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I am less worried by it, because I have a feeling that if the EIC doesn't do it, some other organization will, and unless it's the dwarves, it will be one I trust less than the EIC. Also, with the EIC's focus on long-term profits, any trade up the Blood River will lead to profit as people go through Karag Nar.

And hopefully, we can get it to partner with Barak Varr's (and K8P's) river-navies, which will be an additional ethical rudder for the organization.
It's gonna be the dwarves. Barak Varr already patrols those rivers and Ulrikadrin is a friendly port at which K8P is going to be laying down ships:
"Can you build a shipyard, then?"

He considers that. "I could," he decides. "Or at least get it to within a few tools and tweaks of suitable."

"Head to Ulrikadrin and get started, have their Grand Master pay me a visit at his convenience to negotiate the details. Prince Kazrik, how were things in the Hornhold?"
"Kazrik. Did you find a wright to go with Gotri's shipyard?"

"Yes," he says quickly, and you have to refrain from sighing in relief. "The Barak Varr Shipwrights Guilds is amiably schisming into the Skarrenokri and the Slotchokri. I've sworn us into a partnership with the Slotchokri, and Zhufbar's and Karak Kadrin's Shipwrights Guilds have done the same. The Skarrenokri are retaining the previous Shipwrights Guild's shipyards - can't have a gap in maintaining the Barak Varr Navy, after all - so the Slotchokri are desperately short of working space until they manage to rearrange the Barak Varr port to fit them in. They say they'll start putting boats into the water for us as soon as they arrive as long as they can build maintenance facilities and a dry-dock at Ulrikadrin to tide them over. Once things are set up for them back in Barak Varr, they'll hand over the facilities to us in payment for their use, and we can retain as much of their service as we'd like to at standard Guild rates."
This is part of why I opposed/still oppose the EIC combat navy: the dwarves are already doing this for their national security, so there's no reason for the EIC to invest in this itself unless it wants to undertake independent combat operations.
Yeah, I'm quite fine with giving a company a navy. It's one thing when the prospective enemies of the company are human natives, its quite another when they are fighting Orcs pirates.
...but so far the only pirates have been the Border Princes. That's what Belegar was dealing with this turn instead of being at home to lead the defense of K8P. So, empirically, the prospective enemy are human natives.
Believing that patrols are sufficient to do more than slow piracy is excessively optimistic.
Uh, why wouldn't that also apply to the EIC's combat navy? Like I quoted before, the vote wasn't "arm the EIC merchant vessels" (which, as you pointed out, would be the historical norm already), it's "build a paramilitary navy": combat vessels, like what the dwarves are laying down.
 
I do actually trust the EIC, because we know that they know that if the Empire goes under everybody dies. There's a proactive corollary; they can both make money and not die by making sure the Empire doesn't go under.

I'm not too worried about them using military training or resources to oppress the local populace, because the local populace is the people who trade with them, and they know not to skin the sheep. Their entire business model is based on long term integration at every level of the local economy, and that doesn't work if people hate them. Plus, they're not the real life EIC; they do all of their trading inside the Empire, which they are patriots for, because they know that the long term financial good of the Empire is both profitable and the best chance to not be devoured by horrible monsters.
This is part of why I opposed/still oppose the EIC combat navy: the dwarves are already doing this for their national security, so there's no reason for the EIC to invest in this itself unless it wants to undertake independent combat operations.
Have you forgotten the riverine economy of Stirland? They're already naval traders. And that shrine we came across to Stromfels wasn't doing nothing there, for all that it was abandoned; piracy is very much a factor.
 
Also, about worries of the navy. It wasn't that the East India Company was private that made it so bad. Colonial powers were at times just as bad. It was its mission of being an Imperial/Colonial power that was the problem. The EIC's mission, in contrast, isn't colonial. So I'm not seeing why our EIC would be worse than a navy run by some noble?
 
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Also, about worries of the navy. It wasn't that the East India Company was private that made it so bad. Colonial powers were at times just as bad. It was it's mission of being an Imperial/Colonial power that was the problem. The EIC's mission, in contrast, isn't colonial. So I'm not seeing why our EIC would be worse than a navy run by some noble?
Something else to keep in mind is that putting Wilhelmina aside, the entire board of directors is nobility. Upper nobility even, given they have a Baron and I'm pretty sure the East Riverine Company that bought off Roswita's share are nobility too.
 
