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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Ericwinter said:
So basically you want to build, instead of research. I could get behind that.
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I mean, soon, yeah. But honestly I think research is better from a 'looking at relationships simultaneously' perspective right now, and that's kinda my priority for Mathilde. I don't think elfcation impacts that too much; it's a three month commitment, and if we get an invite back it's likely something that'll be a few years coming.

But yes: building in strong preference to searching the world for even more rabbitholes.

Candesce said:
There's a reason asking the Dawi of K8P to build, maintain, and defend a Grand Library is such an attractive boon, yes.
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Indeed!

Hmm. When and if we get to the view on that, I think I'm going to write an omake about something like the library of Alexandria burning.

I kinda like the idea of phrasing it in those terms too-

"I ask that the dwarves under your crown build, maintain, and defend a library- that it be open to all scholars of good intent and who will contribute to it's growth. May it someday grow to contain all that is known in this world."

Simple! But it implies a lot. First, a slow start and a long commitment with organic growth built in, rather than an immediate coin sink. Second, that this is a refuge for scholars and mages, but allows judgement calls to screen out those who intend harm or free-riding.

Third, intended scale: all that is known. This makes a claim on the Karak for the *eventual* size and resources needed, while simultaneously giving the dwarves marker for when it's finished that should fit in well with their approach to anything being good enough. Last, it explicitly seperated the openness to scholars from the physical boon of a library- the dwarves won't be responsible for a university, but one can still grow up organically if the scholars attracted by the books make an effort.

And the 'good intent' clause is a lever to bring elves or other strange types in, but also an explicit law allowing the dwarf king to expel anyone he believes to be ill-intentioned towards the crown and it's allies.

But mostly I really liked the idea and imagery of 'fortress library' that your 'build, maintain, and defend' phrasing conjured up.
 
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Getting them to build us something we look after already costs a lot of Favour. Getting them to do it sounds like we'll need to reconquer a few more Karaks. We'd need to earn the sort of favours that can't ever be repaid becuase we're asking them to do something forever.

Saying that I'm thinking the Chaos Dwarf book might give us something towards that if we can give them some way to hurt the Chaos Dwarfs enough. They really hate those guys, like possibly more than anyone else. Secondly, given that their greatest weapons are Anvils of Doom and they need Thunder Mountain to make them. Well I think I know where we should go next if we want to start racking up favours they can't repay. If we get there first maybe we could liberate a few of the things they might have left behind when they had to abandon it as well? Getting them to build a Library there would also force them to defend it forever even if Ironhammer bites it and the new guy is an arse.
 
Alexus said:
Getting them to build us something we look after already costs a lot of Favour. Getting them to do it sounds like we'll need to reconquer a few more Karaks. We'd need to earn the sort of favours that can't ever be repaid becuase we're asking them to do something forever.

Saying that I'm thinking the Chaos Dwarf book might give us something towards that if we can give them some way to hurt the Chaos Dwarfs enough. They really hate those guys, like possibly more than anyone else. Secondly, given that their greatest weapons are Anvils of Doom and they need Thunder Mountain to make them. Well I think I know where we should go next if we want to start racking up favours they can't repay. If we get there first maybe we could liberate a few of the things they might have left behind when they had to abandon it as well? Getting them to build a Library there would also force them to defend it forever even if Ironhammer bites it and the new guy is an arse.
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We have a transcendent boon from Belegar that we can use to ask for whatever we want, and per WoG he'd go to the point of breaking the Karak (and himself) to fulfil it if necessary.
 
NSMS said:
We have a transcendent boon from Belegar that we can use to ask for whatever we want, and per WoG he'd go to the point of breaking the Karak (and himself) to fulfil it if necessary.
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Conveniently, "create and defend this library" is decidedly limited in its ability to break the Karak, given that defending the library requires the Karak to continue to exist.
 
Glau said:
Hmm. When and if we get to the view on that, I think I'm going to write an omake about something like the library of Alexandria burning.
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Going to be irritated here and point out the Library of Alexandria declined over many years as scholars were driven away and it began to lack funding, and membership and it was not burned down and completely destroyed.
 
