- Location
- Earth
Well that was his mistake. He used math when Ranald was involved. You have to use Amusement there.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
Thorgrim wasn't exactly unreasonable when he declined to send any reinforcements, but we should remember that this is also The Grudgebearer, who eagerly would have sent a bunch of slayers by gyrocopter for their chance of dying gloriously.
The major issue is the letter he sent, which was as diplomatic as a thrown knife.
The major issue is the letter he sent, which was as diplomatic as a thrown knife.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
See? This is proof that BoneyM infects the voterbase with black magic!
And since the voterbase decides Mathilde's thought patterns, that means she's already influenced by dark magic and there will therefore not be any noticeable difference in her personality once we start using Dhar!
I spent five seconds thinking about this, and spending any more proved impossible since the logic is
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Omegahugger... you are the black magic infecting us. We've just been doing our damndest to fight back against your temptation.
It's been tough. How can you say no to a face like that? With great difficulty, that's how.
I imagine that AlphaHugger is the one voice in Necromancer!Mathilde NegaQuest that calls for turning away from the dark paths and seeking redemption.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Hmm, that does make sense, but would they be supporting redemption through Ranald or Sigmar? Our Hugger tends to rag on them both pretty equally, and while I could consider the merits of either god and how they might be presented to a Necromancer-based thread, Omega also goes back and forth between using actual somewhat logical--if still foolish--arguments, and things like... well, like eating the dead lover they want to resurrect in the first place. Turning Sigmarite would probably be a completely radical stance in the NegaQuest, but Ranald could be a possible sell, so... Hey, @Omegahugger , you want to help me out? Which god do you think your Nega self would support more, Ranald or Sigmar?
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Sure, if we were a civilization with the advanced machine tools to build jezzails, that process could be transferred.
As it is, its looking at an item produced by that more advanced civilization and trying to figure out the techniques behind it. That's absurd.
"Well we can see they made this super precise bit of gearage" doesn't allow you to reconstruct the lathe that created it just by admiring the end product. The end product is just a piece of metal.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
The very idea that any version of me would not seek redemption via the power of love (preferably featuring the handsome not-a-necromancer-fan Van Hal) is so wrong it is borderline slander!
But if I had to pick between
The correct answer is of course that I would grasp at any chance of redemption, just like I reach for every single possibility of ressurecting Abel.
Chamon will let you do precisely that, though? Tale of Metal is utter bullshit, but it exists.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Ah, now I get it. Where even faith fails to warm our cold, dead heart, it would be the Witch Hunter, doggedly following our every step and thwarting all our plans, who claims us in the end, his passion and dedication to the cause like a beacon in the sea of madness and darkness. A worthy enemy and star-crossed lover with whom Mathilde's fate twines at every turn until he dies, dramatically and quite by accident when the meddling Ranald suddenly fumbles a divine roll. This, of course, has the hilarious side effect of being proof for most players that redemption was never worth it in the first place and he must have done it on purpose, while poor AlphaHugger swears up and down that it wasn't his fault, and if we would only give Ranald a chance to prove it by offering up a prayer...
It's a damn shame I hate writing omakes for any story not my own, and I don't have the formatting knowledge to properly create a Negaverse post. That would be a really tempting premise, otherwise.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Well Ericsummer, if only you'd voted to move its phylactery from the cold, dank Drakenhof castle basement to our Thunder Mountain volcano lair, the ambient temperature of our heart wouldn't be such a problem, would it?
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Hey, Drakenfhof is traditional, okay? And do you really want our Phylactery near all those Skaven and pesky dwarves who have us marked down in their Book of Grudges for destroying a few measly armies? It's not my fault Ranald killed off our dedicated heart-warmer and then gave that nice dwarf king his entire Karak back before we could offer to raise his dead ancestors for and do it for him.
- Location
- Aotearoa
You know what I always say, Destroy a Dwarf Army a Day to Keep the Witch-Hunters Away.
