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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Rafin said:
The vast majority of those are nothing for Mathilde personally. I kind of dislike the idea of using a boon like this purely for Empire stuff. And I don't know if Belegar can handle us using the boon to help him, as gifting the whole thing to the dragon just to prevent a battle would be.
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On the flipside, Mathilde has been shown multiple times as a big picture person.

The Boon that would make most narrative sense would combine Mathilde's personal wishes with greater strategic goals, something that benefits both Empire/Colleges and Dwarfs.
 
Horium said:
On the flipside, Mathilde has been shown multiple times as a big picture person.

The Boon that would make most narrative sense would combine Mathilde's personal wishes with greater strategic goals, something that benefits both Empire/Colleges and Dwarfs.
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Therein lies the problem: what is Mathilde's personal wish. I don't think people would disagree with what you have said, but I bet that there are ten different readings of Mathilde's personal wishes out there.
 
NuclearConsensus said:
Well, Mathilde does make heavy use of the Karak's gyrocopters to commute to and from the Empire, plus there's K-a-K's own air fleet. Maybe that could serve as inspiration?
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Yes, but does transport and comms corresponds to Mathilde's personal wishes? If she were more active in the EIC, or her info network was advanced enough that she realized just how big coms and transport is for the Empire strategically speaking, perhaps a better Transport and Comms boon makes narragive sense. Like I said, Mathilde surrendered more involvement in the EIC so I personally such doors have closed for now, though they might be reopened, especially if our info network goes online.
 
Andmeuths said:
Therein lies the problem: what is Mathilde's personal wish. I don't think people would disagree with what you have said, but I bet that there are ten different readings of Mathilde's personal wishes out there.
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And that's what we (voterbase) will have to decide when the boon request comes around.

I do think that we should be guided more by Mathilde's past actions and/or traits rather than OoC preferences, but that's just my opinion.
 
NuclearConsensus said:
Well, Mathilde does make heavy use of the Karak's gyrocopters to commute to and from the Empire, plus there's K-a-K's own air fleet. Maybe that could serve as inspiration?
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We've never had Mathilde actually care about the benefits of widespread rapid transportation as a concept. Also, this boon would massively nerf K8P's own air fleet for a long time. Every gyrocopter produced/maintained for the Empire on Belegar's dime is a gyrocopter not being produced/maintained in his own hangars.
 
Horium said:
I do think that we should be guided more by Mathilde's past actions and/or traits rather than OoC preferences, but that's just my opinion.
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Windherder, Surreptious Intervention and Xeno-affinity

The first lends to the Research Institution, the second may well be forged as an argument for a Great Library to lay seeds that echoes into the future long after she's gone. The third lends itself to Mathilde taking up wandering (as she introduced herself to Belegar as a wanderer seeking her purpose) and getting that Dreadnought.

None of this suggests that better Transport and Comms is one of Mathilde's wishes, based on her past actions and current traits. Maybe Bureaucrat, but I've not seen Beauraucat being narratively used to bring Transport and Comms issues for the Empire into Mathilde's headspace. If she was heavily involved in the EIC, I can see it entering Mathilde's current mental processes. I can see Wilhemina suggesting this, I cannot see Mathilde doing so.

This suggests: if you want a Transport and Comms as something we sink this irreplaceable Boon on, vote for more EIC actions to narratively sell this problem.


Shard said:
Whenever I hear Book I hear Bok.
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Without a Knowledge-Based boon, our chances of making any headway with Bok is probably zero baring multiple 100s and several turns dedicated to Bok research actions. AP starvation is one giant bitch.


Edit: One more thing: for those who think a Research Institute to increase our chances of viably pursuing massive Moonshots (through better and more efficient research) can be accomplished with Gold and Favor and working on our Duckling Club

1. Show me what options are available now or in future turns that allow us to get started on this.
2. Convince me that the AP, GC and Favor cost of such an endeavor on our own as a private individual and the upkeep is affordable for Mathilde as a single Magister, or within the resources of Mathilde as Loremaster.
3. Convince me that what we can build is good enough compared to a Transcendental Boon Research Institute - the best ever.
3.5 Convince me that this would fund other world-changing projects outside Mathilde's immediate expertise, such as Ratling Gun reverse engineering or Repeater improvements.
4. Convince me that what we build can narratively make a difference to the world, beyond Mathilde's death.