Glau said:
So, out of curiosity, what is the usual process by which the research we do is turned into advantage for the empire and it's allies? There's kinda the feeling that the papers we write and the knowledge we rediscover is looked at, approved, and added to the libraries for future reference.
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I really don't see where that view is coming from. It's not like the papers are just filed away in some dusty stack once we send them in. They are clearly passed around college(s) and read by Mathilde's peers. Those peers might choose to build off what she has learned, like the Jade and Amber colleges tried with the Matrix, or the Bright Wizard who simplified the MAP spell. Alternatively, the paper might be forwarded to the relevant individuals (like how the Dragon Ogre paper was sent to the generals of the empire). She also returned to Altdorf to give a lecture about the Waaagh paper, spreading the information to an international audience.

I think you are also overstating the impact the loss of those libraries has on society. It sucks for scholarship, but it's no worse than what humanity has gone through IRL, except we didn't have dwarves, or elves, or the grand library of Verena. It's a setback, not the death knell of civilization.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Going to be irritated here and point out the Library of Alexandria declined over many years as scholars were driven away and it began to lack funding, and membership and it was not burned down and completely destroyed.
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But as a metaphor for the bronze age crash, where like 8 of 9 advanced bronze age empires declined so far they lost writing and architecture, it's a pretty good one. And there's a strong arguement to be made that the same type of loss of knowledge is what is keeping the empire at a lesser tech level now that it was a thousand years ago.

Edit: do I have that right? Steam tanks were like 1000 years before quest?
 
Glau said:
But as a metaphor for the bronze age crash, where like 8 of 9 advanced bronze age empires declined so far they lost writing and architecture, it's a pretty good one. And there's a strong arguement to be made that the same type of loss of knowledge is what is keeping the empire at a lesser tech level now that it was a thousand years ago.

Edit: do I have that right? Steam tanks were like 1000 years before quest?
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Except that the Library of Alexandria was founded a thousand years after the Bronze Age. And while I see the argument that the Empire has technological problems due to the repeated destruction of knowledge, I'm not sure I agree that it's even a thing that happens. I suspect their problems with technological advancement are a combination of social problems (the Empire will collapse if we reveal these technologies, better destroy all knowledge of their existence), political problems (we invented a better bow, but fuck everyone else, we're going to keep it for ourselves) and possible physical principles changing due to the influence of Chaos, although that last one is less likely.

Not quite a thousand. About five hundred or so.
 
If I recall correctly, the issue with steam tanks is that they were the works of one genius that was way ahead of his time. There are too few, and they are too valuable to properly disassemble for study. I don't think the Empire has suffered a loss of any significant tech.
 
Mr Apollo said:
I don't think the Empire has suffered a loss of any significant tech.
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The Empire rarely loses anything we'd consider significant because they can never get it in the first place. They've been stuck in our equivalent of the 16-17th century for almost a Millennia. Every time people start building up better guns or the middle class starts to exist again there's a giant civil war or beastmen destroy everything or chaos destroys everything or the witch hunters destroy everything. The advances for hell cannon and the colleges have been the first serious step forward for the empires technology since before the age of the three emperors.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Going to be irritated here and point out the Library of Alexandria declined over many years as scholars were driven away and it began to lack funding, and membership and it was not burned down and completely destroyed.
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thankyouthankyouthankyou
Alexus said:
he advances for hell cannon and the colleges have been the first serious step forward for the empires technology since before the age of the three emperors.
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Er, do you mean the Hellstorm Rockets there? The Hellcannon is something rather different.

As far as I can tell, in general canon sources, the Empire has been in a general technological stasis for seemingly centuries. The main source of this seems to be the old Mordheim game, which basically had adventurers having the same level of gunpowder weaponry as modern Warhammer, except it's set around 2000 IC.

At the same time, GW didn't set out to build a fully-consistent and realistic universe (if they did, they failed that one right out of the gate) they set out to make a wargame. Which, understandably, is what they focused on.

In regards to quest canon, things may well be less stasis-y.


Jyn Ryvia said:
so that we will have to go looking for stuff to meet our quota.
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Jyn Ryvia said:
I'm talking about papers we can send in to prove we are keeping busy.
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As others have said, we're the most influential advisor to the the king of a Karak. There's exactly 9 of those in the world, and we're a very big reason why that number isn't 8.

The Grey Order is not going to remove us from our post.

If we were, like, the advisor to a minor noble, they might think we were wasting our talents and suggest we move on to bigger things. But Elector Counts, Dwarf Kings? That's power and influence right there. That's not something you throw away. Mathilde just doing her job is more than enough reason for her to stay. The Grey Order cares about making sure the Empire, and Order in general, is doing well. As long as what's good for Karak 8 Peaks is good for the Empire, Mathilde is in a very good position.
 
