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I'm actually kinda hoping this goes badly now.

Pop the hubris bubble Before we get so bigheaded that the thread decides to go infiltrate Nagashizarr or piss off the Slann or something.
Aren't you one of the people who wanted to get a neat flying boat and explore the world? I was very much under the impression that going and poking far off stuff like Naggaroth/Lustria/the Tomb Kings/the Southlands was the main draw behind that and I'm not quite sure how to square that circle with wanting to avoid the proverbial dragons in the "here be dragons" bits of the map.

I mean, yes its kinda hubris, but as far as I could tell it's hubris you supported - so now I'm a bit confused.
 
I literally did in that quote.
...I'm sorry, but I am having an incredibly hard time understanding what literally any of this has to do with you know, the actual people that we would have to trade brettonian knights for. Because that's what I said. Compare it to the people who they will actually be competing with. Are you comparing them to the Light College? To swording or scouting or anything else that the AP could be spent on? No. You are directly comparing them to a group and set of AP that are unrelated. So no, you did not "literally do that in that quote". You did the exact opposite, and continued to do the exact opposite in your rebuttal. Like sure, yeah, the other knightly groups are better. That's nice, but we can have all three, so why does it matter if they're better? More knights is still more knights. But more knights compared to Light Wizards who can heal and say "daemon be gone"? More knights compared to Mathilde being able to sword bigger and badder monsters that might show up? More knights against having in depth knowledge of the terrain and denizens of the areas we're passing through? Those are the sort of arguments that should be made, not "well they're worse than the other two knightly groups that have zero bearing on whether we can recruit them or not". That was the point I was trying to make.
 
Aren't you one of the people who wanted to get a neat flying boat and explore the world? I was very much under the impression that going and poking far off stuff like Naggaroth/Lustria/the Tomb Kings/the Southlands was the main draw behind that and I'm not quite sure how to square that circle with wanting to avoid the proverbial dragons in the "here be dragons" bits of the map.

I mean, yes its kinda hubris, but as far as I could tell it's hubris you supported - so now I'm a bit confused.

Yes I am. Notice that also advocate going to those places in magically buffed warmachine that is armed to the teeth and then some.

And that i've never (Seriously) advocated doing incredibly stupid shit once we get there.

You can talk and barter with the tomb kings, but the moment someone would advocate for stealing their shit, I'd come down on them like the wrath of god.

Same thing for the slann and challenging them to magical duels.

We can mess about with the abandoned ruins and such plenty without challenging the god toads to Arcane combat.

Bringing journeyman wizards into corruption central, or going in there like it will be a cakewalk, seems like it would be about as stupid as either of those two things.
 
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...I'm sorry, but I am having an incredibly hard time understanding what literally any of this has to do with you know, the actual people that we would have to trade brettonian knights for. Because that's what I said. Compare it to the people who they will actually be competing with. Are you comparing them to the Light College? To swording or scouting or anything else that the AP could be spent on? No. You are directly comparing them to a group and set of AP that are unrelated. So no, you did not "literally do that in that quote". You did the exact opposite, and continued to do the exact opposite in your rebuttal. Like sure, yeah, the other knightly groups are better. That's nice, but we can have all three, so why does it matter if they're better? More knights is still more knights. But more knights compared to Light Wizards who can heal and say "daemon be gone"? More knights compared to Mathilde being able to sword bigger and badder monsters that might show up? More knights against having in depth knowledge of the terrain and denizens of the areas we're passing through? Those are the sort of arguments that should be made, not "well they're worse than the other two knightly groups that have zero bearing on whether we can recruit them or not". That was the point I was trying to make.
@Shovern's point was that, with the two better Duckling cav groups, getting another cav group is redundant, making something like the Light College almost a better choice by default. Because we've all heard, at length, just how much the Light College has to bring to the table - and how would a worse version of something we already have beat out that?

Agree or disagree as you will, but Shovern's arguments were perfectly sensible.
 
...I'm sorry, but I am having an incredibly hard time understanding what literally any of this has to do with you know, the actual people that we would have to trade brettonian knights for. Because that's what I said. Compare it to the people who they will actually be competing with. Are you comparing them to the Light College? To swording or scouting or anything else that the AP could be spent on? No. You are directly comparing them to a group and set of AP that are unrelated. So no, you did not "literally do that in that quote". You did the exact opposite, and continued to do the exact opposite in your rebuttal. Like sure, yeah, the other knightly groups are better. That's nice, but we can have all three, so why does it matter if they're better? More knights is still more knights. But more knights compared to Light Wizards who can heal and say "daemon be gone"? More knights compared to Mathilde being able to sword bigger and badder monsters that might show up? More knights against having in depth knowledge of the terrain and denizens of the areas we're passing through? Those are the sort of arguments that should be made, not "well they're worse than the other two knightly groups that have zero bearing on whether we can recruit them or not". That was the point I was trying to make.

