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Giving the runesmiths AV gives us dwarf favour in general but it's favour from the Rune smiths. That's why AV lets us bypass a lot of their reticence, Spending dwarf favour for the colleges wouldnt have got us the calamity rooms, spending AV did, because with AV it's explicitly the Runesmiths that owe us, not just dwarves as a whole. Now we can cash that favour out else where because Mathilde is good at using influence and the dwarves take debt seriously.
Was that explicitly stated?
It might have, but i can't remember.
In general, dwarf favour is fungible among dwarves, we got our belt not by doing huge favours to runesmihs, but to dwarves in general, so it's not like we can't get runestuff, even very special runestuff, with generic favour.

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That said, i'm still uncomfortable trying to bribe runesmiths into the wastes with AV.
 
Was that explicitly stated?
It might have, but i can't remember.
In general, dwarf favour is fungible among dwarves, we got our belt not by doing huge favours to runesmihs, but to dwarves in general, so it's not like we can't get runestuff, even very special runestuff, with generic favour.

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That said, i'm still uncomfortable trying to bribe runesmiths into the wastes with AV.

Yes I believe it was, but I'm not going to be able to find it. There's a number of other things that were suggested we could get if we sell AV for favour because of just how big a deal it is. Rune lords can't use their wrath and ruin runes particularly often. Every gallon of AV we give the Runesmiths is a battle they pretty much will absolutely win, that means loads of lives saved.

It's arguable that the 3 favour we get a gallon is underselling it's true value but the fact that it opens doors with the Runesmiths more than makes up for it.
 
Not quite that clear cut.
Spending 6 favor hires one for a job.
Not necessarily risking their lives for said job.
Hmm. I have to admit that hiring someone for a civilian job and hiring the same person to something risky like a military expedition should not cost the same. Especially since jobs arw usually "do a specific thing" or "teach me something". I guess if we hire A Runesmith for the expedition on normal Runesmith hiring terms it would be only fair if they literally sit in a Steam Wagon tinkering on their own project whenever their specific expertise isn't directly requested by Mathilde.

Hiring with favour is basicly us trading aid to dwarves in general, to a service by one dwarf in specific.

In theory that dorf in question could probably say no, but someone has to do it.

So by handing AV for a runesmith we are kinda making a large donation to dwarves in general, and turning around and making one dwarf to pay for it.

I'm happy to do it for stuff like the magic rooms, or help with towers, but asking someone to walk into the wastes to pay of a racial debt feels wrong.

Are you sure that's how it works? Because it sounds wrong to me. Like that would mean that if we return the fortunes of one specific Dwarf from an abandoned Karak, then travel to the other side of the Karaz Ankor and ask for, say, someone to oversee some construction for months in some Imperial mudhole, then some poor shmuck would be pressured into volunteering for that while the guy who is now rich again can just not bother repaying his debt?

No. I'm pretty sure that the Karaks that benefited from our actions will be paying for specific jobs from a common fund and that specific Dwarves that we aided will in turn be expected to repay those that settle their debts on their behalf.

The only thing that makes Dwarf favor to outsiders different from favor trades within their own community is the mix of racial honor, cultural secrecy and complicated politics that makes Dwarves want to seem like one monolithic entity from the outside while repaying their debts to non-Dwarves as swiftly as possible.

@BoneyM, care to weigh in? What does it actually mean in practice when Mathilde tries to spend Dwarf Favor to hire an expert she never met for an unfun job? How does the expert get selected and informed and what kind of compensation can he hope for?
Also, how does Dwarf Favor held by outsiders differ from just general favors held between Karaz Ankor Dwarves? Do both just get traded like currency or is it more complicated?
Lastly, how much concerning DF is game mechanics that you made fluff canon and how much is an abstraction for convenience that shouldn't be considered to be reflected in the lore or Mathilde's IC experience? Dwarves being what they are, I've been treating it as a literal number in a literal ledger somewhere.
 
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@BoneyM, care to weigh in? What does it actually mean in practice when Mathilde tries to spend Dwarf Favor to hire an expert she never met for an unfun job? How does the expert get selected and informed and what kind of compensation can he hope for?
Also, how does Dwarf Favor held by outsiders differ from just general favors held between Karaz Ankor Dwarves? Do both just get traded like currency or is it more complicated?
Lastly, how much concerning DF is game mechanics that you made fluff canon and how much is an abstraction for convenience that shouldn't be considered to be reflected in the lore or Mathilde's IC experience?

We've gone way beyond poking the abstraction and are currently vivisecting it.
 
