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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Simon_Jester said:
On the other hand, I also like the idea of Mathilde's partner being someone who is, well, more... grounded than herself. Someone who has insights into her character, who gets her without necessarily having exactly the same interests and desires as her. Someone who's got anchors into a specific patch of land that we're going to be interested in coming back to for a long time in the future.
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You realize that applies equally to Roswita or Anton? Maybe their insights into Mathilde's character are less than Pan's because they don't interact with her as often as the K8P magic club does as a whole, but they do tick the other boxes.

Garlak said:
'Course, Johann's kind of ahead on the adventures meter, because we've actually been able to go on adventures with him. Scouting and attacking Skaven. Shared experiences matter, I think. (As an aside in general and not just for right now... To connect this to even the first half of this post too... The past matters. Not just a nebulous future of uncertainties. Having shared things with people. And not just speculating on what they might be capable of psychologically.)
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Well, there's also the thing about which standards you're judging them by? I'd argue that Max is just as integral to Mathilde's achievements in the Karak, except most people don't think of shared academic experiences and insights as "adventures." To be fair, Mathilde regards academia and research as "something that has to be done" rather than anything particularly stimulating.
 
silentorphan said:
Well, there's also the thing about which standards you're judging them by? I'd argue that Max is just as integral to Mathilde's achievements in the Karak, except most people don't think of shared academic experiences and insights as "adventures." To be fair, Mathilde regards academia and research as "something that has to be done" rather than anything particularly stimulating.
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Not achievements, but dungeon-delving. Those kinds of adventures. (Though... was it Max or Johann (or both) that helped out with the artillery during the expedition? Hm. But anyway.)

Max really needs to be able to have something like having gone on a Gyrocopter ride with Mathilde and shot a lot of Orcs from it, to really completely qualify as a shared Mathilde Adventure experience. :)

... In fact, that would be a pretty darn cool thing to do... In fact, now I want to see that. Max shootings things from a Gyrocopter, and Mathilde riding it too. That could be a cool scene.
 
silentorphan said:
Well, there's also the thing about which standards you're judging them by? I'd argue that Max is just as integral to Mathilde's achievements in the Karak, except most people don't think of shared academic experiences and insights as "adventures." To be fair, Mathilde regards academia and research as "something that has to be done" rather than anything particularly stimulating.
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You make a decent point but well, Max isn't one of the Romance candidates. If this batch fails to impress and the issue gets rehashed, then I'd be more willing to consider him, but unless that happens Maximilian isn't really a factor to be considered in this regard.
 
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Glau said:
That's kinda the point of Pan for me; she would be the one who keeps Mathilde from burning out. Who tells her it is ok to take a month off and just carve little horses. Grounding.
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I think she's grounding too, but I don't think that's good. If you ground a plane, it's not flying. If you ground a lightning bolt, it's gone. Ground mist and it's just dew. We're not a tree or a farm that needs the soil. We have an environment we work better in, and that's work as in 'exert ourselves' and work as in 'function happily'. It's got a steel pillar in the living room that goes all the way down to Dwarven Hell, and that scares Panoramia, and it's got a thousand books in its library, and she doesn't want to read them. We could argue back and forth on what Mathilde really wants, in the end, so this is really just personal preferences all around, but I don't think we're tired. I don't think we need to relax, as if we're exerting ourselves terribly.

I don't want to stop flying. I want somebody who can fly with us. Johann's got that going for him; he'd be happy to be there every step of the way. Anton's happy to encourage us. Roswita isn't sure what to think, but she's warming up to the notion, and Oswald thinks that if he can't walk our path he'll take his own and be proud of himself too. Cython's never touched the ground. This is Panoramia.
BoneyM said:
"You know what I'm doing?" She leans back in her chair with a smug smile. "Nothing. And the month after that? Nothing. And the month after that, I think I'm going to get around to catching up on my nothing."
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I read that entire post, so don't think I'm taking that out of context and ignoring everything else she talked about or anything, but that's my takeaway.
 
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Garlak said:
Question: you know, thinking about it, but... what if it ends up being the case, that scouting out the Road of Skulls or Steppes or Waste ends up requiring multiple AP?

That is, because the Steppes are so big, just one AP put into them does not cover it all.
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We just need an overview of the oaths we are likely to take.
Garlak said:
Or put another way: do you feel comfortable having a military campaign rest on the back of just one AP invested in scouting a really big terrain? =/
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It's not resting in the back of one AP. There's a hell of a lot more going on than that.

Regardless, we are very likely going to scout ahead regardless.