Ah sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were referring to competition in the "compared to the other Cav" Sense, not in the "What else we can get with AP" sense, my bad.

But like kfar says:

@Shovern's point was that, with the two better Duckling cav groups, getting another cav group is redundant, making something like the Light College almost a better choice by default. Because we've all heard, at length, just how much the Light College has to bring to the table - and how would a worse version of something we already have beat out that?

Agree or disagree as you will, but Shovern's arguments were perfectly sensible.

They have been discussed at length. Hell even you know about them.

But I'll write something up later giving my two cents on why the other AP sinks are better.
 
Sorry, I don't agree on the necessity of three scouting actions, and I've said this before.
Sure, I may likely be in a expedition-minority here again, but I really don't. The whole expedition is a more like a fast-and-light recon mission, we've now got a dragon to do aerial spotting, and we can advance-scout as actions as we go, if it's anything like the march to K8P.

But it's not. It's fast, but there isn't anything light about an armed convoy of 5 (or would it be 6 in the end?) steamwagons.

It's just that logistic concerns demand that dwarfs go even more hard on the quality end of the quality-quantity spectrum than they usually do.

It's actually semi-intentionally trying to do what dwarf reconquest expeditions usually unintentionally do.

Arrive, gather info, kill gribblies, establish a temporary foothold, get the survivors/artefacts but then instead of staying and getting ground to nothing in hell attrition, go back.

I would describe it as a heavy, smash and break, raid myself at the very least.
 
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As for why we should recruit Light Wizard in specific, I was going to quote which spells of their standard list would be useful and realized it's about three quarters of it. Here are the spells I think would be useful:
Spellbook of White Magic (Lore of Light)

Relatively Simple
Cleansing Glow: Cleans touched item, unspoils spoiled food or drink.
Dazzling Brightness: Dazzles creatures in a small area.
Clarity: Reduces mental penalties a touched character is suffering
Radiant Gaze: Shoots eye lasers.
Radiant Weapon: Touched weapon emits light, counts as magical, deals extra damage to Daemons for several minutes.

Moderately Complicated
Healing of Hysh: Heals the injuries of a touched creature.
Light of Purity: Cast this as you light a fire. As long as that fire burns, its light protects against disease.
Banish: Attempts to banish a nearby daemon back to the Realm of Chaos, or exorcise a possessed creature.
Radiant Sentinel: A ball of light floats around you and can parry for you.
Ill-bane: Cures poison or alleviates disease for several nearby creatures.

Fiendishly Complex
Light's Demand: Holds in place all Chaos creatures caught in a cone of light for several rounds. This spell is particularly hard to resist.
Blinding Light: Blinds creatures in a large area.
Daemonbane: Attempts to banish all daemons in a large area back to the Realm of Chaos.
Boon of Hysh: Cures and purifies touched creature of all injury, disease, poison and malady.
Pillar of Radiance: A massive column of burning light deals damage and may blind targets in a large area. This powerful spell disturbs the Aethyr such that all wizards for miles can sense it being cast, and the Hierophants frown on using it against anything but daemons.
Right from the start: unspoiled supplies are absolutely crucial for success. Glitterdust is neat for support, eye lasers ditto, Theraphy: The Spell is going to help any human hold out, and lastly straight up Holy Weapon enchant.

Moving up a tier we got Healing, a Fuck Nurgle spell, Banishment, Chamon Parry Orb, another Fuck Nurgle spell.

And lastly, we got Mass Hold Daemon (they roll with Disadvantage), Widened Glitterdust, Mass Banishment, super healing and what we can call a right and proper smite.

A freaking Perpetual that can cast their Purify Food and Drink and nothing else would be worth it, because one of they key reasons people fail at this thing are contaminated supplies.
 
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As for why we should recruit Light Wizard in specific, I was going to quote which spells of their standard list would be useful and realized it's about three quarters of it. Here are the spells I think would be useful:

Right from the start: unspoiled supplies are absolutely crucial for success. Glitterdust is neat for support, eye lasers ditto, Theraphy: The Spell is going to help any human hold out, and lastly straight up Holy Weapon enchant.