To take a step back from the EIC and armed naval vessels, we should take a moment to remember that the river will already be patrolled by Barak Varr and K8P. It's in their interest to ensure that the EIC can go hither and yon with goods since if it's too dangerous then the EIC simply won't travel the route.
 
To take a step back from the EIC and armed naval vessels, we should take a moment to remember that the river will already be patrolled by Barak Varr and K8P. It's in their interest to ensure that the EIC can go hither and yon with goods since if it's too dangerous then the EIC simply won't travel the route.
But the Stirland rivers that they haven't dug canals to yet? Why would the dwarves be on those?
 
Uh, why wouldn't that also apply to the EIC's combat navy? Like I quoted before, the vote wasn't "arm the EIC merchant vessels" (which, as you pointed out, would be the historical norm already), it's "build a paramilitary navy": combat vessels, like what the dwarves are laying down.
No? Paramilitary is a very big leap away from actual military.
Paramilitary is closer to police, national guard, etc, which is well within(or even below) the firepower which a mercenary company could bring to bear.

A paramilitary force can expect to drive off bandits, and small tribal attacks, but their chances against a real warship is negligible. Its effectively, having a squad of marines on board your merchantman, instead of relying on whatever personal arms your sailors individually might bring.

To take a step back from the EIC and armed naval vessels, we should take a moment to remember that the river will already be patrolled by Barak Varr and K8P. It's in their interest to ensure that the EIC can go hither and yon with goods since if it's too dangerous then the EIC simply won't travel the route.
Much as Belegar wishes otherwise, warships aren't actually all that effective at stopping riverine piracy. Pirates are often shore based, with cunning strategies including using logjams to force ships to stop or take damage so that they can be boarded by small vessels.
 
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Something else to keep in mind is that putting Wilhelmina aside, the entire board of directors is nobility. Upper nobility even, given they have a Baron and I'm pretty sure the East Riverine Company that bought off Roswita's share are nobility too.
Fair. But I'd honestly trust companies over the whims of individual nobles any day. Remember, Roswita probably can't afford a navy right now, and other than Anton and Heidi, she's probably the only Empire noble Mathilde trusts. Also, note that other trade companies might try to interfere with us as well.
 
To take a step back from the EIC and armed naval vessels, we should take a moment to remember that the river will already be patrolled by Barak Varr and K8P. It's in their interest to ensure that the EIC can go hither and yon with goods since if it's too dangerous then the EIC simply won't travel the route.
Actually, doesn't Stirland have two canals the EIC is operating on? Is the other one protected? Also, we'll be competing with Marienburg soon. That's definitely something to keep in mind.
 
Much as Belegar wishes otherwise, warships aren't actually all that effective at stopping riverine piracy. Pirates are often shore based, with cunning strategies including using logjams to force ships to stop or take damage so that they can be boarded by small vessels.
(Edit: Dwarven) Escort ships wouldn't be too troublesome, no? Pirates might think differently when whatever riverboat is already escorted with one or two river monitors?
 
Something else to keep in mind is that putting Wilhelmina aside, the entire board of directors is nobility. Upper nobility even, given they have a Baron and I'm pretty sure the East Riverine Company that bought off Roswita's share are nobility too.
I.e. people who don't need Mathilde to tell them when it's time to raise some armed forces to protect their interests. Nor need our help to do so.
 
Actually, doesn't Stirland have two canals the EIC is operating on? Is the other one protected? Also, we'll be competing with Marienburg soon. That's definitely something to keep in mind.
I think the most important thing to defend against will be the Skaven pirates out of Karak Varn. They might otherwise start heading down the river, and there goes the Conspiracy of Silence.
 
I.e. people who don't need Mathilde to tell them when it's time to raise some armed forces to protect their interests. Nor need our help to do so.
Perhaps they simply lack her resources and influence. No Baron can compete with a Grey Magister with the authority of a King behind her.
 
