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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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picklepikkl said:
Now we've got a book we can pull out if anyone starts asking questions! Wins all around.
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Yes and it's actually a lie, that some of the colleges sliced the definition of daemon finely enough to go "Well acktshully" is sort of irrelevant it's especially a lie when some of the thread are salivating at the chance of binding an apparition that's bloody khorne related.

Like christ after all the bloody push back I get for even talking about things dhar adjacent or related when I'm not for dhar experimentation, one update later the thread explodes with "Hey cool lets bind daemons" oh and you can't use them for anything non-combat related because I'm sorry you'd be insane to trust any enchantments to bound daemons that will always be trying to break their binding.
 
BoneyM said:
Trying to bind an Apparition that hungers for your Wind would be ill-advised. I'll probably write something up for a threadmark later but for now, there's a list of Apparitions here:

warhammerfantasy.fandom.com

Apparition

Seen only by those with Witchsight, Apparitions, also known as Harbingers, are as real as Daemons and as real as the Dark Gods themselves. Their existence is a window into the very nature of Chaos. Without the existence of Mankind, Chaos would have little power, since Chaos and its minions are...
warhammerfantasy.fandom.com warhammerfantasy.fandom.com
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Soo, I guess any attempt to bind asps to get them to bring us Vitae would require that we bring in another wizard to do any binding.
 
Aranfan said:
This is blatant sophistry. It is obviously blatant ass covering sophistry even IC. Up until just fucking now, the wisdom's asp has always been refereed to as a daemon. And any attempt to make a self-updating mmapp or a sevirscope ran into "do you mean daemon" gif.
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It's not just sophistry, there's legitimately multiple competing definitions of Daemon. It's already the case that outside of extreme academic comics a Daemon isn't JUST "a warp entity" because nobody wants a definition of Daemons where gods are daemons.
 
reignonyrparade said:
It's not just sophistry, there's legitimately multiple competing definitions of Daemon. It's already the case that outside of extreme academic comics a Daemon isn't JUST "a warp entity" because nobody wants a definition of Daemons where gods are daemons.
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This is nonsense, humanity doesn't consider the Gods to be warp beings, the religious orders think the deities they worship reside in some other place that isn't the warp if they even know about the warp/ayther and think the chaos gods exist in a wholly seperate location which is hell. That daemons come from hell is well accepted however.

Nobody wants a definition where gods are daemons, that's why they found a self consistent way to square that circle, the empires standard descriptive term for a warp entity is daemon.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
This is nonsense, humanity doesn't consider the Gods to be warp beings, the religious orders think the deities they worship reside in some other place that isn't the warp if they even know about the warp/ayther and think the chaos gods exist in a wholly seperate location which is hell. That daemons come from hell is well accepted however.

Nobody wants a definition where gods are daemons, that's why they found a self consistent way to square that circle, the empires standard descriptive term for a warp entity is daemon.
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Except the gods are warp entities, ergo not all warp entities are daemons.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
This is nonsense, humanity doesn't consider the Gods to be warp beings, the religious orders think the deities they worship reside in some other place that isn't the warp if they even know about the warp/ayther and think the chaos gods exist in a wholly seperate location which is hell. That daemons come from hell is well accepted however.

Nobody wants a definition where gods are daemons, that's why they found a self consistent way to square that circle, the empires standard descriptive term for a warp entity is daemon.
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So the standard imperial doesn't even know the warp exists but has a strong commitment to the idea that there must be one word for all things from the warp?
 
More seriously: folks, we have yet to investigate seviroscopes at all and most of the questions have been met with "try it and find out." The belief that we'd need a mind in order to make it was a belief wholly originated within the thread, which I have then seen people repeat as though it were canon. It's nothing that's been confirmed in the quest or by Word of Boney. The same goes for the self-updating map; yeah, there are obvious ways to make it more easily if you've got a magical AI on call, but there are also obvious ways to do so without magical AI.

Mostly, the non-combat application I'm most bummed about is the loss of an auto-teleporting "Ward save," since that did seem like something which really would genuinely need a mind behind it. But so it goes. Seviroscope isn't dead, MMAPP room isn't dead, we've got a technique for creating a very badass signature Battle Magic spell if that's a thing we want to do down the line. I'm pretty pleased.