Moving up a tier we got Healing, a Fuck Nurgle spell, Banishment, Chamon Parry Orb, another Fuck Nurgle spell.

And lastly, we got Mass Hold Daemon (they roll with Disadvantage), Widened Glitterdust, Mass Banishment, super healing and what we can call a right and proper smite.

Yeah'll Ill throw some support for getting magisters from the light college for this, we desperately need more anti-daemon measures.

Instead of going to Brettonia for superfluous cavalry.
 
Well in that case we sort of can only train the basic moves for Branulhune style*. We can train them and hope to improve them in actually combat.

*Training by "cutting" though multiple sticks without cutting the first stick, but cutting the second stick and other variations on the theme. Also "quick drawing" our sword to be a the neck of a training dummy.
"Flicker" the sword's position so that it is in a place where a tiny bit of momentum is imparted to it by Mathilde pressing the hilt against the back of her hand, or her shoulder, or hip, or ankle or head ect... and then the sword impact a microsecond later against the target, and the precise amount of force is applied to allow the blade to cut through in the direction it is being moved in; up to a maximum force of "cannonball"
 
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Yeah'll Ill throw some support for getting magisters from the light college for this, we desperately need more anti-daemon measures.

Instead of going to Brettonia for superfluous cavalry.
I see the highly pious and elite heavy cavalry to be the cherry on the Damsel cake.

Quasi-divine multi-wind battle magic? Yes please. Humans they can buff means that their leverage in battle only increases, and dramatically at that.
 
Voting closed, writing will begin shortly.

A few things @BoneyM

If we get a griffon egg from a bounty or because we manage to find it, how much gold/CF would it cost to get us a trainer/caretaker for the griffon chick? If that is impossible would it be possible to hire an Amber Mage to do it and how much would cost (standard rates or something different)? And to have a reference, what would the standard bounty for a griffon egg be?

It'd be important to do most of the caretaking yourself to form a bond with it, because that would be the easiest way to get it to cooperate with you. You could bring in an Amber Mage for standard rates, or you could bring in a succession of animal trainers who would almost certainly become expensive fast as you would regularly have to pay for missing limbs or death benefits for their family. There is no 'standard bounty', griffins are not ensnared commonly enough for there to be norms.

You said that based on its previous research with the AV, Mathilde considered that AV would be useless in Potion/Alchemy... Does she believe that AV has potential (or at least potential for an interesting reaction) to magical subjects beyond her expertise like Ritual Magic, Wyrdstone Containment, or The Creation of Artificial Familiars?

Wyrdstone Containment, definitely not. Ritual Magic, probably not. Artificial Familiars, maybe.

It would be possible to hire a priest to check the reaction of the AV to divine magic?

There's already a way to test that with the Coin, and it doesn't piss a priest off because they suspect you're trying to reverse-engineer their miracles.

@BoneyM do these topics seem like they'd make for an interesting social turn with Belegar, next turn perhaps?

I'll mull them over between now and then.

I've wanted a divided loyalties visual novel since the romance arc began.

I'm serious on that, by the way. The dragon is the best option, but all of them are at least interesting, and I get melancholic when I consider all that never will be.

I think it could work, in principle. The characters certainly are strong enough to carry it, there's an interesting non-romance plot, and Games Workshop is actually somewhat free in selling their licence these days. You'd need some money for art assets, but on the whole it's about as cheap as a project like that can get. Biggest point would be whether you get the licence for a share of the profit, because I don't think raising an upfront cost is plausible.

I just suspect that Boney prefers to keep the quest as a quest and hobby, which is perfectly fair and understandable. But it doesn't stop me from dreaming.

If GW slid into my DMs I'd be very open to negotiations, but failing that unlikely scenario I'm happy with the current format. There seems to be a line between fanfiction and fan-VN where the latter is significantly more likely to attract DMCA smackdowns.

It might, in fact, be interesting to do a highly magic-studying focused turn in general. @BoneyM the College Rep in threadmark info has this bit in it:
*Getting a Journeyman/Magister/Lord Magister of a specific College/with a specific spell to come assist with a specific question/project/calamity
*2/5/10 per six months. This is assuming they have no interest in the topic and will receive none of the credit (or blame) for whatever it is you're trying to do.

So, question. Would "learning a Battle Magic spell, and experimenting and trying to invent some spells" could as "a specific project" if we were hiring a Lord Magister to help us? That is, if we had a turn that was heavily on learning MMM or attempting to create some Fog-based spells (which would be either normal magic or Battle Magic), could we get a Lord Magister to assist on that for just 10 Favor?