So I'm perfectly fine with the two mid-range options to get a feel of where to go and what to avoid. One T32 and one T33 just before we leave to keep it fresh..
 
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I dunno about grounding or hidden depths or ambitions or whatnot. Maybe, maybe not.

I think the most important question basically comes down to 'Does this person care about you?' 'Can this person love you?' Can they take care of you, can you see them doing that, see getting into a relationship where they care about you like that, etc. Shared interests or shared character traits like ambition or curiosity (sidenote, just remembered; Johann was curious enough to poke at the Ancestor God's stuff... that's pretty cool actually) are neat. But not necessary or sufficient, I feel.

Things like being able to share things and be honest would help... though we might struggle with that, given who we are and the sorts of things we've gotten ourselves into. I think it'll be an issue, possibly a thorny one. (But I don't think the answer to that is 'Get somebody who wouldn't care about those secrets of yours. To whom it would not be important or of any consequence.' That's not a plus.) (You might have to settle for somebody who knows you will have, and keep, lots of secrets, possibly even important ones, and be willing to accept that.) (If, that is, you can't find somebody who you wind up being able to share most/some/all/whatever of those secrets with. That would be the best scenario. :) )
 
I couldn't find the original reference (I thought from the EIC reports?) of that cult (...in Talabecland?) to a local hunt god taking on aspects of an Elven god, but...
BoneyM said:
The Hochlander has managed to parlay his recent contacts into an invitation and is currently deep in conversation with a Taalite and an Ulrican.
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Is this Rudiger von Bechafen (aka The Hochlander) starting some investigations? The right two Cults to start with (if the Eonir are involved in this, as seems likely to me) and working with existing Empire institutions is how he rolls.
BoneyM said:
"Huh." She frowns thoughtfully. "Bunch of things just made sense. I stamped out a Cult of Styriss on Ostermark a while back that was hitting way above its weight, this was one of the symbols they had on their shrines."

"Write a letter to the Taalites about it," you suggest. "I've got a contact or two that could pass it on for you. The major Cults take a dim view of the nastier Elven Gods trying to slip into the Old World."
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And this might be another manifestation of a similar trend?
Elven cults making a play for human Worship, perhaps working with the belief that 'they're the same anyway'? Perhaps inspired (or offended) by the 'Ulric comes to the Eonir' thing.
 
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BoneyM said:
The only other oddity is reports from Talabecland that there's been a fairly significant increase in the worship of Karnos, the local God of the Hunt. Unusual, but as he's not proscribed and seems relatively harmless, it's probably not anything to worry about.
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Considering what we've learned about the Ostermark goddess of poaching, this takes on another meaning.
 
How did it turn out that Mathilde is just surrounded by people who are fed up with the elves? The Dwarves are fed up with the elves. Cython is fed up with elves. The Eonir and Asarnil are fed up with other elves. Wilhemina, Heidi and probably most of our imperial friends are increasingly fed up with elves over Marienburg.

With the exception of our invitation to the least Asur of the 10 kingdoms, I don't think Mathilde has ever a positive interaction regarding the Asur of Ulthuan.
 
Parzival95 said:
How did it turn out that Mathilde is just surrounded by people who are fed up with the elves?
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If everyone you meet thinks you're a jerk, there might be something to that assessment. :V

(Jokes aside, the elves do indeed do good work, and if nothing else Mathilde is eternally in debt to them because of Teclis founding the Colleges. But the elves were the instigators of the War of the Beard, and it's easy to see why the Hysh Dragon might have a poor opinion of DElves. Asarnil and the Eonir aren't nearly as justified, to be honest.)
 
Well, mostly it's just that we put Teclis into his own category, so his actions don't cross over into the general sentiment (because we know other elves are nothing like him), and all of the other elves we combine into a single group in much the same way that you can encompass Tilea, the Empire, and Norsca in the same breath by saying 'humans'.

The dwarves hate the crazy elves who got gaslit into starting a war with them by the evil elves, but they've been making overtures with the good and political elves since Thorgrim took the throne.

Cython hates the evil elves who they believe to be all elves, but if they knew there was a difference between them and the good and political elves they're entirely reasonable enough to understand and care about the distinction.

The Eonir hate the crazy elves for being crazy after they were gaslit, but that's the fault of the evil elves, and Asarnil hates the good elves because our personal sentiments aside he's ridiculously arrogant and didn't even stick around to see what Finubar wanted to say to him before assuming that it was an insult and jetting off.

Our political friends hate the political elves for having fairly normal political interests, the power to cause trouble in the process of enforcing them, and an alliance with a bunch of crazy humans who take that as a free ticket to start stuff without repercussions, but they'd never negatively interact if their human allies weren't such jerks.