Are you sure that's how it works? Because it sounds wrong to me. Like that would mean that if we return the fortunes of one specific Dwarf from an abandoned Karak, then travel to the other side of the Karaz Ankor and ask for, say, someone to oversee some construction for months in some Imperial mudhole, then some poor shmuck would be pressured into volunteering for that while the guy who is now rich again can just not bother repaying his debt?
We don't get dwarf favour for saving a random dwarf, we get dwarf favour for saving an important dwarf.
We get favour for things that aid, or otherwise matter to, dwarves as a group, it might be saving important people, it might be settling grudges, it might be liberating a karak.

Just like we got our belt.
Mathilde did some major stuff that dwarves as a group thought important, then she used that favour earned to get the best runemaster alive to make her a belt that would be a treasured relic for a dwarf king, or the emperor.
Same way we can write ton of papers, and then because colleges like people writing papers, we can get someone to make us a bottle of dragon breath.
 
We've gone way beyond poking the abstraction and are currently vivisecting it.
I hear you.

It's just that with all this talk I literally lost track of what is abstraction and what is happening on the ground.

With College Favor I think I have a handle on it. There it is treated as a currency of sorts, but hard numbers are not actually involved. Essentially it is the same kind of horse trading that media likes to portray politicians practicing, except officially sanctioned and not frowned upon. A lot of "I know a guy who knows a guy" is involved. As is sweet talking and polite reminders. Favor from the College(s) as a whole (for papers and such) is just Mathilde asking a superior for something nice and both her and the superior knowing where she stands. Mixed expenditures of personal and College wide favor boil down to letters promising good will from multiple sources coalescing in the hands of one guy.

But when it comes to Dwarf Favor, something given by literal and straight forward Dwarves, but only to outsiders that have done something for Dwarfkind, I feel like I have a much weaker footing when trying to model what is actually happening in your world.

And since the current discussion revolves specifically around the morality of spending DF to ask/hire/conscript some guy for good/fair/marginal/no compensation, it kind of became relevant beyond my mere musings on Dwarf culture.
 
Dwarves have the book of grudges, that's a honor debt owed to the dwarves, and treated very seriously.
Think of dwarf favour as honor debt owed by the dwarves to someone else.
And while that is less formalized, it is still treated very seriously.

Remember the boon we got from Belegar? The man would break himself, his clan, his Karak, the whole Karaz Ankor if it game down to it, to repay the debt he feels he owes us.
Dwarf favour is not that serious (atleast unless we manage to rack it up to millions somehow, which i doubt is possible), but it can make a dwarf walk into the chaos wastes even if they'd rather not.
 
It's arguable that the 3 favour we get a gallon is underselling it's true value but the fact that it opens doors with the Runesmiths more than makes up for it.

Only if we do things like learning Arcane Khazalid that it uniquely unlocks.

We also don't know the opportunity cost of AV yet, particularly of large amounts of AV. If there are game changing things we could do, say, with twenty or thirty units of it; we're going to bitterly regret frittering it away.

Didn't wizards already fight in the Great War against Chaos?

Only the later parts of it, probably after Karak Dum was probably cut off.
 
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I think AV price is fine, we don't want to inflation to set in, being able to just earn favour by selling AV is kinda pushing it as is.
 
I'll be honest, I feel like we tried 'recruit runesmiths' already last turn and got some help out of it, I'm not sure that I really want to try and do the action again in hope of better results. It seems like we have more rewarding options.

I agree as far as spending AP on gathering dwarf reinforcements is concerned.

But I will be voting on outright purchasing aid from a dwarf runesmith for Karak Dum.

I consider it that important, and Thorek seriously considered helping of his own violition for free, before deciding to repeat the old dwarf staple of "when in doubt, turtle."

Too bad that Mathilde has shown that's turtling is not always the right answer.
 
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But when it comes to Dwarf Favor, something given by literal and straight forward Dwarves, but only to outsiders that have done something for Dwarfkind, I feel like I have a much weaker footing when trying to model what is actually happening in your world.

If a person has aided the Karaz Ankor, the Karaz Ankor has an obligation to replay that person somehow. Once that person voices a way to settle the score, that information gets passed on to whoever would be in a position to do the settling. It's not an explicit obligation, but it is what honour demands, so even though that individual is free to say no it's one notch down from if they had the means to settle a Grudge and chose not to.
 
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By the time they see it clearly its already too late to do anything other than try a suicidal assault or watch us pass.

...assuming we travel with full banners spread and taunting. Which theres no reason to.