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- Location
- Greece
I am gonna be somewhat longwinded here, but the TL;DR is "when in Dorfland, conventional wisdom would state that you should do as Dorfs do. Dorfs are often doing stupid things. So rather, know how they do in order to best steer things while dealing with them"
As someone who has the interesting stance that Thorgrim was right strategically but goofed really badly diplomatically, I have to say that most of the "Thorgrimm did nothing wrong" people forget the factor Dwarf and assume this is human geopolitics.
Thorgrimm's mistake was not refusing to send reinforcements. It was refusing to send reinforcements AND THEN wording the letter really badly towards a dwarf while being the high king.
If this was a human geopolitical scenario, I would actually agree with the points stated here. In fact, I am a proponent of asking for harmless reparations precisely because I agree. But this is about Dwarves, who are different both psychologically and politically. In Dwarven society, Thorgrimm committed 3 grave faux passes. Once again, I have to preface that this is not about my sense of morality, but about a reality that arises from dwarf psychology.
1) As a high king, he didn't send reinforcements.
That one I agree with, and I want to foster it. Dwarves need to avoid attrition as much as possible. However, it is explicitly the high king's duty to send assistance to all dwarven holds when needed. The fact that he didn't even send nominal reinforcements implies, in Dwarven society, that he thinks Belegar is no real king (point invalid if there was an emergency). It's not how I see it and perhaps not how he sees it, but it is how most dwarves would see it. It would be seen, by most Dwarfs, as an unforgivable snub* precisely because he is the high king and not a mere king.
This point gets aggravated further because Thorgrimm frequently sends Dwarves to die stupidly in order to avenge grudges. While averting losses is a mentality I want to foster in Dwarves, precedent does pretty heavily imply that Thorgrimm did not act for that reason. Nevertheless I am giving him the benefit of the doubt and even my approval here, but I feel the need to point out that most Dwarves wouldn't.
2) He implicitly called Belegar's close allies useless.
The fact that he wouldn't send reinforcements even if he took Belegar's allies into account is immaterial here. The point is that he didn't include them in his calculations, therefore insulting them, everyone that fought next to them and, most of all, the king who placed a great number of his hopes and trust in them. To a human, that would be a forgivable diplomatic faux pass. To a Dwarf, that is another grave snub*.
3)He implied Belegar would fail certainly.
Again, seeing this from a human perspective, this is nothing, heck, I may even call it wise. But for a Dwarven perspective, it shows lack of trust (Belegar's side thought there was a chance, or it wouldn't ask for reinforcements) incompotence (After all, Belegar succeeded) and willingness to use Dwarves as tools (He essentially brought up Belegar and groomed him to go to K8P. That he would not help him implies that he sent him to a suicide mission).
To Belegar himself, who stated that his hold is as sturdy as Karaz-a-Karak, this is essentially the gravest snub* of all. He called him, at best, a fool and at worst, a liar.
For all these snubs* Belegar needs reparations and the Dwarves need reparations, or they'll start going insane. Most humans would call that insane, but no Dwarf would find that even a litle peculiar. Thus, we should steer them towards a reparation that is not too harmful to Karaz-a-Karak, Karaz Ankor and Thorgrim, but is still meaningful enough to heal all psychological wounds, or we could sit and watch as disaster** unfolds, while Belegar either asks too much, declares a grudge, or is driven insane.
*Snubs, by the way, are a much bigger deal to Dwarves than humans, by the way, because they work as unhealable wounds unless addressed, due to the unique way Dwarven psychology words, so these minor diplomatical stupidities feel like a wound that will never stop hurting exactly the same as it did when one first got it. Unless addressed, that is.