This is part of why I opposed/still oppose the EIC combat navy: the dwarves are already doing this for their national security, so there's no reason for the EIC to invest in this itself unless it wants to undertake independent combat operations.

The dwarves will no doubt do their best, but as we've seen, they can't be everywhere all the time. Besides, Stirland didn't have a river patrol the last time I checked.

...but so far the only pirates have been the Border Princes. That's what Belegar was dealing with this turn instead of being at home to lead the defense of K8P. So, empirically, the prospective enemy are human natives.

So what? Pirates are an enemy it doesn't matter if they are human or orc.
 
No? Paramilitary is a very big leap away from actual military.
Paramilitary is closer to police, national guard, etc, which is well within(or even below) the firepower which a mercenary company could bring to bear.

A paramilitary force can expect to drive off bandits, and small tribal attacks, but their chances against a real warship is negligible. Its effectively, having a squad of marines on board your merchantman, instead of relying on whatever personal arms your sailors individually might bring.
I read paramilitary as "a militarily-organized combat force, but outside the auspices of a polity's actual military." Light combat-focused ships; not armament for merchant ships. Most use of the word I see is in that context; e.g. discussion of paramilitary extremists.

My view is that we voted for our involvement in the EIC to be strictly intel-focused and that's the sort of action I want to take. But it's irrelevant to continue this until the next turn comes up and it's still an option.
So what? Pirates are an enemy it doesn't matter if they are human or orc.
It matters to the person I was responding to, if you check the context of that quoted remark. They were specifically saying that they were fine arming the EIC to fight orcs rather than humans.
 
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Stirland has a river patrol and River Wardens are a concept. What the river paramilitary is likely to be used for is to protect the EICs shipping assets, and are unlikely to be more than partially trained marines in a boat, with no weapons save the ones they can hold. My point is they are likely to be lightly armed and focus more on non-human threats and even then only threats to EIC assets.

warhammerfantasy.fandom.com

Stir River Patrol

The Stir River Patrol is a subdivision of Stirland's state army[2a] charged with patrolling the River Stir. The Stir is both a well-travelled trade route and the entire northern border of Stirland. Thus the Stir River Patrol has the dual purposes of protecting river traffic from whatever might...

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Riverwarden

So back in the day, when I was a riverwarden, Big Willi came round to tell me I had to leave a certain shipment alone. He said I should just let it through and everything would be alright. Of course, I was young, wasn't I? I told the ship's master all about it. And was I rewarded for my honesty...
 
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To take a step back from the EIC and armed naval vessels, we should take a moment to remember that the river will already be patrolled by Barak Varr and K8P. It's in their interest to ensure that the EIC can go hither and yon with goods since if it's too dangerous then the EIC simply won't travel the route.
Barak Varr folks are shrewd and not nearly as aligned with EIC as K8P is. Expect their protection to be expensive and to favor actual Barak Varr merchants over sort of allied EIC ones. It's better to have your own security in those waters than to go without it.
 
Stirland has a river patrol and River Wardens are a concept. What the river paramilitary is likely to be used for is to protect the EICs shipping assets, and are unlikely to be more than partially trained marines in a boat, with no weapons save the ones they can hold.

warhammerfantasy.fandom.com

Stir River Patrol

The Stir River Patrol is a subdivision of Stirland's state army[2a] charged with patrolling the River Stir. The Stir is both a well-travelled trade route and the entire northern border of Stirland. Thus the Stir River Patrol has the dual purposes of protecting river traffic from whatever might...
That's the Stirland Military, though, and we know that they're permanently tied down in Sylvania; they might exist, but they're not getting any real funding.

The EIC, as a corporation so large it has bought the right to collect its own taxes, and which has resources specializing in the production of guns and gunpowder components, is far better equipped to actually man and supply a riverine military watch at the moment.
 
Perhaps they simply lack her resources and influence. No Baron can compete with a Grey Magister with the authority of a King behind her.
They have the resources of the EIC to protect the EIC. The international arms dealing corporation that supplies weapons to kings and elector counts, builds and buys its own ships, recruits hundreds of personnel every year including security personnel. As proper Stirland nobles they have the authority to keep proper armed forces based out of Stirland which a minimum rank knight who lives and works in a foreign country does not (and a grey wizard certainly does not).
 
