Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I really like the idea of spending multiple AP each on BM development and Miasma learning while we have Melkoth hired. Super efficient.
Me too. Like, everything else Mathilde can do pretty well already, though every little bit helps. Battlemagic though? That's a whole new level and builds on our unexpected success with the staff. Also, you know, the killiest Battlemagic suggested was mine, so I have a bit of a personal investment in seeing that to fruition. Also if we have Melkoth, might as well use him.
 
Yeah, it's a very creative idea that maximizes efficiency of our boost. If the QM rules it permissible and that we won't lose AP if we finish "early," I will definitely advocate for it next turn.
When we tried to convince Panoramia to let us use the Eye of Gazul to weed her Garden we did get to select a different action when she ran away screaming. I don't see why that wouldn't be the case here.

Or just add in a conditional:
-[x] If completed in one action instead get help on X
After the second AP of Melkoths Miasma learning.
 
Wait, you guys want Melkoth's help inventing battle magic? Are you sure you can get that without paying more CF?
 
Wait, you guys want Melkoth's help inventing battle magic? Are you sure you can get that without paying more CF?
I mean we can.
If you got two things going on in that period that's inside their wheelhouse they can contribute to both, but make sure they're things pretty close to each other. Most Wizards specialize, there's few that could equally contribute to, say, an Enchanting project and a Ritual project.
He just might not be as huge a help as he will be with his Miasma.
 
If we are going to get a battle magic attack spell it should be in a ring, not a gun anyway. We need more rings to complete our Sauron impression. It's not like he only forged one, so there are plenty of choices other than invisibility.
 
Wait, you guys want Melkoth's help inventing battle magic? Are you sure you can get that without paying more CF?
Yep, confirmed by the QM.
I had the idea (suggested also by Garlak) of putting say both a MMM study action, and a Fog of War spell creation action in the same turn and getting Melkoth's help with both.

Does "assist with a specific project" trump "10 per six months" here? I.e. 10CF to teach, and another 10CF to work on spell creation?
If you got two things going on in that period that's inside their wheelhouse they can contribute to both, but make sure they're things pretty close to each other. Most Wizards specialize, there's few that could equally contribute to, say, an Enchanting project and a Ritual project.
Every extra AP you spend reduces the chance that we'll do the Urbaz coins. The small chance of successfully inventing Battle Magic is not worth it.
I'm fine with it if it's "just" a FC spell, and Boney confirmed that the scope of the spell is determined during the creation process:
Would the Fog Path be Battle Magic or something less complex?
Depends how developing it goes.
So far in this quest we've invented two spells (well, MMM isn't really a spell, it's a means of casting other spells) and it's gone pretty well. I'm willing to take a stab at this, especially since we're at Magic 9, have a bullshit staff, a bullshit Tower, potentially bullshit tutelage, and it would be so useful to have on campaign.
 
So far in this quest we've invented two spells (well, MMM isn't really a spell, it's a means of casting other spells) and it's gone pretty well. I'm willing to take a stab at this, especially since we're at Magic 9, have a bullshit staff, a bullshit Tower, potentially bullshit tutelage, and it would be so useful to have on campaign.
Also, you know, we're doing Battlemagic with a Battlemagic tutor anyways, so it will probably influence things in that direction.
 
I still think that we should invent Mathilde's Really Really Unfriendly Mist:
Mathilde's Really Really Unfriendly Mist: Creates a literally choking fog via mass Throttling.
It'd probably be more up Melkoth's alley if only because it's more direct-damage-y, it'd be more useful after the expedition is over, I think that it'd have at least a bit more synergy with our traits and masteries, and I think that it provides more utility to the expedition overall.

I'm not too fussed over the details, though. Spending like four AP at once on "learn and develop BM with Melkoth's support" is a great idea and I support it wholeheartedly.
 
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I still think that we should invent Mathilde's Really Really Unfriendly Mist:
It'd probably be more up Melkoth's alley if only because it's more direct-damage-y, it'd be more useful after the expedition is over, I think that it'd have at least a bit more synergy with our traits and masteries, and I think that it provides more utility to the expedition overall.

I'm not too fussed over the details, though. Spending like four AP at once on "learn and develop BM" is a great idea and I support it wholeheartedly.
I mean, it's sort of weird and over the top, in a way that Mathilde's (merely) Unfriendly Mist isn't.

Burning Shadows with a medium of fog instead of shadows seems like a one-dimensional flip, but filling a fog bank full of arms to just - H A N D - people is kind of out of left field, if that makes sense?

If Boney says they'd be fine with it I wouldn't mind it, but the idea feels more like the continuation of that joke chain they're quoting rather than them stating a preference.
 