I know this is a high bar to ask for, but when I see counter-arguments such as we can create a good enough Research Institute without the Transcendental boon, these are the four reservations I have towards this assertion. And I think I am justified setting this high bar because it's a Transcendental Institution we are talking about here. Infact, I am confident that even a Library+Research Institute combo Boon will be superior in addressing these four barriers, than anything Mathilde can ever create on her own.

And don't just take my word for it that a transcendental boon spread over a Library and Research Combo would be superior to anything that Mathilde can ever create, never mind a Transcendental Boon on solely more and better research alone.

BoneyM said:
if you absolutely want to have a Library and a Research Institute, the best path for you would be the combo.
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Andmeuths said:
Windherder, Surreptious Intervention and Xeno-affinity

The first lends to the Research Institution, the second may well be forged as an argument for a Great Library to lay seeds that echoes into the future long after she's gone. The third lends itself to Mathilde taking up wandering (as she introduced herself to Belegar as a wanderer seeking her purpose) and getting that Dreadnought.

None of this suggests that better Transport and Comms is one of Mathilde's wishes, based on her past actions and current traits. Maybe Bureaucrat, but I've not seen Beauraucat being narratively used to bring Transport and Comms issues for the Empire into Mathilde's headspace. If she was heavily involved in the EIC, I can see it entering Mathilde's current mental processes. I can see Wilhemina suggesting this, I cannot see Mathilde doing so.

This suggests: if you want a Transport and Comms as something we sink this irreplaceable Boon on, vote for more EIC actions to narratively sell this problem.




Without a Knowledge-Based boon, our chances of making any headway with Bok is probably zero baring multiple 100s and several turns dedicated to Bok research actions. AP starvation is one giant bitch.
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Erm. All traits and actions, not just most recent ones, should be considered imho.

Agreed on the transport/communications in general, though it can be argued that it has some narrative weight by framing it as Mathilde realizing how big of a deal is being able to travel half a continent in a day, how absolutely priviliged she is by having that option and how much of an extreme impact superior mobility already had in her past and even Karak's recent history (e.g. gathering additional reinforcements via Mathilde's shadowsteed) and how much good it could do.
 
BoneyM said:
1. Gold
2. Money
3. War Machines (Small)
4. War Machine (Large)
5. B O O K
6. mystery box
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Oh thank god.
We have enough Complicated issues already. Also I look forward to speaking with the Bursar again. She was nice.


Back to the discussion:
A dreadnought is of very limited utility. Could we instead get an airborne aircraft carrier? The Dwarfs do still have airships, despite the helium(?) shortage and gyrocopters have been immensely useful.
If we do intend to go adventuring I would like to do it in style and comfort.

The Old World Airmail idea is tempting. Better communications would lead to more cooperation.

The problem with trying to argue that a research institute would reduce out backlog is that only Wizards can work on most of our projects. If we weren't willing to hand our stuff over to the Colleges why would we hand them over to the institute?

As we are delaying I would like to float the idea of using it to fund an expedition. Plenty of places worth poking and most are easier to poke/loot with some backup.

Shipper idea: Name his daughter after us. Subclause: Have a daughter and do it soon.
 
Angelform said:
A dreadnought is of very limited utility. Could we instead get an airborne aircraft carrier? The Dwarfs do still have airships, despite the helium(?) shortage and gyrocopters have been immensely useful.
If we do intend to go adventuring I would like to do it in style and comfort.
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Let's boil down the Dreadnought to a High Concept generalized form:

I want a mobile Fortress that can take me anywhere in the World.

If an airborne warship to sail over the land was viable (the Gas Forge of Mogrim is down, so it isn't) and affordable for the Eight Peaks, and if the appeal of the Dreadnought I've laid out (where on Malus is Mathilde Santiago) was enough to convince me to vote for the Dreadnought over other options, I will also vote for that Mobile Warship. If a Mobile Fortress that can take me anywhere in the world was persuasive for the Dreadnought, it would be just as persuasive for the Airborne Aircraft Carrier, indeed more so.

