- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Oh. I didn't know that there was more to his soul than those five runes.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Or get Anton to ask some innocent, ingenue questions.
'Soul' will have to do to describe whatever it is, since Teclisean theory doesn't even acknowledge the possibility of elementals.
Kragg embodies the Dwarf worst traits as much as he carry the strength and the talents of the Dwarf people, just as Thorek is able to bare more strength and the talents that overcome the sheer stubborn mindset that is both a gift and a burden to the Dwarfs.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- She/Her
@BoneyM learning the very basics/semi-public bits of runecraft was floated as a possibility for runesmith favour. Could we use something like that to develop a Standard Notation of, at least Mathilde's, witchsight to Runesmith magic sensing?
I feel that a way to communicate what both parties see might be more useful then trying to give each other their senses. Like how people with no common language can both know and communicate using Standard Notation mathimatics as a shared thrid language.
I feel that a way to communicate what both parties see might be more useful then trying to give each other their senses. Like how people with no common language can both know and communicate using Standard Notation mathimatics as a shared thrid language.
I think it was 'you can, as long as you are willing to spend 30 years in-game as an apprentice.'
It might be possible, but it would mean she would have to swear to never share any of it, or anything she discovers using it, with anyone but Runesmiths and any Apprentices she might take.
And, yeah. Dwarven education isn't what you'd call swift.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
He might actually be talking about the more recent idea of learning Arcane Khazalid. That would probably be a good idea as well, actually, if only so that we're some help if and when we manage to collaborate.
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
I can't help but to chuckle over the thought that they'd intentionally make the stature not reach the ceiling in order to show that she was indeed a bit short.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- She/Her
She.
and no I hadn't thought of that I was just reflecting on @Rafin's post about magic seeing goggles.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Right, sorry, I keep missing that. I also wasn't paying attention to who exactly the person I was quoting had quoted, but that's still my bad. Sorry.
Also, fair enough. Still think we should learn Arcane Khazalid though. It would be really useful, and Mathilde learning magical languages is cool.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Yet another reason to learn! It's also the only direct descendant of the Old Ones language that we have access to, which is pretty big.
@BoneyM how long exactly would it take to learn, assuming we went for that? I vaguely recall languages being something like four to six actions, less if fully immersed, but would this be any different due to having teachers, or the teachers being dwarves?
SakSak
Unbound
- Location
- The Cold Wastes of the North
Reminder: Kragg's major criticism about Thorek in one of the earlier K8P updates was that Thorek was trying to be a politician and a runesmith at once, not giving fully into either.
Which also ties interestingly into Kragg's philosophy about the secrets of Runes; It doesn't matter what knowledge is lost with his own death, he will flat out refuse to teach anyone he doesn't consider worthy of the art. And that is fine for Kragg, since in his hyperfocused specialization he has achieved such skill and experience (and age) that he can just ignore any opinions to contrary with no personal repercussions.
Where indeed it seems Thorek has a slightly more flexible mindset (for several centuries old dwarf). Which he probably needs, since he hasn't chosen to become so purely focused on only and exclusive the art of runes. Which likely also explains why he might be or straight up legitiately is a worse runesmith than Kragg in terms of absolute skill even when accounting for the age difference: Thorek, for better or worse, has chosen to use time that could be spent on understanding runes to instead meddle on other matters. Which has its own advantages, but I fully understand how someone like Kragg - who is entirely commited to the purity of his art to a degree even above other runesmiths - sees it instead as faffing about. Nor is he focused on becoming a military leader, or a diplomat or whatnot exclusively either; he could become quite good at anything he chose to be, but he refuses to fully commit to anything in particular.
Hell, theorizing further, it might be that Kragg sees Thorek as having given up. I mean, if the goal is to preserve (and best scenario, rediscover) old secrets of the runesmithing arts, Kragg is straight up more capable. He just won't teach those secrets forwards without a worthy apprentice, and lack of a worthy apprentice is to him no reason to lower the standards; it is merely yet another sign of a decaying dwarf civilization. Essentially, lamentable but apparently inevitable since worthy students just aren't to be found.
Whereas Thorek is faffing about with things other dwarves could do, wasting time on pursuits that aren't about the ancestors and ancient runelore. And if you don't care about those things exclusively above all else, why in the name of gods become a runesmith at all?
Which one is one the whole better for dwarven society in the long term? Probably the path of Thorek. Which one is more likely to bring back a faint shadow of glimpse of the splendor and heights of the gold age dawi civilization ? Probably Kragg, actually, provided he lives long enough.
And with his death, the secrets would be lost again.
Which also ties interestingly into Kragg's philosophy about the secrets of Runes; It doesn't matter what knowledge is lost with his own death, he will flat out refuse to teach anyone he doesn't consider worthy of the art. And that is fine for Kragg, since in his hyperfocused specialization he has achieved such skill and experience (and age) that he can just ignore any opinions to contrary with no personal repercussions.
Where indeed it seems Thorek has a slightly more flexible mindset (for several centuries old dwarf). Which he probably needs, since he hasn't chosen to become so purely focused on only and exclusive the art of runes. Which likely also explains why he might be or straight up legitiately is a worse runesmith than Kragg in terms of absolute skill even when accounting for the age difference: Thorek, for better or worse, has chosen to use time that could be spent on understanding runes to instead meddle on other matters. Which has its own advantages, but I fully understand how someone like Kragg - who is entirely commited to the purity of his art to a degree even above other runesmiths - sees it instead as faffing about. Nor is he focused on becoming a military leader, or a diplomat or whatnot exclusively either; he could become quite good at anything he chose to be, but he refuses to fully commit to anything in particular.
