Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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That's what I was focusing on, actually. So if I was trying to 'define romance' with my wordings, then so's this, sorta.
True, I'm thinking about and placing value in being able to have a normal human relationship with a person, yeah. In being able to live and share life. And to me, that entails certain things, like having the person able to care for you in life or have your back and so on.
Hmmm... I would say that it would be closer to have used the word "relationship" rather than "romance", in that sentence of "Romance is not defined, not the way you seem to be trying to." A relationship can be many different things and ways. Romance is a bit more specific or defined or particular.
So, I guess that's what I'm seeing in DragonParadox's posts and objecting to, I suppose. He's wanting a relationship or interaction. But he wants to call it a romance, too. And I guess I object to that a bit. As romance would mean more than just those things that you'd get from that kind of relationship.
Though speaking of care and caring about another person... Yeah, that's another of my hesitations about this. I feel somebody like Johann or Panoramia or Anton would care for us more, and more easily and naturally, then somebody who's a total question mark and is a dragon rather than a human. Shared experiences, culture, values, shared life. We've got all that with those three. We're already friends with them. The dragon's a total stranger, and I don't like that. (Yes, yes I know, 'But if we do our best to understand him, then he won't be a stranger!' I still don't like it. It's moving away/on from people we know, and already trust and care for, in order to poke at and explore somebody else.) Honestly, I think the dragon is more like an interesting mystery to explore, potentially a friend or associate, rather than a partner.
That plus, just, "Will this person have my back in my life in general?" Will they provide support and care. Will they be a partner.
It doesn't even have to be them having specific skills for situations like "Well if you're caught up in magic politics, what the hell is Anton or Oswald going to be good for then, huh?" I mean, that we could go to them or confide to them or just know that they have our backs in some way.
Of course, various people bring varieties and skills and abilities here. Max would have our back in research and academia. Panoramia would be able to provide healing and food. Johann would be able to sneak and fight alongside us, the crazy bastard.
Well, I mean, I'm already putting a lot of parts where I go "I think" or "I feel" or hemming and hawing and "Hmmm..."s in my posts.
(And even then sometimes just getting told "But that's just your opinion, of course. You have a particular view of romance. Others may think differently." Well, I mean, yes. Yes, those're my opinions or feelings. The posts themselves even already say this. Do I have to be even more "IMO" in my posting??)
EDIT: Heck I mean, so much of my posting is tentative and rough and couched in cautious or personal terms or musings that... I don't even know, man.
EDIT 2, after internet hiccup: Obviously these are my opinions, sure. But, I mean... equally obviously, I would not be sharing them if I didn't think I had a point or was right (or more right) in some way. =/
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2486, according to my whiteboard.
The average Elf is fed up with at least nine kingdoms of Elves.
No, but the We don't generally go above ground and Cython doesn't go below it unless given good reason.
PsyFarrow
Verified Necrodancer
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Oh okay. I suppose at some point we're gonna have to formally introduce the neighbours. Interested in what Cython's take on hiveminded spiders is gonna be.
More like twelve, counting Naggaroth and Athel Loren, I think.
Hm. How many of the other imperial state provinces is the average Imperial fed up with, in comparison?
Although I started off asking that semi-jokingly, I suppose it does work as a question about the topic of how the Imperials feel about their fellows, and what inter-empire tensions and relationships are like. I know that it's not perfectly harmonious of course -- not nearly, hah -- but how are inter-Empire tensions and relations going? (Or do we, bluntly, simply do not know enough about this -- and don't spend enough time and focus on the Empire to warrant such?)
- Location
- The Lurk
And the reverse. Cython is only one, but damn, what a one.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Okay, perhaps I should have been clearer. It has no specific definition. Romance, for all that there's a general "meaning", has near infinite forms and, from an outside perspective, may not even look like romance at all. I know if someone looked at some of the people in my family and their relationships, they wouldn't believe it was real. It's like trying to define love. Everybody would have a different answer. In fact, I even clarify in the quoted post—you know that bit you skipped over when underlining?—that it can't be defined the way they are trying. but sure. Maybe my particular idea of romance isn't accurate either. I'll admit that.
Passion and romance are two very different things. But that's getting into semantics and about as difficult to argue as "what is love", so I'll leave off. And sure, Garlak has their preferences—I even share some, being an avid fan of Panoramia and Roswita myself—but the "point" they are trying to make is that romance only takes the form they prefer, and that a relationship based on intellectual discourse and scientific discovery isn't really romantic. That is something I disagree with wholeheartedly.