**I understand that this word is too strong, and while rhetorically apt, it may constitute scaremongering somewhat, so while I do not want to change it, I thought that I'd clarify what would most likely happen in quest. Most likely we'll get multiple chances to intervene, unless we roll really badly. It is also highly possible that we won't be able to intervene at all to this event, and Belegar may even act as I advise on his own. It is also possible that either Belegar of Thorgrimm would goof their dice roll and create a disaster with no input from us or regardless of any input from us. But I must remind everyone that while the QM does not give trap options, he is not above unintended consequences that logically arrive. It happened twice already, once because we didn't report the piety advisor and once because we opted to propose the rational but cold plan to Belegar. In both cases the consequences were not too major, but significant enough to matter. In all honesty, I expect this rather than disaster, unless we start to roll crit fails like Abelheim, and at that point, nothing can save us. But saying "medium to minor negative consequences unfold" just doesn't roll off the tongue as well as "disaster unfolds"...
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I bet Alkasam was our best buddy. Such tragedy when he was so cruelly taken from us by the Witch Hunters/Sigmarites/Dwarfs/Whoever our delusional mind has picked out as the current enemy.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Roswita, obviously, coming to take revenge for her Dad. We admired her spunk and ability in actually pulling it off, and set about using pointed tests and challenges so that she would grow into a Witch Hunter worthy of Abelheim's legacy and either our loyalty or trust as our right-hand woman, depending on who ended up turning who, never mind that it was this exact tactic which got him killed in the first place. We were going to be her Totally-Not-StepMom necromancer rival and make sure his baby girl grew up right and proper. Then we got distracted by the Dwarves, of course, but we'll be back eventually.
EDIT: You know, I just realized that I wasn't exactly clear on who got killed by the tactic, and to be honest... it was both Albuequerqe, and Abelheim. We would test Abelheim until he died, then Alkentucky tried the same thing with Roswita, got himself killed, and then we stepped in to show him how it was done.
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The last two paragraphs were the vital bits.
Things only went as well because the hostile and neutral forces inside the Karak attacked one another so the peaks were taken with minimum losses and fortified which made the incoming orcs helpfully cluster and start digging so it could be effectively wiped out in one shot.
Thorgrim couldn't have predicted things would go anywhere near as well.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
We made an incredibly ballsy play when we decided to hit the Under-Caldera. It went well, but it relied on:
• The Mhonar Mystery being benign.
• Skryre not flooding out into the Under-Caldera fleeing from the Dragon.
• Mors not leaving behind a significant garrison.
• Neither of the goblin tribes hitting the Under-Caldera at the same time.
If even a single one of those assumptions were wrong, we'd likely have been dangerously over-extended and need to fall back after suffering losses.
It was a calculated risk, but a risk nonetheless. Luckily, Ranald delivered.
• The Mhonar Mystery being benign.
• Skryre not flooding out into the Under-Caldera fleeing from the Dragon.
• Mors not leaving behind a significant garrison.
• Neither of the goblin tribes hitting the Under-Caldera at the same time.
If even a single one of those assumptions were wrong, we'd likely have been dangerously over-extended and need to fall back after suffering losses.
It was a calculated risk, but a risk nonetheless. Luckily, Ranald delivered.
- Pronouns
- They/It
It's kind of two different guns mashed together depending on how you use it, in 2e at least.
The Hochland rifle and the Warplock Jezzail both have a 48/96 yards short/long range.
The Warplock without Warpdust is 24/72 range.
The Hochland does the better of two 1d10+4 rolls for damage.
The Warplock w/warpdust Does 1d10+5 damage that ignores 1 armor.
Without warpdust it does d10+3 damage ignoring 1 armor.
They both jam on a 96-99 and will explode on a 100 inflicting their damage on the user.
The Hochland is an engineer weapon and so training opportunities are much less available compared to the Warplock's gunpowder base, which shows up in a good few more careers.
Meanwhile the Araby Jezzail is over here at 24/72 range and a vanilla 1d10+3 damage as a gunpowder weapon, but it never jams or explodes. On the other hand it's literally so rare they don't bother to list a price or rarity for it.
- Location
- Aotearoa
And it's obviously not scalable like mass production firearms, but pertinent to the question of taking long rifle training, while all that is going on, Mathilde could BAMF in to range and unload four 1d10+3 (ish?) Ignores Armour Shadow Knives. With probably no higher chance of exploding!