In short, everybody we know hates elves the same way everybody we know hates humans; it's not that simple and essentially they don't, but we don't really meet elves so we don't bother to specify which elves anybody is talking about in our memes.
 
Yes! The long-awaited Roswita post came through while I was sleeping, and it was good! The resulting thread discussion was a bit... Depressing, but let's not dwell on that and instead take a look at the works of master flirt Mathilde!

BoneyM said:
"You know what might make that weight a bit lighter?" She turns to look at you. "Imagining all the future days you're about to ruin for Vampires across the Old World. All those Necrarchs without their precious books."

She smiles. "Von Carsteins with faded livery."
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Step one: Tell your crush to imagine something that make them happy

BoneyM said:
"Lahmians with tattered silks."
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Step two: Tell them to imagine beautiful women wearing little and tattered cloth.

BoneyM said:
"Blood Dragons with rusted swords." She smothers a giggle with her stein. "That does help. Thank you."
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Step three: Profit.

BoneyM said:
While she goes to circulate amongst the rather insular knot of Sigmarites, you slip into the crowd in search of people you recognize. Your hat combined with your robes gets you a lot of confused looks, but some looks of recognition, and you exchange nods with a Knight of the Black Guard and a Cleric from the Order of Guardians. The Hochlander has managed to parlay his recent contacts into an invitation and is currently deep in conversation with a Taalite and an Ulrican. From your own College, you see Lord Magister Melkoth doing severe damage to the sideboard under the eye of the poor Perpetual whose job it is to keep him away from the drinks and to remind him this isn't the right audience for his favourite party trick, and in the most shadowy corner he could find, Lord Magister Kurtis Krammovitch is talking animatedly to a cluster of dubious-looking Witch Hunters. And most prominent of all, the flow of the crowd is severely hampered by the circle of Morrites side-eyeing Lady Magister Elspeth von Draken as she chats with a Bretonnian Damsel.
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And in case you are wondering: Yes, I am currently lowkey shipping all of these.

BurnNote said:
That he's dead. Something like "May the earth rest lightly on him", but in latin.
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Also not an expression I'd expect to be used in Stirland.

The earth already has a tendency to rest rather lightly.
 
Do we even know if Ulthuan or Finubar has any focus or care or intent in Marienburg? I mean at best/worst, even if somebody from Ulthuan is interested... it could be the equivalent of just some traders or politicians. (I mean, could be a strong house or clan, but -- in the end, it could be the equivalent of an Elf trading company that is seeing which way the wind is blowing and is just looking into their interests of trade.) At other best/worst, it could just be Marienburg itself. alone
Parzival95 said:
How did it turn out that Mathilde is just surrounded by people who are fed up with the elves?
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We live in a Dwarfhold. This should not be very surprising. :V :p And the Dragon previously lived in Naggaroth.

Our actual experiences with elves involved: Asarnil, Daroir, and Cadaeth. All of three people.

Even the people we know and have been around -- Belegar and the Van Hals and so on -- probably haven't had much personal or political contact with Elves at all.

Hmm.

I wonder if Barak Varr has a certain stance on or relation to Elves though? Hostile, competitive, flexible, cosmopolitan, grumbling, what?
 
Garlak said:
Do we even know if Ulthuan or Finubar has any focus or care or intent in Marienburg?
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Through the Elven Enclave in Marienburg, Ulthuan is able to apply soft pressure to the Empire and Brettonia.

So it's not, like, "top priority protect at all costs", but losing it gives them one less lever to use to affect politics in the old world, and they need all the levers they can get to oppose Chaos with maximum efficacy.

If it was really just Empire vs. Marienburg, then Finubar would send aid to Marienburg, for much the same reason that basically that exact thing happened historically.

Involving the Dwarves changes the calculus significantly though, because while losing that lever is still a blow, it's very obviously preferable to what a flare-up of elf-dwarf battles would cost.

The issue then becomes Finubar trying to maneuver within Ulthuan's own internal politics, since there's merchant families that have a more personal interest in Marienburg and dwarf-hating elements that would love an opportunity to add to the Cloak of Beards.
 
Garlak said:
I think that the amount of interest that a curious new topic and sudden discovery is, should not be mistaken for romantic interest and compatibility. :V Getting excited about learning a new thing, or exploring history that nobody has before, is not the same as being a good romance target.