I don't know, maybe I stepped into a conversation I shouldn't have, and misunderstood something. But reading the comments again, I'm seeing: "passion and interest in someone's otherworldly nature/intelligence totally counts as a romantic interest" followed by "No, that sounds aromantic and like you just want to do cool magical research, so stop trying to say it's romance". And that made me stop and stare, because it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, especially when the "that's not romantic" person also says "so stop blocking off romance for other people who want it". When, you know, they're the one trying to tell someone a certain option isn't romantic.
HanEmpire
Delicious
The average Imperial is fed up with Nordland, including Nordlanders.Hm. How many of the other imperial state provinces is the average Imperial fed up with, in comparison?
Hm. How many of the other imperial state provinces is the average Imperial fed up with, in comparison?
Although I started off asking that semi-jokingly, I suppose it does work as a question about the topic of how the Imperials feel about their fellows, and what inter-empire tensions and relationships are like. I know that it's not perfectly harmonious of course -- not nearly, hah -- but how are inter-Empire tensions and relations going? (Or do we, bluntly, simply do not know enough about this -- and don't spend enough time and focus on the Empire to warrant such?)
Most provinces have negative stereotypes about the others, but unless there's an active cause of tension like between Middenland and Nordland they generally get along. 'They aren't as good as people from our province, but they're preferable to Kislevites/Bretonnians/Tileans/Estalians and much better than Norscans/Marauders/Orcs/Beastmen' sort of thing.
I don't know - Cython seems to really want to learn stuff in order to make a relationship work. Like more than anyone else. Then there's thoughtful gifts and a willingness to place themselves into a relatively vulnerable position for Mathilde's comfort.
Those are pretty good signs - there's a very good potential for a relationship here.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
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How do people feel about getting one last use out of Qrech? Set him free with a sack of warpstone near clan Moulder. Put our matrix in him and tell him if the dwarf expedition is attacked by clan Moulder we will kill him from a distance. He might stop any attacks or he might not, but either way it costs us very little.
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SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
I feel that it's unnecessary, unlikely to be succeed, and has the potential to be harmful to Mathilde, the expedition, and the Conspiracy of Silence. So, no, I wouldn't be in favor of such an action. Best to just let him grow old and pass away in peace, as a reward for his unknowing contributions in combating his kind.
He's got access to the same College courses that Mathilde has. If he's so inclined, he can make it happen.
Shovern
Extravagant Shitposter
I didn't highlight that bit, but I did read it. I'll admit I should have included the underline, but I left it out for a visual break between the two bits. Which I could have accomplished with separate quotes in hindsight.
But my thought was more, You seemed to be telling him that he can't define Romance that way, then you defined Romance this way. Does that make sense? Like you seemed to be telling him he can't do something, that you then proceed to do?
I'm not even going to say that you're wrong there, just that, as I looked on from outside the discussion, it seemd that those two sentences should not be keeping each other company. They seemed Dissonant to me.
Firstly, you stepped over no lines, he gave his opinion in a public forum, thus (IMO) you are automatically allowed to provide your opinion in a polite manner. And your response seemed polite and thought out, so I'd say you were good to go there. (As if I'm the arbitrator of who can say what and where
)I agree that they are two different things, but I was arguing with your specific notion that:
It required dedication. many healthy relationships and Romances do involve to people dedicating themselves to each other, but not all Romances do in my opinion, that's what I was trying to say there.
I don't feel that was their intent, but this:
This area where I think he would have been served well more of a "I feel that by classifying this platonic(in Garlaks opinion) seeming research partnership as a Romance, that it might end up leaving out people who very much wanted a Physical/Sexual/whatever Romance" Because as it stands, I do see how you get this:
Out of what he said. But in Garlaks defense, DP did sort of start with the very Definitive "This is how it is" language.
When I can safely bet money, that there are just some people in the thread that want one more dragon bone in Mathilde's life.
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He would tell them that we've deciphered Queekish.
I think some misunderstanding probably took place, yeah. Passion and interests in somebody's magic or nature could count, yeah, just... It's hard to express exactly. I guess it's more like an objection to the selected person, the dragon, specifically. That, to use an example or comparison, if it were passion and interest in Gilding or restoring the Caldera to life or waystones or maybe artillery or pets or whatever, it could work -- because those people would be Johann or Panoramia or Oswald. But there'd be more there, too. (i.e. If it were Max or Oswald or Kazrik or Gotri in the place here, and somebody was making the argument of wanting to get close to them over shared academic interest or interests in artillery or interests in runesmithing or curiosity about engineering... I'd shrug and go sure. But because it's the dragon, that's gets a 'No, because...' from me.) (Because I feel that those people, even if chosen to be approached for/from that particular reason... there'd still be more and other stuff, like the stuff I was sort of trying to define or explain, there too.)