Alexus said:
Getting them to build us something we look after already costs a lot of Favour. Getting them to do it sounds like we'll need to reconquer a few more Karaks. We'd need to earn the sort of favours that can't ever be repaid becuase we're asking them to do something forever.
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The Library Boon Vote is one of the most developed Transcendental Boon vote idea out there, and a commitment of the Karak to defend and advance knowledge through a Great Library (with emphasis on defense) is very in character for Mathilde to ask, based on what we've seen of her in the recent years.

Now, there are opponents who think it's a waste of the Transcendental Boon, but I think there are very few Boons that fit the following criteria:

1. What doesn't break the Karak politically or economically and may actually yield long run benefits to the Karak.
2. Makes a change in the world for the better.
3. Is aligned with Mathilde's values, agendas, desires, hobbies, activities, roles and life experiences and life goals (Mathilde is a Warrior-Scholar).
4. Ideally isn't a one off big-ticket item with a giant up front cost, but something that is continual in nature.
5. Arguably Is contingent on the continual well being of the Karak, both economically and security-wise.

Yes, I know some people have proposed things such as a Tech Transfer to the Empire - for example, by creating a Gyrocopter Network for the Empire on the Eight Peak's Dime (Ie: Basically the Eight Peaks will create a Gyrocarriage Airline servicing the major cities of the Empire, and connect them with the Eight Peaks, Azul and hopefully Barak Var), that can fit those five criteria one way or another. I do hope to see more ideas of that magnitude, that makes sense for Mathilde's character.

And yes, I know that there are people that might disagree with one or more of those five criteria, but oddly, not many people have been able to vocalize more specifically what they are looking for in a Transcendental Boon then that is incompatible with these five criteria.

TLDR: You want any favors that last forever? That's what the Transcendental Boon could buy you. Forever. You could rewrite the unwritten constitution of the Eight Peaks in perpetuity with such a Boon.

That being said, we are several turns away from the Transcendental Boon issue being reopened, but I do hope that at least, it allows people to dare to think big.
 
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Alexus said:
The Empire rarely loses anything we'd consider significant because they can never get it in the first place. They've been stuck in our equivalent of the 16-17th century for almost a Millennia. Every time people start building up better guns or the middle class starts to exist again there's a giant civil war or beastmen destroy everything or chaos destroys everything or the witch hunters destroy everything. The advances for hell cannon and the colleges have been the first serious step forward for the empires technology since before the age of the three emperors.
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No. We actually have a lot of information about the 0 to 2535 IC spread over several sourcebooks and it shows a steady progression from iron or bronze age in ~0 IC through "medivle" tech in 1000-2000 IC to the modern empire after the Great War against Chaos. The warhammer world doesn't really have tech stasis the way a lot of settings do. Even Bretonnia and the Elves have advanced their technology and magic over the centuries.
 
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Glau said:
So, out of curiosity, what is the usual process by which the research we do is turned into advantage for the empire and it's allies? There's kinda the feeling that the papers we write and the knowledge we rediscover is looked at, approved, and added to the libraries for future reference.
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Well, we have to assume that the Grey College has an entire wing dedicated to people who meticulously study the papers that are sent in, along with possible edits in case the information needs to be disseminated to people without the required security clearances, since The Grey College seems to be the unholy spawn of The University of Cambridge, MI6 and Bletchley Park.
I'm more than certain that they've learnt by now that even an offhand comment about something, someone, or someplace, can have ridiculous strategic value once applied.

If you're considering the safekeeping of such papers, it wouldn't surprise me if they keep the master copy in storage and produce an exact copy of that before it even hits the editing stage.

I would be surprised if the Grey College doesn't have the biggest and most extensive library of all the colleges, if not the Empire. In retrospect, I'm surprised that Mathilde didn't send the Cathayan books she acquired back to the colleges to be copied.
 
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Asheram said:
I would be surprised if the Grey College doesn't have the biggest and most extensive library of all the colleges, if not the Empire.
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I suspect all the colleges have similarly sized libraries. They're all just full of very different things. And I'd very very surprised if the University of Altdorf didn't have the largest library in the Empire. Not only is it a primarily academic institution (which means it'll collect texts) it is far older than any of the Colleges and probably has a much larger student pool.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
I suspect all the colleges have similarly sized libraries. They're all just full of very different things. And I'd very very surprised if the University of Altdorf didn't have the largest library in the Empire. Not only is it a primarily academic institution (which means it'll collect texts) it is far older than any of the Colleges and probably has a much larger student pool.
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While I agree with you that the University of Altdorf is the largest one, I've just got a hunch that the Grey College has copies of everything that the University of Altdorf has as originals. Any good intelligence bureau should be aware of the merits of redundancy.
 