Yes. For a plan like that you could hire them in the turn vote itself instead of during the usual favour purchase phase, to prevent the whole 'soft lock' thing.

I am arguing that if the prep for the hellxpedition tired her out, she should be already tired while on it, not only after it.
Well... your argument is good enough that it's worth raising the @BoneyM signal for clarification.

If you use the overwork slots on the turn that you set off, the hellxpedition itself would be the overwork. The aftereffects of all those long nights and early mornings won't hit her until she gets back home.

This is the purpose of overwork: if there's an immobile deadline, you can cram a lot of work before it at the expense of being less able to perform after it. If the penalty was immediate, it would never be used, because it would make you worse at responding to the crisis that you need those extra actions to deal with.

@BoneyM Could we use smash together a combination of shadowknives/blades and our shadow's shadow tendrils to create a more damaging version of "Kraken's Pull" or that one light spell that makes a magic net.

Basically a bunch of shadow tentacles to wrap things up and cut at them all the while.

You've only got so much shadow to stretch out, and it'd be increasingly difficult to empower it as you extend it further. Reaching across a battlefield would be stupendously difficult, and extremely vulnerable to being interfered with.

The lack of an ability to spar with someone to develop Brahulhune style is inconvenient. @BoneyM would it be possible for us to commission a practice sword from Kragg that only has the Rune of the Unknown? It wouldn't be exactly like Branulhune so it shouldn't fall under repeat works, and if it's for the purpose of letting us perfect our use of it, I think he might at least consider the request?

A Runesmith's time is valuable, a Runelord's priceless. Developing a weapon that will never touch an enemy would be an incredibly tough sell.


This would be done using the generic enchantment action.
 
@Shovern's point was that, with the two better Duckling cav groups, getting another cav group is redundant, making something like the Light College almost a better choice by default. Because we've all heard, at length, just how much the Light College has to bring to the table - and how would a worse version of something we already have beat out that?

Agree or disagree as you will, but Shovern's arguments were perfectly sensible.
I mean, I guess... but I still don't see why the other cav needed to be brought up as if they were specifically in competition. It's not like Brettonian knights being worse than Knight of Taal somehow makes them even more worse than any of the other options. They still have their own role, their own value. It's kinda like being hungry and saying that because you already have a burger, you shouldn't want a sandwich over a pizza. If you're getting more food either way, compare them directly. Don't bring a third party into it.
 
I see the highly pious and elite heavy cavalry to be the cherry on the Damsel cake.

Quasi-divine multi-wind battle magic? Yes please. Humans they can buff means that their leverage in battle only increases, and dramatically at that.
Hrm. Your point about quasi-divine makes me worry; we backed off on recruiting battle priests because Boney said this:
Umgi Gods on a Dawi Expedition would be an immensely tough sell.
Would Damsels face the same issue? If so, as awesome as it would be, we shouldn't cause the internal issues.
 
If GW slid into my DMs I'd be very open to negotiations, but failing that unlikely scenario I'm happy with the current format. There seems to be a line between fanfiction and fan-VN where the latter is significantly more likely to attract DMCA smackdowns.
So... what you're saying is that the entire fanbase of this quest should go bug GW into making an offer? :V(Totally not serious, but it's a funny thought)
 
I reserve the right to say I told you so regarding the Ice Dragon, and no more. I'll happily accept the opposite if I'm wrong, mind.

There's already a way to test that with the Coin, and it doesn't piss a priest off because they suspect you're trying to reverse-engineer their miracles.
Well, that's higher than the history coin option in importance at least.
 
I'm actually kinda hoping this goes badly now.

Not so badly that we die or anything of course,

But bad enough to pop the hubris bubble before we get so bigheaded that the thread decides to go infiltrate Nagashizarr or piss off the Slann or something.
Sequence of events:

Thread goes: "Oh, lets tap the Colleges for wizard support"

Much agreement ensues.

BoneyM: "Journeymen are those who are most likely inclined to come, as magisters tend to have found their niche"

Thread: "Oh. OH!. Uh, ok.... (oh dear)"
----
Your analysis that lead you to calling other people in this thread "bigheaded" contains errors.
 
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I mean, I guess... but I still don't see why the other cav needed to be brought up as if they were specifically in competition. It's not like Brettonian knights being worse than Knight of Taal somehow makes them even more worse than any of the other options. They still have their own role, their own value. It's kinda like being hungry and saying that because you already have a burger, you shouldn't want a sandwich over a pizza. If you're getting more food either way, compare them directly. Don't bring a third party into it.