And for the second paragraph... Well it's sort of like... If you want to explore otherworldly nature and magic and stuff, you still can do that even if the dragon doesn't win the romance vote. (Because, behold how many people would still be interested in pursuing that sort of stuff even afterwards. One of my posts -- maybe the same one -- said that too.) But if the humans lost the vote then if you want to pursue intimacy or a family or emotional closeness or sex still, then... you see the issue there, right?
Relationship and friendship, sure. I mean, I'd bet a lot of posters would be interested in knowing more about the dragon. Romance, I don't agree on.
I mean. It's like Kragg. He's inexplicably (or explicably
) really popular despite being 10 tons of grumbly curmudgeonness, and everybody's curious about him, to the point where BoneyM commented that he'd decided to slow the roll on the Kragg and Belegar options a bit, because otherwise everyone would pick those options every turn.And yet, I would not see Kragg as a romance target. At all. Grumpy uncle, yeah. Romance, erk, no. Belegar, maybe. The age difference there isn't too godawful bad, for Dwarf and Human ages/maturities. A relationship and connection is there. But there would be some serious problems and difficulties there, practical issues. Needing to marry and have children, needing to meet expectations or traditions, culture, etc. Mathilde being a wizard, and him a Dwarf King. But at least, it would feel possible or plausible or sensible or just... sort of, in my opinion, I could go see people going "Yeah, I guess I could see it?" Kragg though. Personalities and histories and age and positions and everything. Most people, despite the memeing and joking about it, probably would not go for that.
So we both might have had people looking in on the conversation and going 'Huh, that person seems to be saying Do X/Don't Do X.'
Heh. Perspectives and words, man.I fret a lot about how my words will be taken, and try to talk a lot or couch things and etc, but it still gets into things anyway. Plus, then, some topics or debate-points being more solid rather than soft and so on...
But, thank you very much for the defense man.
Feeling a lot less nervous and worried because of it.Huh, yes, nice! I think this probably gets to what I was trying to say or express more! (But fumbled it. And even as I was writing and posting it, I felt like I fumbled it, but went 'I can't make it any better; might as well post anyway and leave it up to the fates and fortune anyway and just pray.')
This also then explains how/why I could make the statement of "I think you're/you'd stop others from getting X" too, (without sounding hypocritical or double-standard-y) right? Because from my perspective, he can already/probably get all/most of what he wants... but if others wanted more, they'd be losing out. Whereas if people got the other kind of thing, then the thing DragonParadox wanted, would still be possible and achievable for him. Though I then sort of extended things into talking more about what romance is or is not (again) and then things proceeded from there and here we are...
I'm not sure that's a very workable idea. He most likely would seek to get the suicide-collar-equivalent removed from him. He might be flatly unable to do anything, have any influence, in Clan Moulder. Plus, just releasing him there means drawing attention to things going on there. Also also, this doesn't seem quite like Mathilde's style or methods of doing things... It doesn't exactly build on the approaches she's taken before, and instead is a big "Do this or you explode" thing.
Also, worst of all, Qrech knows that he gave us (Low) Queekish (and Skaven writing). Even if he thinks that we already knew it, if he shares the information with anybody, that might eventually get back to the wrong ears. He's a security/secrecy issue basically.
Yeah. Though... I'd like to be able to do something more, or socialize with him in some way, still. I'd like to read more about him, basically. Once in a while or etc. (Though, some people wrote sidestories or short fictions about him, so that counts. Like him playing out the battle of Drakenhof, that was a cool idea.)
I am not, however, sure of how that would be possible. What possible scene ideas are there? The current 'Qrech Gambits', well some of them don't appeal to me, as they involve releasing him, or... Hmm, well, one of them just says "Nobody knows you're alive, so you should... etcetc". But that one makes me think and wonder. Because, for one thing, is that one really a lie? Is that something we'd need to use the Deception Coin on? And secondly... what would come of it? Where would we go from there?
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SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
What would be required for Mathilde to take a direct hand in teaching him?
Shovern
Extravagant Shitposter
A write in?
[]Help Johann learn lingua praestantia .
Actually, I guess that sort of sounds like I'm expressing an interest in spending a Social AP on Qrech, huh?
Which... Actually yeah. You know what could be a viable Social Action topic, for him?