What they would see is wolf riders traveling at speed alongside a monstrous contraption with various magics hanging around.

The point I was making was not about them reneging on the deal but them telling other tribes about us after they realize what we are because them not talking to others about us is not part of the deal we would make. A Chaos Champion would see the force we are bringing as both a worth target and weaklings daring to tread on land controlled by the "True Gods". The Kul for example would be quiet willing I suspect to attack us after we finish at Krag Dum or even before depending on what is keeping the Dwarfs that still might be alive besieged.

You're assuming that Horstmann is actually a traitor using meta knowledge here. He might not be. Van Horstmann could actually very much be like us, someone who's read forbidden knowledge and is using it extract insight and turn it against the enemy.

Like us, he might not yet have crossed the line.

I was just making a joking reply to the resident of the thread who likes to pretend he is The Great Green Bag of Pus. I agree that with our QM deciding to do his own thing with the character that we will need more information to come to conclusions. Still keeping a eye on him is only smart in my eyes.

I'll be honest, I feel like we tried 'recruit runesmiths' already last turn and got some help out of it, I'm not sure that I really want to try and do the action again in hope of better results. It seems like we have more rewarding options.

The thing is we only asked the Runesmiths of Karak Azul if any of them would come all the way and they said no. We have not put out the call to the wider Karaz Ankor and I think there is a good chance that at least one Runesmith would be willing to come on this rescue mission to help dwarfs with out favor being involved.
Karak Azul had almost no contact with the wider Karaz Ankor until Eight Peaks was retaken. Nobody there is going to be a great resource for headhunting outside of it.

So would it be possible to send out a general call for the assistance of a Runesmith to the entire Karaz Ankor and have a chance of one saying they will come. Also we have talked to Thorek about the situation but he was not present when the debates happened so could we talk to Krag and ask him for his opinion and help on the matter because he is likely to know more then Thorek and know more Runesmiths in the wider Dawi World. I want to try and find a dwarf who is willing to come on their own terms so to speak.

'Non-Chaos human Wizards' shouldn't be the biggest shock, the Ice Witches and Damsels predate the Colleges by quite a bit.

Male Wizards might be more surprising to them.

Right, but there's the question of if the Dwarfs of Karag Dum would have been aware of that.

Except the Empire as a whole predates Bretonnia and they knew almost nothing about it so I doubt they would know much about the secretive group that is the Lady's Damsels. The Ice Witch's of Kislev I will agree on them having some knowledge about though as they are close and the Kurgan would talk about them. Considering they were cut off before and during the conflict I doubt they have first hand Knowledge of Imperial Wizards that fought in the war.


Ok, but I'm just not seeing how "Sigmar is an asshole" applies here tbh.

I would say it's more "He can't be everywhere he is need even though he wants to be" but I agree about not seeing how that would apply to the possible loss of the Journeymen and Women we have been watching over.
 
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So would it be possible to send out a general call for the assistance of a Runesmith to the entire Karaz Ankor and have a chance of one saying they will come. Also we have talked to Thoreau about the situation but he was not present when the debates happen so could we talk to Krag and ask him for his opinion and help on the matter because he is like to know more then Thorek and know more Runesmiths in the wider Dawi World. I want to try and find a dwarf who is willing to come on their own terms so to speak.

As Thorek explained, the Runesmiths of the wider Karaz Ankor want nothing to do with the situation.
 
I would say it's more "He can't be everywhere he is need even though he wants to be" but I agree about not seeing how that would apply to the possible loss of the Journeymen and Women we have been watching over.
I was making an "Omegahugger is referring to necromancy and I'm pretending to not get it" joke
 
Can I just, as a side note, say how much it bugs me that this setting leans so hard into the scantily clad female-only magic users trope? Three factions, at least- dark elves, brettonians, and the ice witches, and I'm pretty sure that the factions in the opposite situation are *entirely* male... (Green skins and skaven, not sure about lizards.)

At least they ditch the gender essentialism by making it clear that all three are *political* decisions of the rulers, but still.

Noticed mostly when I actually started looking mini models...
 
I got that but what I mean is would Krag for example have more knowledge about the situation as Thorek was not present when the incidents happened and thus is providing second hand information.
Thorek and Kragg aren't best of friends, although Thorek may actually be in Kragg's top five, but given the investment we made in getting the information I'm decently sure that Thorek would have given Kragg a nod of "I'm off to ask some people about this thing" and Kragg responded "grumble grumble grumble, keep your politics away from me, grumble"
 
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