Hell, theorizing further, it might be that Kragg sees Thorek as having given up. I mean, if the goal is to preserve (and best scenario, rediscover) old secrets of the runesmithing arts, Kragg is straight up more capable. He just won't teach those secrets forwards without a worthy apprentice, and lack of a worthy apprentice is to him no reason to lower the standards; it is merely yet another sign of a decaying dwarf civilization. Essentially, lamentable but apparently inevitable since worthy students just aren't to be found.
Whereas Thorek is faffing about with things other dwarves could do, wasting time on pursuits that aren't about the ancestors and ancient runelore. And if you don't care about those things exclusively above all else, why in the name of gods become a runesmith at all?
Which one is one the whole better for dwarven society in the long term? Probably the path of Thorek. Which one is more likely to bring back a faint shadow of glimpse of the splendor and heights of the gold age dawi civilization ? Probably Kragg, actually, provided he lives long enough.
And with his death, the secrets would be lost again.
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
I like this sentence since you could consider practicing Runesmithing as a sign of worship. If we extend the metaphor then to Kragg, Thorek isn't just a failure as a runesmith but also a failure as a priest, which is something a lot more serious.
- Location
- Utrecht
Genitor, i think
Edit: Never mind, it's also "biological father".
Latin nouns are are still gendered, so "genetrix" would be the feminine version, so definitely not neutral, and also too much biology involved.
But no... Parenarch ... assuming you are deriving from Parenti (relatives) is a portmanteau that is literally "Arch-relative"
Patriarch and Matriarch have more weight to them, with the cultural baggage of Mater- and Pater-
If you want to write about the patriarchs & matriarchs as a group, I would suggest coming up with a title for the group, rather than a gender neutral word.
Last edited:
So to summarize Kragg is the better Runesmith, the better dwarf by the tradtions of Karaz Ankor. the trouble is those very traditions are a major part of why Karaz Ankor is dying. Kragg's failings are not his own they are those of his society which he has taken on by being an exemplar for good and for ill.
I'd go with Gonarch. From gonéas (parent) + archein (rule) and stylised to Monarch.
Problem is that Patriarch does not (etymologically) imply male ruler. As it comes from word for family, and not word for father.
If both male and female rulers were called Patrarch as it should be, there will be no problem with gender neutral word.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Lord Magister are technically a form of nobility, right? Barons or something? Presumably you could call the Patriarchs whatever the next step up is in equivalency, with Wizard attacheD, of course. Not that it's be legally accurate, I don't think, but in-thread it should work.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
I'd still say Thorek is better for the option to bring back a glimmer of the heights of the dawi civilisation, if Kragg wants an apprentice worthy of him he should go out and teach some one to be worthy of him. Exceptional people are made not born that way with a few key exceptions, especially for the dwarves whose cultural and racial identity is built around be enduring (Yes I realise that's contentious in a setting where people are born into having magical power and it's not entirely up to them whether they can learn to control it.)
Kragg will never find an apprentice worthy if he isn't willing to put the effort into training a person to fit that mould.
Well the larger issue is also that it's very highly likely that Kragg is the worse Dwarf if you go by the prospective of the runesmiths of old, note that Runesmiths in the past were quite happy to work with the Elves to bring their craft to new heights and shared their secrets to create new projects together.
The modern Karaz-Ankor is basically a degenerated grudge riddled ptsd ridden basket case that practices massive institutional paranoia because their closest allies are viewed to have betrayed them (with some truth) and then the entire world basically took its best shot at annihilating them out right.
I reckon the golden age dwarves prior to the war of vengeance would look at the modern Karaz-Ankor and recoil in horror at how they work with people that are their allies.
Last edited:
- Location
- USA
As far as I recall, van Horstmann was never Supreme Patriarch. He was only Patriarch of the Light College. You're thinking of Balthazar Gelt of the Gold College, the Supreme Patriarch during Karl Franz's reign.
- Location
- Germany
I would argue that one runeshmith and his knowledge (that is lost with his death) is not bringing back any kind of anything, at least not seen in the light of a whole civilisation. It seems to me that thoreks way with many apprentices would bring change and a Chance for new heights. Kragg when he teaches nobody, brings only a bunch of Monuments and artifacts, great to have and certainly of use, but if nobody knows how to make more only a stopgap. One that will be lost in time the same way many great dwarven works already are.
Last edited:
- Location
- Brazil
@picklepikkl You asked about human uses for AV, right? One of the simplest and most game changing ones I can think of would be giving the very, very best battle wizards a vial so they can smash it and temporarily acquire Storm of Magic-levels of Winds to cast Cataclysm-tier spells, while the enemy is restricted to the normal stuff.
Would probably want someone standing beside the caster just to counter and dispel attempts, too. An unopposed, out-of-season Cataclysm spell can trivially turn an entire battle.
Would probably want someone standing beside the caster just to counter and dispel attempts, too. An unopposed, out-of-season Cataclysm spell can trivially turn an entire battle.
In fact, the real truth is that Kragg will never find an apprentice worthy in his current mindset. Period. He never has to define what worthy actually is, but I bet if you put him in the Mindripper and pulled it out of him by force, you'd fine a vague image that literally contradicts itself in places.