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Melkoth's Mystifying Mentoring Methods, Part 2
He's the Grey College's Head of Battle Magic. It's all in his purview, more or less, though probably it'll be more pronounced the more foggy our concept is, which works in our favor just fine.
It is his purview yes, but I'm afraid it might end up being Melkoth's Mystifying Mentoring Methods pt.2



Except Mathilde is pretty good, so it might go like this:

 
AlsoI want a gun that enchant's its bullets with Okkam's Mind-Razor.
This has been explicitly disallowed on a number of different levels. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

No, this would be an enchantment that makes other enchantments as the pistol needs to impart the enchantment to the bullet. And a bullet is much too small to contain that much magic. You could do it to a cannonball.
Battlemagic spells are too much magic to fit in bullets, and enchantments that make other enchantments need daemons.

2. Is enchanting a gun with Okkam's Mindrazor so its bullets shoot with the wielder's Leadership possible? If it is, would the wielder be able to teleport after every shot?
1. Double. Would be very bright.
2. No and no.
Spells which involve something relating to will (with Okkam's Mindrazor being used as the example) are crappy for enchantments, because they use whatever level of will the enchantment rather than a wizard can muster (which is much less and therefore lowers the effectiveness of the enchantment drastically).

An enchanted gun can't put a spell on a bullet that will activate when it hits, but it can change the properties of the bullets as they are fired.
Delayed/conditional effects in general are impossible - which means that most of the immaterial or conceptual spell effects can't be utilized. Yes, this covers Okkam's Mindrazor.
 
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The whole discussion on magic guns and crossbows seems like a solution in search of a problem, rather than a response to a problem we actually have. I'm against spending favor on a speculative investment when we might need that favor for something else, like enhancing our boon, or researching the waystone network.
 
He's the Grey College's Head of Battle Magic. It's all in his purview, more or less, though probably it'll be more pronounced the more foggy our concept is, which works in our favor just fine.

I'd speculate that Melkoth's main specialty might be confusion. His spell uses a fog to convey the effect, but the effect itself is much more mental than it is physical. He'd still be a big help as the Head of Battle Magic, but I think he's more aligned with conceptual fogginess than physical fog. Still, depending on how the Fog Path works out, it might fit in that space.
 
If you don't want them fair enough, but the Boon is by it's very nature un-augmentable, especially by DF, and Waystone research would be a Karak project.

This can get done with 0.5 AP.
1. I believe @Klaus is referring to the cost of equipping a research institution, which we'd need to either pay out of pocket from Favour or spend a second Great Deed on.
2. The 1 AP Coins action and the .5 AP Coins action are meaningfully different. Both of them preserve some of the coins, but they do so in different ways, and they are not purely interchangeable or Boney wouldn't even offer the 1 AP version as it would be strictly worse. Saying "I think we should do the .5 AP variant instead of the 1 AP variant" is reasonable; saying "you can get the same thing for .5 AP as you can for 1" is not.
 
If you don't want them fair enough, but the Boon is by it's very nature un-augmentable, especially by DF, and Waystone research would be a Karak project.

This can get done with 0.5 AP.

One idea of a Research Institute in K8P involves spending the boon on a Great Library, and a great deed on a college branch for research that we slowly build up through our own investment. Therefore, augmentation.

0.5 AP is the non-controversial option. There are people who will advocate for 1 AP because they feel it's worth not maximizing prep-time for.

Edit: Weber'd.
 
Hmm, reading over the gun debates, I'm reexamining our guns, at which point I suddenly realized we've been talking clean past each other for a less obvious reason.
-Revolvers
--Close range - Used together with our sword, grants additional attacks, which can be made with either gun or sword as narratively appropriate, until we run out of shots. At this range, casting most spells is ill advised.
---For close range work the gun is mainly useful to project threat, our sword hits harder, period. As such to augment this role, it should be most effective to add fire per bullet to apply additional wounds.

--Mid range - Used paired, or used to supplement Shadow Knives. Mainly superceded by Shadow Knives, which are quieter, armor piercing, let us teleport and don't need to reload.
---For mid range work theres several routes, which need to take into account that you aren't going to beat Shadow Knives in its niche, find something Shadow Knives is bad at instead rather than getting a more expensive Shadow Knives +1.
----Multitarget AoEs, Shadow Knives fires quite a few blades, but if swarmed by goblins, snotlings or idiots, if Burning Shadows cannot be applied, and if we don't have the Acid Fog spell figured out yet...there is a niche here. Note that such a weapon considers repeatable fire as an important function, when swarmed its unlikely to be just the one swarm but rather up to 3-6 before we can get properly disengaged.
----Heavy hits, for opponents too tough to cleanly take out with Shadow Knives in a burst, or regenerators like trolls which don't really mind being stabbed a lot in the vulnerables unless they are literally gibbed.