As @Jyn Ryvia put it, we failed to get a boost to our seviroscope/cartographer efforts. That is not the same thing as suffering a setback.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Sad news: Not really applicable to sevirscope/map room.
Good news: Still neat as hell and likely to give us an iconic battle magic with our name on it.
Best news: We got to meet Gehenna and she's as cool as I thought she would be!
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So Daemon weapons are a thing.
This implies that if bound apparitions are not Daemons then Apparitionweapons may also be a thing.

I'm not sure how much advantage there would be to that, I think Boney mentioned that the only possible enchantment that could be used to create other enchantments would be involve a bound Daemon, but I think that would only refer to using Daemons that already have skill in enchantment, or at least capacity for the relevant fields of sorcery.

Do apparitions cast spells or make enchantments?
What do Daemonweapons actually use the bound Daemon for?
And can we use a bound apparition for a similar function while also making the things different enough in aesthetic that people looking at it don't immediately think 'this is a bound Daemon in an enchantment'?
How would we even figure out the process without being corrupted? Look for necromancy lore about binding souls into things?
 
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Human spellcasters look a lot like daemons too, especially once they start picking up arcane marks. I'm sure that things like Cadaeth, whose soul occupies (or is) a pocket dimension, would also contest an overly broad definition of daemon.

Functionally, there are probably two things that matter:
  • Will it get us burned at the stake?
  • Will it open us up to the Four?
For a Wisdom's Asp, the answer to both of those questions is "no", so it's not a daemon. Done.
 
ninjafish said:
Except the gods are warp entities, ergo not all warp entities are daemons.
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The gods are daemons. Human priests are wrong. It's just that the gods are also very consistent in their themes, also for the record if you try and bind Ranald to an item to serve as a locus intellect for an enchantment I reckon he'd kill you every bit as much as any apparition would try to.
Saidoro said:
So the standard imperial doesn't even know the warp exists but has a strong commitment to the idea that there must be one word for all things from the warp?
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They have a very strong commitment to anything animal/ghost like tied to magic, which is that it's a daemon.
 
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So uh...theres a lot of talk about tailoring an entity of genuine public belief to produce the desired outcome.

We already have one.
The Dusk Rider of Stirland spread without any intervention, is genuinely believed in by a significant population and hunts down evildoers/gribblies with a massive sword.

Surprisingly we even fit entirely into the costume, except its taller.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
The gods are daemons. Human priests are wrong. It's just that the gods are also very consistent in their themes, also for the record if you try and bind Ranald to an item to serve as a locus intellect for an enchantment I reckon he'd kill you every bit as much as any apparition would try to.
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Prescriptivists-delende-este. If the common usage of daemon doesn't include gods, then any definition of daemons that includes gods is the wrong definition of daemon, and it's the responsibility of anyone who wants to use that definition to come up with a term that does encompass that definition.
 
reignonyrparade said:
It's not just sophistry, there's legitimately multiple competing definitions of Daemon. It's already the case that outside of extreme academic comics a Daemon isn't JUST "a warp entity" because nobody wants a definition of Daemons where gods are daemons.
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The gods aren't daemons. But the difference between god and daemon is a substantive one around how how they interact with the collective unconscious and how big their souls are and the effects of that scale. There are real substantive distinctions between god and daemon that go into the nature of how they survive and operate.

The difference between an "apparition" and a "daemon" is political agenda.


Like, if Khorne is a human, then a random bloodletter is a cell. That's the scale gods operate on compared to daemons. A wisdom's asp is like, one particular single-celled organism.
 
reignonyrparade said:
Prescriptivists-delende-este. If the common usage of daemon doesn't include gods, then any definition of daemons that includes gods is the wrong definition of daemon, and it's the responsibility of anyone who wants to use that definition to come up with a term that does encompass that definition.
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The people that state the definition of daemons doesn't fit gods are wrong though? It does fit they're just in denial about the fundamental facts of what gods are. Any way this portion of discussion is sort of irrelevant as it doesn't change anything the important part is this.

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reignonyrparade said:
That sounds like a substantive difference into the nature of how they survive and operate to me though?
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Edited response: Gods are large enough to take in worship and gain power from it, greater daemons can do the same thing to a much lesser extent. The difference between a god and a daemon is one of scale.


If apparitions weren't daemons why are people looking at examples of explicit daemon smithing and chaos based weapons with bound daemons in them and then going Hey there must be apparition weapons if there are daemon weapons, because they've grasped the key fact.