Asheram said:
While I agree with you that the University of Altdorf is the largest one, I've just got a hunch that the Grey College has copies of everything that the University of Altdorf has as originals. Any good intelligence bureau should be aware of the merits of redundancy.
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Libraries take maintenance, and the Grey College is almost certainly a smaller organization than the University of Altdorf. And with a lot more focus on things other than books and learning.
 
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Asheram said:
While I agree with you that the University of Altdorf is the largest one, I've just got a hunch that the Grey College has copies of everything that the University of Altdorf has as originals. Any good intelligence bureau should be aware of the merits of redundancy.
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Maybe, but it really depends. I doubt the Grey College is particularly interested in the thousands of student papers, or an analysis of politics done five hundred years ago or an introductory primer on biology. A lot of it will simply be stuff the College doesn't care about. Anything that's particularly rare or is of interest to them, sure one of the Colleges will probably have a copy, but not every original piece that they have.
 
Obviously the solution to the library debate is to infiltrate every other imperial organisation and see if their libraries are larger than the Grey's. And in case they are, we steal from them until they aren't. Until then we just lie the size of our libraries.

It is the Ranald approved way of solving disputes.
 
Didn't we get a strong of occasions in the text where large book-burnings took place, both for the universities and the colleges? Invasions, civil strife, cold winters under seige, imperial purges?

I'm not real sold on the idea that anything like modern standards and tradecraft are present in this world, so I guess I assume that professional archivists, space, budget, and duplication constraints are MUCH larger than assumed.

IE, you have a restricted book. Who copies it, and how many copies do you want in existence? The more resilient knowledge is to destruction, the harder it is to control. And Empires tend to bet on control.
 
Glau said:
Didn't we get a strong of occasions in the text where large book-burnings took place, both for the universities and the colleges? Invasions, civil strife, cold winters under seige, imperial purges?

I'm not real sold on the idea that anything like modern standards and tradecraft are present in this world, so I guess I assume that professional archivists, space, budget, and duplication constraints are MUCH larger than assumed.

IE, you have a restricted book. Who copies it, and how many copies do you want in existence? The more resilient knowledge is to destruction, the harder it is to control. And Empires tend to bet on control.
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Yep. During the trip to Karaz-a-Karak:
BoneyM said:
Row after innumerable row of bookshelves of the Archives of the Karaz Ankor bridge the terse inventory of the Dammaz Kron with the exhaustive detail that would allow the Dwarves to know that vengeance has been done, and the room is a hive of busy activity, as a dozen venerable Longbeards each act as the center of their own swarms of younger disciples. As the High King orders the retrieval of the books on the Siege and Fall of Karak Eight Peaks, your eyes widen as you run your eyes over perfectly-preserved tomes of recorded history.

The Light Order do their best, but the Colleges have only been around for a fraction of the Empire's length, and before that a hundred tragedies each shaved away a record of history. The Great Library of Mordheim died with the city, the Sieges of Altdorf each resulted in a freezing populace burning books for heat, the Imperial Library suffered attrition every time the capital moved and was stolen back and forth a dozen times during the Age of the Three Emperors, and Dieter IV sold a good deal of what little survived to reach him to anyone willing to pay. And if that wasn't enough of a reason for his soul to be damned, when he sold Marienburg its independence, it took the Great Library of Verena with it, and ever since the self-righteous custodians have delighted in denying entry to citizens of the Empire. The Vaults of the Great Cathedral of Sigmar are purged every time a more conservative Grand Theogonist takes office, and there's Witch Hunters out there who consider literacy to be compelling evidence of witchcraft, and even when some poor scholar escapes the pyre it's not always guaranteed their books will.

A hundred hundred roadblocks between the average human and their past, but since the first founding of Karaz-a-Karak, every single event to ever befall the Dwarves has been carefully recorded and remains right here, carefully preserved by rune and artifice.
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Big shoutout to Dieter IV for being just the absolute worst.
 
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Mathilde herself torched a bunch of books not immediately related to the "College of Necromancy" after decapitating Alkharad. Granted, it was the best thing to do at the time, but that just means it was the least bad action, not an actually good one.
 
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