Also, frankly, I've always been of the opinion we should stick to somebody who we could actually hug, too. Physical comfort and love is important, dammit.
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While I do get the appreciation for personal warmth and having shelter from the world that Pan could provide (if she is interested) that is not the only sort of romance there is. The dragon as a romantic pursuit is about fascination with magic, it's about wanting to be part of something great and terrible, a history older than the whole of mankind, it is about the little blurb next to Mathilde's learning score: The magical world makes more sense to you than the 'real' one.

In a very real sense she does not live in the same world as say Roswita, she can perceive reality in general and other people in particular in a way that would be unimaginable to people without magesight. That perception and the power it gives her over the world is I think key to understanding who Mathilde is, the peasant girl betrayed by her family who came to see the colleges as her home and her master as a father, the girl who at her lowest point, alone and afraid in Aldorf for those first few days decided to name a cat Mor in an attempt to loophole her Dooming, the woman who calls the god Ranald her oldest and dearest friend. I could certainly see her falling in love with a dragon though this would be far from a cozy tale.

All the above being said I'm not opposed to Panoramia as a romantic partener, she is a mage and she can experience the parts of Mathilde's life that are intimately connected to magic. Part of me wants to bring her in on the more outre projects just to see how she would react, in this case Mathilde would be the one pulling the more sheltered Panoramia into the deep waters of ambition and arcane secrets.
 
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DragonParadox said:
While I do get the appreciation for personal warmth and having shelter from the world that Pan could provide (if she is interested) that is not the only sort of romance there is. The dragon as a romantic pursuit is about fascination with magic, it's about wanting to be part of something great and terrible, a history older than the whole of mankind, it is about the little blurb next to Mathilde's learning score: The magical world makes more sense to you than the 'real' one.

In a very real sense she does not live in the same world as say Roswita, she can perceive reality in general and other people in particular in a way that would be unimaginable to people without magesight. That perception and the power it gives her over the world is I think key to understanding who Mathilde is, the peasant girl betrayed by her family who came to see the colleges as her home and her master as a father, the girl who at her lowest point, alone and afraid in Aldorf for those first few days decided to name a cat Mor in an attempt to loophole her Dooming, the woman who calls the god Ranald her oldest and dearest friend. I could certainly see her falling in love with a dragon though this would be far from a cozy tale.
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None of that... really sounds like romance and intimacy though? You're just describing an interest and passion for researching magic and mysteries. You described a person's passion for research and discovery in an artistic or scientific field. And described a desire to have colleagues, or friends, who understand you and that field.

I mean... Literally, you could get everything you described and want just from researching magic alongside a person and finding out more about them? If mean... If this is what you're interested in, then... work to strike up a friendship or collaboration with the dragon.

But don't block off romance and intimacy for the people that want romance and intimacy. Which is what drawing such a separation and definition would be. Er. How to phrase that better... You've described something that isn't really romance or intimacy. And said "And some people want these things!" And I'm like "Okay, sure... But that's not romance." "So don't 'block' off people who actually want romance and/or intimacy or emotional caregiving, by locking in 'this' thing you just described as 'the' romance option."

To come back to it and restate things... You've expressed interest in discovering magic and mysteries and stuff. But you don't need to be romantically involved to be able to do that.

Put another way... Let's say the dragon loses the romance-bowl. Do you think you would stop suddenly wanting to interact with him? Wanting to explore magic and history and stuff? Or would you keep voting for that, so long as the dragon were willing to keep interacting?
 
Garlak said:
None of that... really sounds like romance and intimacy though? You're just describing an interest and passion for researching magic and mysteries. You described a person's passion for research and discovery in an artistic or scientific field. And described a desire to have colleagues, or friends, who understand you and that field.

I mean... Literally, you could get everything you described and want just from researching magic alongside a person and finding out more about them? If mean... If this is what you're interested in, then... work to strike up a friendship or collaboration with the dragon.

But don't block off romance and intimacy for the people that want romance and intimacy. Which is what drawing such a separation and definition would be. Er. How to phrase that better... You've described something that isn't really romance or intimacy. And said "And some people want these things!" And I'm like "Okay, sure... But that's not romance." "So don't 'block' off people who actually want romance and/or intimacy or emotional caregiving, by locking in 'this' thing you just described as 'the' romance option."

To come back to it and restate things... You've expressed interest in discovering magic and mysteries and stuff. But you don't need to be romantically involved to be able to do that.

Put another way... Let's say the dragon loses the romance-bowl. Do you think you would stop suddenly wanting to interact with him? Wanting to explore magic and history and stuff? Or would you keep voting for that, so long as the dragon were willing to keep interacting?
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This is not specifically me writing my interest, or at least it's not only that, it's attempting to contextualize what romance with the dragon would be, what it would mean if we do vote that way. Passion for another thinking being, for the deeds they might share, fascination and attraction towards them, all that sounds like romance, if not of the most typical sort. It's leaning into the things that make Mathilde other, that make her 'shadow-being' rather than those things that make her human.
 