That Daemons and apparitions are of the same fundamental nature, just because there are unaligned daemons not tied to a specific chaos god changes nothing on a deeper level. Sure it might be technically true, but that technicality is a legal technicallity not a facet of actual reality.

that said Feldman told us to claim sole credit for deriving anything from this, so obviously the other colleges of magic aren't aware that the Gold order are using apparitions for battle magic and likely wouldn't be okay with it. So we aren't on nearly as firm ground to make use of it as some people think.
 
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What do you think Mathilde, is an apparition a daemon?

BoneyM said:
"...What's your worst?"

"What?" But she knows what you meant. It was a common game among young wizards. What's your worst miscast? "My, um, my hand, it cramped up into a sort of claw shape. I couldn't move it for..." she pauses as she sees the look you give her. "For about three minutes..."

"I summoned a daemon," you say, and you're grimly pleased at the expression on her face. "At the age of sixteen. Wisdom's Asp. ...
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SuperSonicSound said:
If apparitions weren't daemons why are people looking at examples of explicit daemon smithing and chaos based weapons with bound daemons in them and then going Hey there must be apparition weapons if there are daemon weapons, because they've grasped the key fact.
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You'll note that people also realized that binding apparitions to create intelligent items was a lot like binding human souls to create necromantic constructs.
 
Alliterate said:
From what I read, Apparitons are (more explicitly than other Warp denizens) the projections of Wind-wielding individuals. They are created in their particular image because people- people who can bend unreality to affect reality- believe them to be just so.

Is that enough to create an affiliation? Belief that the Blood Knight answers to the Blood God? Or the flies to Nurgle?
...Now that's a question.
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Apparently not, given that the Ambers are probably using the flies for their Crows.

LightLan said:
Isn't the staff of Volans said to give +2 Magic?
I doubt we get anything that good.
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I believe it's +4 Magic, IIRC.

SuperSonicSound said:
The gods are daemons. Human priests are wrong. It's just that the gods are also very consistent in their themes, also for the record if you try and bind Ranald to an item to serve as a locus intellect for an enchantment I reckon he'd kill you every bit as much as any apparition would try to.
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Apparently we have to stop worshipping Ranald, guys, it's interacting with Daemons.
 
wrecksalot said:
In our defense, that was before we aquired our nifty new book.
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Our nifty new book that slices the definition legally but almost definitely not in any real way. I mean we know what the chaos cultists think of Apparitions they call them daemons as well.

Deathbybunnies said:
Apparently we have to stop worshipping Ranald, guys, it's interacting with Daemons.
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Nah I'm more against binding daemons, worshipping Ranald is fine regardless, but if any one suggests binding him to an item or to make into a combat servitor that I'm wholly against.
 
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Ericwinter said:
...And people wonder why humans are so scary. Even with magic messing up your worldview, it takes a special kind of someone to literally chase down what's essentially a Daemon, if not quite, and bind them to your will.
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Ericwinter said:
Does make me wonder what drove the first Gehenna to do this particular thing, though. Like, there's plenty of ways to achieve that awesome, but what made them say, "You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to hunt down and tie a not-demon to my soul." When there hadn't been any previous examples that such a thing was even possible, let alone a good idea? Was, like, a friend of theirs in danger, and they just did the only thing they could? Was there some other research going on that led them to that path? I doubt we'll ever find out, but I bet it would make a good story.
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Well...its what got humans dogs to begin with?
Wolves were essentially demons to early humanity.

But now they're Good Boys.
BoneyM said:
What kind of 'artificial animating force' do you have in mind? Anything that uses any kind of magic wouldn't work.
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Sounds a bit like the ritual to create an Incarnate where a human sacrifice is combined with buttloads of magic to create an elemental of the magic.

Though I would not advise drowning people in AV to find out.
And anyone I'd be willing to drown in AV I'd really rather not have them become the core of a magical entity with a small storm of magic's worth of energy inside...
Thats the rub I guess.
BoneyM said:
Mathilde cannot summon up enough imagination to equal a Chaos God or an entire race.
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If printing was cheaper and literacy more common, perhaps tabloid publishing could work.
Alliterate said:
Dark hounds are described in the plural-

while The Rider in Red is singular, and a 'personification' of a Chaos God besides.


That suggests to me the Rider in Red is substantially more dangerous than a Hound, and quite probably substantially & conceptually less suited to being bound into a pack or group.

One Rider in Dusk.
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Should not be a concern, seeing as the Ambers use the Bleak Swarm to power their spell to summon a murder of crows and the other name for the Bleak Swarm are the Eyes of Nurgle.

A Name could be just that
 
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