick or political fiction." My objection was to the implication that Ranald tricks or political fictions are not real. Because just as the roles of 'Empress' or 'King' are social constructs, and laws and authority work because people agree to be bound by them, a Grudge is a social or legal construct, so the context at hand ought to be a social/legal one. Beyond that, I think we are largely agreed, or at least not holding incompatible viewpoints, because it's pretty much impossible to verify anything at the literal or metaphysical-soul-warp-entity level, and my inclination was to ignore that context.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
Yea thats why im glad your not the QM. Theres lots of settings details that dont make sense in isolation and need to be rationalised due to the context much of the factions exist due to. You throw them all away at the first sign of difficulty and you dont have a setting.
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Please educate me on what rich lore exists on kurgan beyond "mindless murder machines".
The Steppe nomads we've seen so far seem to have very little to do with the picture wiki painted, and resemble far more the kind of nomadic society one might expect to find in reality, chaos worship, mutations and magic notwithstanding.
This is not just "first sign of difficulty" but "borderline racist caricature", which may be me being uncharitable due to recent argument about the nomads in GoT, so take that with a hint of salt.
 
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