Going over what things and classes he's learned from Altdorf University.
I'm actually interested in reading more about that, now that I've verbalized it. It feels interesting and cool.
...
Huhm. Qrech learning more about human culture. (Or, well, at least human academic culture. In miniature.) That, too, could be absolutely fascinating.
Hell, morality or philosophy discussions with him could be interesting, too. What does loyalty and dedication mean to a Skaven, and to a human?
Because I've gotten the impression that... to a Skaven, they're still loyal to Skavendom, because, like... Because they think that the Skaven are powerful enough -- with their unmatched industry and warptech, and their magic and sheer numbers -- thaaat... they effectively can't be wiped out. They are not in a "delicate" place in the world. And even if they lose, even if their attempts get stymied, or even if they get hurt... they can still retreat and recover. And they will not lose too many things, nor lose too many of their advantages, at all ever. (Well I mean. Perhaps Chaos or Dawi Zharr might steal some of their tech, and then things would be a bit problematic for them. But aside from that, they're mostly good and secure, right.)
Skavenkind is not at risk of extinction or irrelevance in the world. Skaven kind is not at risk of "losing" "badly" to the rest of the world. The only thing in question... is how quickly or how well they can win. It is a simple confidence in the state of existence, and power, of your nation and people.
So therefore, the main concern becomes... 'How can I get the biggest piece of the pie? How can my Clan do best?' Or 'How can I fulfill or reach my desires or ambitions, or my personal close group's ambitions and desires, best?'
And that's the Skaven outlook.
Which... Actually yeah. You know what could be a viable Social Action topic, for him?
Going over what things and classes he's learned from Altdorf University.
I'm actually interested in reading more about that, now that I've verbalized it. It feels interesting and cool.
...
Huhm. Qrech learning more about human culture. (Or, well, at least human academic culture. In miniature.) That, too, could be absolutely fascinating.
Hell, morality or philosophy discussions with him could be interesting, too. What does loyalty and dedication mean to a Skaven, and to a human?
Because I've gotten the impression that... to a Skaven, they're still loyal to Skavendom, because, like... Because they think that the Skaven are powerful enough -- with their unmatched industry and warptech, and their magic and sheer numbers -- thaaat... they effectively can't be wiped out. They are not in a "delicate" place in the world. And even if they lose, even if their attempts get stymied, or even if they get hurt... they can still retreat and recover. And they will not lose too many things, nor lose too many of their advantages, at all ever. (Well I mean. Perhaps Chaos or Dawi Zharr might steal some of their tech, and then things would be a bit problematic for them. But aside from that, they're mostly good and secure, right.)
Skavenkind is not at risk of extinction or irrelevance in the world. Skaven kind is not at risk of "losing" "badly" to the rest of the world. The only thing in question... is how quickly or how well they can win. It is a simple confidence in the state of existence, and power, of your nation and people.
So therefore, the main concern becomes... 'How can I get the biggest piece of the pie? How can my Clan do best?' Or 'How can I fulfill or reach my desires or ambitions, or my personal close group's ambitions and desires, best?'
And that's the Skaven outlook.
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- She/Her
Well to be fair I braught up Johann being our adventuring buddy because Roswita and Panoramia stans where touting their academic achivements and/or ambitions as reasons they where well suited to Mathilde and Johann wasn't. So I wanted to point out how Johann compliments us in a different way.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I feel it too. I'm not sure whether it's proto-sisterly or proto-loverly, but it's definitely very charming.
This this this this. All of this. So much all of this.
Will this person cherish you and be a partner to you? Do they have your back?
That is what you really, really want to look for in a long term relationship.
To be fair, I'd give, say, an elf a pass for that, maybe, depending on the elf. At least enough to consider them, if they met the "do they have your back" test. Even if the relationship cannot possibly last more than a tiny fraction of their lifespan- do they have your back, while it lasts?
An elf, I could see being equipped to do that. To relate to a human being and care about how they feel and take them seriously as a person. It's not the normal way of elves to humans but it's not impossible.
A dragon? I dunno.
Yeah, all of this.
Yeah, I do realize it, and those are points in Roswita's and Anton's favor. The big difference is, I don't know if Mathilde would be happy and comfortable going back to Stirland to live out the rest of her life, or even a large fraction of her time for the rest of her life. I'm pretty sure she'd be happy at Karak Eight Peaks.
But it's actually a point in Roswita and Anton's favor for me, that they're grounded enough in the ordinary world to give Mathilde a sense of "something to come home to."