DragonParadox said:
This is not specifically me writing my interest, or at least it's not only that, it's attempting to contextualize what romance with the dragon would be, what it would mean if we do vote that way. Passion for another thinking being, for the deeds they might share, fascination and attraction towards them, all that sounds like romance, if not of the most typical sort. It's leaning into the things that make Mathilde other, that make her 'shadow-being' rather than those things that make her human.
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Again, that... sounds like a desire/vote for "a-romantic" then, frankly? Things like "focusing on the thing that mages you magic and not-human, rather than on the humanity" and all that, as romance is a very human and social being thing rather than a distant magic thing. (Ghyran or Aqshy wouldn't be out of place of course. But, this isn't Ghyran or Aqshy.)

I'd rather have somebody that relates to us as a human. And/or as a human mage, if applicable. If anything, I feel it would be very good to have somebody that's human, or a human wizard, in romance.

What you're describing sounds more like a desire to have voted "a-romantic" back then, and then pursued magic research and mystery and dragons.
 
Garlak said:
Again, that... sounds like a desire/vote for "a-romantic" then, frankly? Things like "focusing on the thing that mages you magic and not-human, rather than on the humanity" and all that, as romance is a very human and social being thing rather than a distant magic thing. (Ghyran or Aqshy wouldn't be out of place of course. But, this isn't Ghyran or Aqshy.)

I'd rather have somebody that relates to us as a human. And/or as a human mage, if applicable. If anything, I feel it would be very good to have somebody that's human, or a human wizard, in romance.

What you're describing sounds more like a desire to have voted "a-romantic" back then, and then pursued magic research and mystery and dragons.
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I don't really see it that way, asexual certainly, but romance is about having a close personal relationship with another, its about attraction, trust and care for another being. The attraction can be born of magic, if I one is permitted some sappiness you could say the dragon has a beautiful soul. It is both an odd sort of romance and one that we would have to start from scratch since we barely know Cython so I would count it a definite underdog but I think it is doing Mathilde's full character a disfavor to call it 'no romance at all'.
 
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Garlak said:
Again, that... sounds like a desire/vote for "a-romantic" then, frankly? Things like "focusing on the thing that mages you magic and not-human, rather than on the humanity" and all that, as romance is a very human and social being thing rather than a distant magic thing. (Ghyran or Aqshy wouldn't be out of place of course. But, this isn't Ghyran or Aqshy.)

I'd rather have somebody that relates to us as a human. And/or as a human mage, if applicable. If anything, I feel it would be very good to have somebody that's human, or a human wizard, in romance.

What you're describing sounds more like a desire to have voted "a-romantic" back then, and then pursued magic research and mystery and dragons.
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Eh... here's the thing. You seem to have a very particular view of romance and how it should be, but in all honesty every single romance is unique. For some, it's a meeting of the minds, such as DP is describing. Two intelligent people sharing discourse, discovery, playing off each and with each other as they explore a grand magical world together, testing and pushing to the limits of what they can achieve. For others, it's more how you seem to prefer, with warmth and comfort and emotional support more than anything. For even more it's about adventure, about the thrill of battle and journeys, all while watching each other's back and covering weaknesses. At the same time, every single one of these could be completely platonic. Romance is not defined, not the way you seem to be trying to. It's two people dedicating themselves to each other, no matter what form that dedication may take.
 
Ericwinter said:
*Snip*
At the same time, every single one of these could be completely platonic. Romance is not defined, not the way you seem to be trying to. It's two people dedicating themselves to each other, no matter what form that dedication may take.
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Well if Romance is not defined, then what's the purpose of having it as a word? Also you literally define Romance Yourself, right after you say that it is not defined.

But to discuss the definition, I'd have to disagree with your idea that Romance involves being "Dedicated", People will claim to have a night of wild Romance with someone, before never seeing them again, just one night of passion and all that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to call platonic relationships invalid or anything of the sort. But I do think Garlak might have the more mainstream view of Romance here, as I do expect most people, when they voted Yes Romance, were expecting some level of you know:
Ericwinter said:
For others, it's more how you seem to prefer, with warmth and comfort and emotional support more than anything.
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That. You know emotional, physical, and probably but not necessarily, Sexual intimacy. Hell even Intellectual Intimacy to an extent.

So yeah, while he might ahve been better of adding some "I feel" 's and "In my opinions" 's and all that, I think he has a legitimate point.
 
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