SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's kind of hard to argue for or against that when the story really doesn't make it clear what Homura even did. :/Homura did nothing wrong.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Squints at the avatar.
- Location
- Greece
Dhar is not enough to do that though, it feels as if its actually counterproductive to do that unless you pull a Nagash and start using it right after you have formulated a plan and gathered all your cards. And I am half convinced Nagash is the only person whose mind can still think intelligently even on Dhar, and mayeb that is just because of his elixir. Original generation vampires may also be intelligent enough to work with, but every other vampire we have seen, even the genre savvy one, commit arrogant blunders.
No, if we seek god-cleaving powers, we must retain full control of our faculties and act calculated, gathering power and advances and use them to gather more power and advances, like an avalanche, till we reach the point of cleaving gods. If Dhar is needed when we formulate our method of ascension, well, maybe with the right precautions (cough our own ulgu vampire elixir cough) I'll agree, but overall, it is so much of a counterproductive liability that I'd rather exhaust every other option first.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
I've always been half convinced the reason that Dhar didn't degrade Nagash's mental capacity was that he was already stark raving bonkers before he was working with it, so there was no real difference before and after.
I will note that the Skaven dhar users weren't stupid/arrogant. Or at least, any stupider/more arrogant than a typical Skaven, so, you know, something to note.
- Location
- Greece
Their whole society is stark raving mad. Maybe the reason Skaven are so... Skaven, isn't even the Horned Rat. Maybe its the warpstone.
Now, Qrech may be playing us, but what if warpstone detox makes every Skaven capable of caring for a pet? Or a friend?
Edit: also, all Skaven are arrogant, selfish and backstaby by species definition, according to canon. What if this isn't cultural or biological but rather the result of warpstone?
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
If it was the warpstone, it wouldn't explain skavenslaves, who AFAIK don't get any. The stuff is reserved for higher ups. And horrific devices to break the fabric of reality.
- Location
- Greece
"don't get any"? Warpstone is radioactive, like nuclear materials. Being in proximity of warpstone is enough to trickle , and almost every Skaven is constantly in the proximity of Skaven who DO have warpstone and devices that DO use warpstone.
Moreover, most slaves either do as Skaven do and ascend the ranks, cultural style, or die. How do we know what the average slave thinks, then?
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
It isn't actually. It might mess with magic/reality interactions in someway but it certianly isn't radioactive. And whether being in it's presence alone affects beings is unknown, although based off the trolls over in Wyr, it wouldn't appear so, as only the trolls licking the stuff were affected.
The fact that they had a Spartacus figure (inventively called Skabbicus) who led a slave rebellion which failed when the Council of 13 offered a pardon for any who desisted and pointed out their leader. Apparently more than 10,000 slaves immediately pointed him out, then watched as he was killed and eaten. And of course the Council then reneged on the agreement and had the slaves executed anyway.
- Location
- Mexico
Those Dawi lives were repaid tenfold by the selflessness and bravery of the Mors Skaven that protected the Karak from wave after wave of red fang orcs during the Night of Fogs and the subsequent Battle of long shadows.
The heroism of the Skavenwall shall be remembered for as long as the Karak lasts.
- Location
- Mexico
It has been pointed out that the behaviour of Skaven follows the expected behaviour of rats with overpopulation in a confined environment.
Logicaly, it's a combination of factors, including an evil deity, overpopulation, Warpstone use, cultural inertia and baggage from their origin story.
Regarding their origin, I suspect that the Skaven speak (yes-yes) comes from an inherent mental duality, as the rats of Kavzar consumed the very souls of those they devoured, explaining their self hatred.
- Location
- Greece
Ah, but you are refering to immediate benefits/effects. Being on the proximity of some warpstone is one thing, living in a society drenched in it is another. And, I should add, that even if its not the warpstone, big Skaven cities are still drenched in Dhar due to their dhar sorceries, so it makes sense for slaves in these cities to be as dhar drenched as warpstone users (even if we discount the fact that, given the Skaven numbers, 10.000 is actually not necessarilly even a majority of the slaves in a single city. )
Well, yeah, it makes sense that it is a combination of factors, it always is.
But they are a sapient species, not rats, so there must be something deeper and more soul corrupting for their backstabbing and pride to be so ubiquitous. Even the dual substance doesn't explain it, most Skaven were born Skaven.
Moreover, Skaven aren't swell even in the short times where overpopulation isn't the case.
There is something deeper here as the most major factor than culture, biology or insticts, imho, as the species clearly has variance and free will.
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- Location
- Spain
Homura did nothing wrong.
I disagree, betraying your best friend, usurp her position as Goddess, and trapping the whole universe in a Lotus-Eater Machine is kind of bad...
But I think that those "Bad" actions are much more than compensated if you take into account that she gave her friends and acquaintances a happy ending to all their struggles, finally put an end for good to something as horrible as the Magical Girl Cycle, and most important of all, she made sure that the Incubators would be kept in check in the most karmically satisfying way possible...
I will not argue that Homura did all of this because of selfish reasons, but I don´t know why so many people dismiss that the consequences of her selfish actions were, all things considered, much more good than bad, and paint her as a soulless monster...