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Fortunately, Tale of Metal exists.
Johan knows it, even.
Seems like that's not enough on its own, though, which is why having Maximilian help him out or getting relevant sections of that warlock-engineer's documentation translated might be very useful.
... Or Adela, given her engineering training, but I'd rather help her out with the skaven lighting research.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Personally, I still think getting a magical bow would be better, since they're much easier to get and magic would not only cover any weaknesses compared to a Jezzail, but even surpass it. Also a bow just being generally more convenient to use, since you don't have to lug around an absolutely massive weapon. I mean, the Sisters of Avelorn use magical bows, and while we likely couldn't get anything close to one of those things, it still means that the High Elves would probably be able to make us some kind of bow if we wanted. Actually, I wonder if we could invent some kind of shadow arrow spell, kinda like the Gold spell for shooting silver arrows.And it's obviously not scalable like mass production firearms, but pertinent to the question of taking long rifle training, while all that is going on, Mathilde could BAMF in to range and unload four 1d10+3 (ish?) Ignores Armour Shadow Knives. With probably no higher chance of exploding!
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
So, in 2e, it's outright worse than a H. Long Rifle? Unless ignoring 1 point of armor is really that important?
Only the major infrastructural runes. Mathilde could SEE the personal scale runes sucking in ambient Winds for power as they activate(and she knows the 'battlemagic' versions take many years to charge), but she can't see the big runes drawing in anywhere near enough to explain how they work.
Well:
This.
Don't just look at warpstone and immediately give up.
What does the warpstone do?
For the most part warpstone is really good at destroying, exploding and breaking. Used carefully it could also remove certain physics based limitations from your processes.
Its not really much good at making things harder, but using lots of warpstone routinely means that you learn how to make harder and tougher metals out of necessity. A barrel that could withstand the yield of a warpstone explosion has to be stronger.
Conversely, not having cheap electrical power or warpstone drills(or Chamon drills, come to think of it, Chamon enchanted tools can cut metal the same way) means that your civilization doesn't actually have any reason to develop equivalents to tungsten-steel, because even if your tool is hard enough you can't apply enough force precisely to make it into anything useful.
The dwarves probably DO, since we've learned that apparently the physical strength of the rune's material matters for withstanding the forces involved...but they're all guild secrets and thus not for public consumption.
They're okay with us stealing equivalents to those secrets from enemies though!
I'd note that it wasn't an assumption. We scouted enough to make it a reasonably supported theory:
-We've established that the Mystery was either benign or unstoppable by conventional force. Whichever of the two was true, our actions would be the same.
-We know Mors couldn't have left a significant garrison behind. We've scouted their holdings repeatedly for years, and when Mathilde identifies that they've gone All In, it is to a high degree of certainty.
--Thus by extension we knew that since Mors might be desperate but not stupid, if they felt that Skryre being attacked by dragon changed their Three to a Two, then they have reason to believe that Skryre could not present an assault at all.
-Greenskins had been confirmed to be fighting each other. Since Greenskins like fighting, if they are fighting each other, barring external interruption they'd be fighting each other for a good while.
Thats the whole General of Fog thing going on. Nobody know what was going on except us because they all committed immediately while Mathilde had the time to spend several hours confirming the situation of key actors, extrapolate to reasonable certainty the secondary actors, and then commit to a gamble once we knew every other player's hand.
The Dealer giving us Full House afterwards helped, but we were unlikely to lose outright.
If things hadn't gone nearly as in our favour, the hope was going to be that we could get Karagril and the Citadel clear and as thoroughly fortified as we could before the Waagh hit and that the dragon wouldn't come our way.
In that case, we'd hold a bit more territory than we previously had, and everything else would have changed hands from the Skaven to the Orcs.
Which wouldn't have been good - we'd be facing a much more unified enemy - but there's a decent chance it would have been survivable, especially if the orcs decided to pick a fight with the dragon before they finished with us.
Diplomacy with Karaz-A-Karak would be in a less plesent place, certainly.