@BoneyM Because the boon discussion is likely to take place over months, is this a proper usage of the idea of keeping to high concepts in discussions: distill a specific actual idea right into what it does in a nutshell. A dreadnought is a Mobile fort that takes you anywhere in the World. A Research Institute of any kind brings more, efficient and better research. A Gyrocopter Network is an improvement to the Comms and Transport Infrastructure of the Empire. So on and so forth.

The way I see it, the big advantage of keeping to high concepts, is the fact that arguments for two boons that share the same high concept will largely look the same.
 
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BoneyM said:
Francesco Caravello of Clan Undumgi
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Did he already get officially crowned Thane of Karag Nar? Or does this just mean that all Undumgi are considered one clan in Dawi law, with Caravello being it's clan head that happens to be a viceroy to King Belegar?

Also, I hope you tell us what the other results of that roll would have been some time after it doesn't contain any spoilers anymore.
 
Ok just saw this:
Angelform said:
The problem with trying to argue that a research institute would reduce out backlog is that only Wizards can work on most of our projects. If we weren't willing to hand our stuff over to the Colleges why would we hand them over to the institute?

As we are delaying I would like to float the idea of using it to fund an expedition. Plenty of places worth poking and most are easier to poke/loot with some backup.
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Why waste a Transcendental Boon on one expedition. Why not simply create an entire Explorer's Guild under Mathilde's ownership and Belegar's patronage? That is the scale of what a Transcendant, as opposed to a Major Boon, gives you. An Explorer's Guild, just like the Dwarves of the World of Warcraft. Of course, the concept of this is: I want more (repeatable) opportunities to loot good shit through awesome adventures, which then automatically faces the objection: we have too much good shit to process, so this is just going to go onto the pile, which you probably need to address to build any traction. Think Bigger.

As for your objection to the Research Institute - if we are the leader of this institution. the discoveries of said institute will accrue to us. Obviously, we'd be drawing resources from said institute (an army of lab assistants, research assistants, scribes, a fellow Scholar underling, test material acquisition teams) to us for our personal project (which means we can get far more done, flat out), but it means that the credit goes to us as the Principal Investigator even if we had a whole research group under our command. Just like the credit reconquering half the Eight Peaks in a day goes to Thane Mathilde, as the commander in chief in charge of strategic decisions on that fateful day. Just as most of the credit for the Queekish Lexicon is going to go to Loremaster Mathilde, even if good Maximillian was utterly vital in our efforts to decipher Queekish, and good Johann was instrumental in our efforts to secure research material. There is no reason to think that this pre-existing arrangement changes when we are the founder/chairwoman of a Research Institute using our status to give our personal projects top billing for money/influence/manpower if we so choose (we might for example, instead direct the institute to pour resources into Johann or Gotri's research if we want).

It kind of defeats the purpose of more and better research if it ends up altering the arrangements we currently have for leading Project teams, rather than making it even more favorable to us. The difference between the Institute and the College is that we are as much the master of this Institute, as much as we own the EIC, and quite likely even more so.
 
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Andmeuths said:
Let's boil down the Dreadnought to a High Concept generalized form:

I want a mobile Fortress that can take me anywhere in the World.

If an airborne warship to sail over the land was viable (the Gas Forge of Mogrim is down, so it isn't) and affordable for the Eight Peaks, and if the appeal of the Dreadnought I've laid out (where on Malus is Mathilde Santiago) was enough to convince me to vote for the Dreadnought over other options, I will also vote for that Mobile Warship. If a Mobile Fortress that can take me anywhere in the world was persuasive for the Dreadnought, it would be just as persuasive for the Airborne Aircraft Carrier, indeed more so.

@BoneyM Because the boon discussion is likely to take place over months, is this a proper usage of the idea of keeping to high concepts in discussions: distill a specific actual idea right into what it does in a nutshell. A dreadnought is a Mobile fort that takes you anywhere in the World. A Research Institute of any kind brings more, efficient and better research. A Gyrocopter Network is an improvement to the Comms and Transport Infrastructure of the Empire. So on and so forth.