I dislike the implicit divisions into 'legitimate' and 'illegitimate' powers, even more than I dislike the attitude that all power anywhere outside of our own hands is suspicious, and more suspicious if we started it.

Going by the Bursar's backstory, that is not the case in quest-canon. She very much meddled in internal politics and economic issues, for the good of the Empire as a whole.

Edit: whoops, through this was Francesco when i quoted it. My point for her was that the merchant empires she ended had spent decades thumbing their noses at the authorities. Decades. Worried about small fry and potential problems, she is not.
...


And this is why. For me, the relevant question is: Does it make the lives of the people it impacts better or worse?

So, first order effects- Less piracy. EIC gets another mercenary wing, in addition to caravan guards. Bunch of people die in battles.

Second order effects- trade increases. Fewer people die or are rendered destitute by piracy. Large areas of formerly lawless territory see an increase in security, but without representation.

Third order effects- the EIC gets maybe a bit more willing to throw its weight around against opponents? The border princes maybe try and pivot from piracy to settlement construction centered on the rivers, under the new naval umbrella? Dwarves and Karag Nar experience a bit more cross-pressure in their internal politics. The empire gets richer.

So I think it a clear win.

I am less worried by it, because I have a feeling that if the EIC doesn't do it, some other organization will, and unless it's the dwarves, it will be one I trust less than the EIC. Also, with the EIC's focus on long-term profits, any trade up the Blood River will lead to profit as people go through Karag Nar.

And hopefully, we can get it to partner with Barak Varr's (and K8P's) river-navies, which will be an additional ethical rudder for the organization.

I really don't think anyone will. This is not claimed territory, heck the nominal legitimate authorities are the pirates. Babies take a ton of infrastructure and resources, and the EIC is really the only player besides the dwarves in this space with those. Even the dwarves have bigger things to worry about, and are likely to patch and pray in this area. (Barak Var gives first priority to it's blue-water Navy, and K8P still had the steward spending an entire turn getting basic things like blacksmiths and mines up and running.

No one is coming to help.

This is part of why I opposed/still oppose the EIC combat navy: the dwarves are already doing this for their national security, so there's no reason for the EIC to invest in this itself unless it wants to undertake independent combat operations.

The main reason I see is to take pressure off the dwarves. They are REALLY not know for long-ranging patrols in strength to hold big areas of territory- kinda the opposite of fortresses. Plus, as above, they have bigger fish to fry. This is a problem that mainly impacts EIC, is sized right to be dealt with by EIC, and is something the dwarves would regard as a gift to have part of the weight taken up. Only risk is conflicting orders and laws, but the EIC and dwarves are closely intertwined enough I regard the risk as minimal.

To take a step back from the EIC and armed naval vessels, we should take a moment to remember that the river will already be patrolled by Barak Varr and K8P. It's in their interest to ensure that the EIC can go hither and yon with goods since if it's too dangerous then the EIC simply won't travel the route.

That doesn't mean they have enough resources, or attention to do it 100%. I'm betting that the spike we are seeing is with increased dwarven patrols anyways- the opportunity is just too large and alternatives too scarce. More protection is good, and will allow legitimate settlements and businesses to grow around the river trade.
 
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That's the Stirland Military, though, and we know that they're permanently tied down in Sylvania; they might exist, but they're not getting any real funding.

The EIC, as a corporation so large it has bought the right to collect its own taxes, and which has resources specializing in the production of guns and gunpowder components, is far better equipped to actually man and supply a riverine military watch at the moment.

If funding is the cause, the question then perhaps should be should EIC found its own military arm in competition to the official armies, or should it perhaps channel funds to the Stirland Military?

As far as I see it, the purpose of the EIC is to facilitate trade in order to generate wealth for the good of the Empire. What benefits the EIC is secondary, and to be sought after only if it can proportionally increase the resources the EIC can in turn provide to the Empire.

If a military in the Empire is lacking funds, and this lack is impacting EIC operations, then the natural solution is the fund the Empire. To divert resources and goods where they are needed.

And not necessarily to expand operations sufficiently to outgun the legitimate local navy.
 
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