--'Long' range - Used to triple tap opponents which are too durable to be oneshot by the Marksman pistol, and which sneaking up to and shanking with Shadow Knives/Branalhune is not an option for various reasons. In general the Marksman pistol or a Wand of Explosions should be a better fit.
---Covertness, this would Silenced guns for getting away with putting three bullets into a target without anyone realizing.
---Heavy hits, for ensuring that the target goes DOWN when you assassinate them with three rounds rapid.


So in conclusion, I believe we're talking about three items, and thats why theres a lot of dispute because you can't fit three items into one without being shitty at all three roles.
My recommended purchases:
-Paired Rune of Fire Revolvers - Meant for spamming flaming bullets in close combat or gouts of fire at mid range. To be used a lot of time with only as much time for reloading as you get between engagements. In melee they add multiple wounds on targets which don't need a Str 10 sword hit to hurt but DO have a lot of meat to work through.

-One At Sufficient Velocity Marksman Pistol - Meant for decapitation assassination of high value targets. Reusability per campaign a plus but you don't expect on firing this more than once per battle. You want something that hits very hard to penetrate armor, but against targets which do not necessarily have multiple wounds, like shamans and sorcerors, anything harder is a boss fight, not assassinatable beyond an opening round wound.

-Wand Of Explosions - Insert battlemagic item here. You use this once or twice per campaign to straight out fry everything in the target zone, or take out ultra hardened targets. Recharge irrelevant.
 
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So in conclusion, I believe we're talking about three items, and thats why theres a lot of dispute because you can't fit three items into one without being shitty at all three roles.
My recommended purchases:
-Paired Rune of Fire Revolvers - Meant for spamming flaming bullets in close combat or gouts of fire at mid range. To be used a lot of time with only as much time for reloading as you get between engagements

-One At Sufficient Velocity Marksman Pistol - Meant for decapitation assassination of high value targets. Reusability per campaign a plus but you don't expect on firing this more than once per battle. You want something that hits very hard to penetrate armor, but against targets which do not necessarily have multiple wounds, like shamans and sorcerors.

-Wand Of Explosions - Insert battlemagic item here. You use this once or twice per campaign to straight out fry everything in the target zone, or take out ultra hardened targets. Recharge irrelevant.
I pointed this out earlier with my distinction between the tactical role filled by revolver and the one filled by the marksdwarf pistol/crossbow, but your breakdown is good.

I would point out, though, that we don't have space for three items. We have space for one item in our Ranged slot and one item in our Activated slot.
Melee Weapon: Branulhune
Ranged Weapon:
Staff/Banner:
Protective: Robes of Aethyric Armour
Healing: Seed of Regrowth
Talisman: Belt of the Unshackled Mountain
Social: Ranald's Coin
Activated 1: Candle of Cleansing Radiance
Activated 2: Grounding Rod
Activated 3:

- The Weapon slots can each be filled with a matched pair of weapons, such as dual pistols or a sword and dagger. They must be intended to be used together.
- Any item that directly makes Mathilde more able to take a hit must be in Protective; something that protects her less directly can be in Protective or Talisman.
- No healing effects outside of the Healing slot.
- Activated refers to items that do not have a constant effect. These can include single-shot ranged weapons as these would be effectively identical to wands or rings enchanted with similar effects. These cannot automatically detect when they should be used. They need to be manually activated in some way.
We'd need to drop one of our Activated items if we wished to make room for your proposed two separate single-shot ranged weapons.
 
I pointed this out earlier with my distinction between the tactical role filled by revolver and the one filled by the marksdwarf pistol/crossbow, but your breakdown is good.

I would point out, though, that we don't have space for three items. We have space for one item in our Ranged slot and one item in our Activated slot.

We'd need to drop one of our Activated items if we wished to make room for your proposed two separate single-shot ranged weapons.
Well, its more with regards to what people are wanting. For me I'm happy enough with the Rune of Fire Revolver set, and then we can decide whether we want a sniping tool or a pocket nuke
 
We'd be much better off learning a nuke as BM and casting it ourselves. We're going to be nuking armies, and armies have spellcaster support that'd be able to shut down an item. We'll also frequently have allies danger close - the way Mathilde does things, it's likely that she herself will be inside the AoE pretty frequently - so we'll need the extra precision we can get by casting it ourselves. I'd much rather spend our remaining activated slot on a ring of invisibility.

A straight upgrade for our revolvers sounds reasonable to me, as does a straight damage upgrade for our marksdwarf pistol.
 
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