The way I see it, the big advantage of keeping to high concepts, is the fact that arguments for two boons that share the same high concept will largely look the same.
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This would be preferable. Things tend to get ugly when people start talking about the fine details of what they want, and other people who don't want that start scanning those details for attack vectors.

Rafin said:
Did he already get officially crowned Thane of Karag Nar? Or does this just mean that all Undumgi are considered one clan in Dawi law, with Caravello being it's clan head that happens to be a viceroy to King Belegar?
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Undumgi aren't quite a Clan, but that's the closest term for what they are in Khazalid. Instead of having their own Clan Head, they're under the authority of King Belegar, who's delegated it to Francesco as Viceroy.
 
Andmeuths said:
Yes, but does transport and comms corresponds to Mathilde's personal wishes? If she were more active in the EIC, or her info network was advanced enough that she realized just how big coms and transport is for the Empire strategically speaking, perhaps a better Transport and Comms boon makes narragive sense. Like I said, Mathilde surrendered more involvement in the EIC so I personally such doors have closed for now, though they might be reopened, especially if our info network goes online.
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I'm not really invested in the whole transport and comms thing myself—I prefer the research-y Boon proposals—but I'd like to contest your point that Mathilde needs to be more active in the EIC to realize how better transport and comms would be beneficial to the Empire.

Take a look at the beginning of Belegar's expedition for example, where Mathilde's swift delivery of news via shadowhorse to the nearby Holds allowed them to send more aid to Belegar in a timely manner. Without those troops, it's doubtful that the retaking could have been as successful as it was. Go back further, to Mathilde's time as a Stirlandian advisor, where her shadowhorsing all over the place earned her the name of Dammerlichtreiter. The best example being the take down of the Stirlandian League, where Mathilde even outran the League's own couriers.

Being able to quickly move over long distances is a big thing, and being able to do that without having to rely on magic is even more so, since not everyone is able to use magic.
 
NuclearConsensus said:
Take a look at the beginning of Belegar's expedition for example, where Mathilde's swift delivery of news via shadowhorse to the nearby Holds allowed them to send more aid to Belegar in a timely manner. Without those troops, it's doubtful that the retaking could have been as successful as it was. Go back further, to Mathilde's time as a Stirlandian advisor, where her shadowhorsing all over the place earned her the name of Dammerlichtreiter. The best example being the take down of the Stirlandian League, where Mathilde even outran the League's own couriers.
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True, but this has been many years ago, so I find it hard to believe it's in Mathilde's current headspace, especially since the Lesson drawn from it seemed to be Warrior of Fog - the Fog of War is powerful weapon, rather than Comms and Transport won the day. I can also point to the logistics of the Expedition, though the more likely lesson wasn't Transport and Comms could be improved, but rather proper logistics preparations are vital for any campaign. Neither experience, nor the traits that came about from reflecting on these many experiences creates a strong reason for Mathilde to care so much about Comms and Transport she has revolutionary plans for the Empire's transport infrastructure that she want to use her boons in, within believable character.

Honestly, I'd say that visiting and intervening with the new Canal, and getting more involved in the EIC on a consistent basis for the next several turns, is far more likely to make Mathilde come to the insight that she'd rather value Comms and Transport within the time frame of the delay over say, Research, or Exploration for that matter.
 
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[X] [BOON] Save it until the Karak is wealthy enough to afford my ambition.
[X] [BOON] I have no idea what to spend it on. Put the matter aside for now.
 
Andmeuths said:
Windherder, Surreptious Intervention and Xeno-affinity

The first lends to the Research Institution, the second may well be forged as an argument for a Great Library to lay seeds that echoes into the future long after she's gone. The third lends itself to Mathilde taking up wandering (as she introduced herself to Belegar as a wanderer seeking her purpose) and getting that Dreadnought.
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I think Windherder and Xeno-affinity both could be argued to lead to research and/or library boon.
Because research needs a source of reference material, sure the grand library is not an immediate boost to research, but it will have huge dividents over time.
Xeno-affinity and Surreptitious Intervention both work for Dreadnaught because while it is most obviously useful for exploration, a way to get almost anywhere we want can help in starting the kind if things surreptitious intervention is good for (and sometimes a giant honking warship is surreptitious enough).
 
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