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
That's not really the point though. The point is that it proves that warpstone doesn't affect by proximity, which was the question.
There are a bunch of places that have to be drenched in dhar in societies like the Empire or Kislev though, and those don't seem to instantly become backstabbing murderers.
10,000 might not be the extent of the slaves, but it very well might all of those who joined the rebellion, or who were actually in a position where they could point out their leader.
Warhammer species seem to be less variable than real life. Most of them tend towards the stereotypes that exist (most halflings love food, and are cheerful, most elves are arrogant, most dwarves are stubborn etc.) so it's possible it's a function of the setting, rather than the Skaven in particular (perhaps the Winds/Aethyr means that what other people think of a species becomes more true over time? It's an interesting concept if nothing else).
Doesn't mean it's the dhar/warpstone. It could easily be a combined function of culture, inertia, the Horned Rat, and the relatively short lives of Skaven.
- Location
- Greece
That may have been your point but it sure as hell wasn't mine. My point was about dhar from the beggining, warpstone was just a part of that argument, so if I think of new arguments that support my original, dhar defined position, I'll add them.
Which places are you referring to? Sylvania? Cuz it certainly seemed that the people that lived there were corrupted (cowardly, resigned, vampire lovers), while the people that left were... much lesso. Sure, they didn't corrupt to the extend of the Skaven just from ambient dhar, but Skaven have other factors guiding their corruption, which I never disputed. In short, vampires and human adaptiveness guided the dhar corruption of Sylvania into resignation and loyalty to darker forces, while Horned Rat designed biology and cultural norms guided Skaven corruption into being the whole package of cowardliness, insanity and megalomania, rather than just one part of it.
Fair enough on the slaves, this whole thing is just speculation all in all.
Even on other species, we have seen, on BoneyM's version of WHF at least, nonstuborn dwarfs (that young firebrand technician whose name I forget) and a Halfling that is stern and cannot make pie. Moreover, even in canon, there are dwarf outcasts and even outlaws who are different and a whole organization of halflings that is based on civil rights. Plus, one of the most famous and influential elves, the one who taught magic to humanity, was humble enough to even claim that humans may be superior to elves, although that may well have been the result of nurture rather than nature. Yet Skaven hold no such exception? Either some mighty bullshit is going on to clinch everything together in a way that makes stuff more unescapable for Skaven, or this is grimderp, and while it may well be grimderp in canon, I trust BoneyM to justify the unjustifiable when it comes to games workshop grimderp.
I never disputed that other factors played a role, I merely stated that dhar either plays the most majjor role or., alternatively, that it ensures things stay as is without change.
Shorthand for Hardcore Precure?
They say there's a fine line between madness and genius, and Nagash was undoubtably a genius.
It also probably helped that it only mattered until he turned himself into a lich or whatever, at which point he would have been a vampire, but better, and could use Dhar without degradation like they can.
Not without degradation. Without the magically enforced corruption, but there's still the non-magical corruption that comes from holding a really shit mindset. It's pretty much the situation we are already in with the belt, and Boney explicitly said that the mindset required to use dhar would still affect us even with the belt.
Since Nagash and pretty much every vampire (certainly the dhar using ones) are megalomaniac bastards, I rather believe they're not immune to it either.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
I think thats less of "they became insane because they used dhar" and more of "they were so insane they used dhar" kind of thing tbh.
Part of it yes, but not for all. That could actually be studied, because non-mages can become vampires, and I'm rather certain they gain the ability to cast at that point.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Don't all vampires (par possibly that Sigmar-blessed lady) have a whirling torrent of Dhar inside their soul? If Dhar alone is enough to turn you into a rampant asshole, I don't think we'd have any vampires capable of laying low.
Like approximately 60% of the Shallya priestesses.
- Pronouns
- It/They
this is actually true.
Shallya only exists because lahmians wanted an organization that was super easy for them to infiltrate and get information from.
This mean's everyone who has ever had thier life saved by a shallyan owes thier life to neferata btw.
Truly vampires are a superior and benevolent breed of humanity, to create such a gentle and pacifist institution that nevertheless stands in firm defiance of the forces of chaos!
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
To my understanding, Genevieve predates the whole Dhar Vortex thing, so it's debatable if she's canon at all in later editions. Boney can do whatever he wants, of course.
I'm pretty happy taking that as one of those "This is from an in-universe source that is lying out of its ass".
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
I mean, we've already seen Sigmar support a vampire in-quest by pretty blatantly ensuring that the general out to kill her died, so a Sigmar-blessed vampire wouldn't be entirely out of place.
Who knows, maybe we can meet this Genevieve one day and try to seduce her to a more worthy God.
- Location
- Greece
Maybe he also stopped Ranald for helping... Joke's on him though, he couldn't stop our bombardment.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Unlikely. While, as the chief God, it is possible that
Like, the only reason I can think of for why Ranald wouldn't make it absolutely clear that Sigmar was the one preventing him from saving Abel's life is if Ranald is literally incapable of telling the truth. And if that's the case, then oh boy, does that change quite a few of Ranald's actions in this Quest.