Bang for your buck. You can get two contingents of superior quality units for about the same price as one inferior contingent unit that performs largely the same niche, but worse. An army needs a variety of roles filled, and there's only so many resources to go towards filling those roles. Even if you can get all three, whether you should get all three is something to be considered.

I'm not sold either way yet, lack of enough information. But it would be helpful in swaying my opinion if you could elaborate on what unique qualities the Brettonian cavalry bring to the table.
 
@picklepikkl Can you please find that fog pathway spell proposal?

I'd be down to trying to hire someone to help us develop that spell after learning MMM. We could get a LM's subsidized assistance on this, making a spell to make hard terrain easier on the wagons is as directly helping the expedition as it gets.
"Are they Wizards or are they Priests?"

"Well, you see, it's not that-"

"Umgi foolishness, got it."
Funny as it is, it sounds okay?
 
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You've only got so much shadow to stretch out, and it'd be increasingly difficult to empower it as you extend it further. Reaching across a battlefield would be stupendously difficult, and extremely vulnerable to being interfered with.

Okay, so as it currently stands battle magic scale stuff is out, but could we make closer ranged stabby/slashy shadow tentacles?

...

Is there any potential in finding ways to create more shadow to work with?

Or in suborning other peoples shadow's for this sort of purpose?


or is that a no?
 
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@picklepikkl Can you please find that fog pathway spell proposal?

I'd be down to trying to hire someone to help us develop that spell after learning MMM. We could get a LM's subsidized assistance on this, making a spell to make hard terrain easier on the wagons is as directly helping the expedition as it gets.
Confirmation that it would be subsidized?

It's here; I think it would be a great thing to make in one of our flex slots, because making our tanks into all-terrain vehicles through the power of fog is definitely better than a killy custom battle magic spell would be.
 
I mean, I guess... but I still don't see why the other cav needed to be brought up as if they were specifically in competition. It's not like Brettonian knights being worse than Knight of Taal somehow makes them even more worse than any of the other options. They still have their own role, their own value. It's kinda like being hungry and saying that because you already have a burger, you shouldn't want a sandwich over a pizza. If you're getting more food either way, compare them directly. Don't bring a third party into it.
Suppose we already knew the results of our College Gacha recruitment, and by the machinations of Ranald it was 5 Light Magisters.

Given that we would already have access to a number of anti-Chaos Wizards, I'd hope we could agree that there would be less value in spending an AP on the Light College than if we did not have those Light Magisters - despite the fact that taking a Light College recruiting action now would not be mutually exclusive with the Colleges action we already took.

Similarly, if we can already gain access to the strategic and tactical benefits associated with cavalry, at a higher quality, using Duckling actions... it's not that the Brettonian Knights are made worse by the presence of the Winter Wolves, but there is less to be gained by bringing them in, because we'd have other people who could do what they would do.

If you think there are a significant number of specific, unique things that only the Brettonian Knights could do for the expedition, if you think the Brettonian Knights would do the Cavalry Things™ better than our other assets, or if you think we would need more cav on the expedition than the Duckling actions could provide alone, well, those are all fair arguments. But surely you can see why free cav makes not-free cav look less appealing, even when getting both is an option.

So to go back to your example, could you elaborate on why we should consider the Brettonians to be a nice sandwich to go with our burger, as opposed to, say, a mediocre veggie burger?
 
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Also, I'm open to suggestions for semi-date ideas for the upcoming votes for our four winning candidates:

The Ice Dragon of Karag Zilfin
Elector Countess Roswita van Hal
Baron Anton Kiesinger II
Chief Bombardier Oswald Oswaldson
 
The expedition itself costs some of Mathilde's actions for the turn, which is why we have a reduced number of free AP on the turn of departure in the first place. The expedition itself represent the actions that push things from Work to Overwork, and again:

That is not an ambiguous statement.

The whole point of the new Overwork system is to allow Mathilde to go above and beyond for a turn... and then to deal with the consequences after the turn's work is done. So just as I'd find it suspicious if taking a Sylvania campaign Overwork action imposed penalties during the the same turn's Sylvania campaign, I'd find it suspicious if taking an Overwork action during the expedition turn affected things during the expedition turn, because Overwork incurs no penalties on the turn it is taken.

And again, I do not think it's narratively dubious that Mathilde would be tired out by the expedition to Hell.

Well, I was wrong, and you were right on the money on how it would work.

This post might be superfluous, but I kinda want to make it a habit for myself to own up to my mistakes in posting.
 
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