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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Briefvoice said:
How very dwarf-like of him.
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Not really, it's not a matter of stubbornness it's a matter of pride. It fits Caledor to a T.

And regarding justifications I don't really see Finubar as having a choice to throw a parade for Arsanil. He could perhaps congratulate him in person, praise his quick thinking if it was actually valid, but he had to discourage others from acting in that way since all it takes one idiot thinking they are the next Arsanil to have Malekith ruling Ulthuan. The Dark Elves only have to win big once.
 
PseudoLurker said:
Not really, it's not a matter of stubbornness it's a matter of pride. It fits Caledor to a T.

And regarding justifications I don't really see Finubar as having a choice to throw a parade for Arsanil. He could perhaps congratulate him in person, praise his quick thinking if it was actually valid, but he had to discourage others from acting in that way since all it takes one idiot thinking they are the next Arsanil to have Malekith ruling Ulthuan. The Dark Elves only have to win big once.
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But what if the Caledorians are in fact no elves at all, but tall, dragon-riding dwarves.
 
The smart thing would have been to publicly congratulate Asarnil, on his quick thinking and decision to act once the devious DE plan made itself evident, so the people he saved know that their lives are important, and then privately have a quiet talk with him and the generals to tell them than this time this behaviour can be excused, but unless they are a brilliant strategist or have vital new information, then the next time this happens their head might end up in a pike.

But he didn't, and then comes the question, if he is neither protecting the public perception of the events not the military doctrine of his people, then what is he protecting? All the arguments being made are valid as doctrine, but applying them in this case means completely ignoring the actual events, Asarnil had more up to date information, he is as good a strategist and he succeeded.

Thus reprimanding him for it was the king saying "never prove me wrong again", that or he is shit at politics (because elf).
 
Exmorri said:
Unsupported speculation: that Asarnil is a 10 times lottery winner
Missing information: how many times Asarnil lost the lottery
Unsupported speculation: that this is a policy only relevant to Asarnil
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Evidence: Famous general and war hero.
Evidence: Famous general and war hero.
Make one event for generals and one for the public, because else you are saying that either lives or information don't matter, only your orders.
 
LockedMind said:
Asarnil gambled not only with his forces, but with Finubar's army as well. Surely you can see why Finubar didn't appreciate it.
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Oh I can definitely understand him, he lost, badly.
He was put in a position where he either had to allow Asarnil a political win or show himself an incompetent tyrant, he chose the latter as he lacked the ability to play well the former.
 
das_slash said:
Evidence: Famous general and war hero.
Evidence: Famous general and war hero.
Make one event for generals and one for the public, because else you are saying that either lives or information don't matter, only your orders.
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We're a famous general and war hero, and we couldn't replicate most of the gambles we made. Actually running an army with an actual doctrine only works if everybody buys into it. The moment everybody thinks they can be the next Asarnil by fragmenting their army and hoping the dark elves are idiots they're all going to die, and Finubar wasn't an incompetent tyrant for trying to prevent that.
 
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I think there are two basic outlines for next turn: one with the goal of learning spoken Queekish, and one that puts spoken Queekish on the back burner:

Priority: Spoken Queekish
Coin: Deceiver
Max/Johann/Ducklings: Flex
M1: Rapport with Qrech
M2: Ask to be taught Queekish
M3: Train Wolf's intelligence
M4: Flex (AV state changes?)
Overwork?: Flex

Backburner Spoken Queekish
Coin: Flexible
Max: Take dictation
Johann/Ducklings: Flex
M1: Rapport with Qrech
M2: Dictate a Queekish Dictionary
M3/M4: Flex (AV state changes + something else?)
Overwork?: Flex

Personally, I think we should take at least 1 action on spoken Queekish, and then depending on how it goes extend the project or not.
 
chocolote12 said:
This is the one where AP expenditures on him are no longer mandatory, right? (Beyond that he's likely to die of old age before we turn forty).
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That's right. Also it helps us get to know him better, which will help us find his levers and convince him that he can fulfill his values by helping us. This is why it's part of the priority plan as well as the backburner plan.
 
chocolote12 said:
We're a famous general and war hero, and we couldn't replicate most of the gambles we made. Actually running an army with an actual doctrine only works if everybody buys into it. The moment everybody thinks they can be the next Asarnil by fragmenting their army and hoping the dark elves are idiots they're all going to die, and Finubar wasn't an incompetent tyrant for trying to prevent that.
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But he could prevent that while rewarding Asarnil, he just needed to actually play politics, but he couldn't, because incompetence.
I don't envy his position, he had already lost the moment Asarnil returned victorious.

Because he could say "but you didn't know you would win!"and Asarnil would just say "I did" and have more weight, because he was right.

He could say "you risked the army" and Asarnil just say "It was less risky than letting the other army behind us" and with the weight of his victory and experience be right again.

Finubar can only say "it could have gone wrong" and Asarnil has all the "it went right, as I knew it would", and none of the "what ifs" and "maybes" are actually relevant anymore.

Really, Asarnil's only mistake was playing chess without realizing his opponent was a pidgeon, and it never mattered how well he played, Finubar was always going to shit the board and then strut around pretending he won.
 
My personal preference would be to publish the dictionary next turn, ideally in both languages. I really, really don't want to extend the Queekish project if we can help it - there's a ton of stuff going on in K8P I'd like to be able to get officially assigned to.

So something like:

Plan On-Time and Under Budget
Max: Take dictation
Johann: Give him the translated engineering documents.
Ducklings: Poke Hubert so he's not left out.
M1: Rapport with Qrech
M2: Dictate a Queekish Dictionary
M3: Write a Queekish Dictionary (1/2)
M4: Teach Wolf to Talk
Overwork?: Try To Learn Spoken Queekish?
Serenity: Write a Queekish Dictionary (2/2)
 
Aegon Targaryen said:
[ ] Seeking adventure as the second coming of Nagash, searching for ways to overcome the final enemy of life. (you won't actually write this on the paper, but choose it if this is what you want Mathilde to do)
I just saw this option in turn 17.5 and am bamboozled it did not win. @Omegahugger's failure began there.
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Who do you think is responsible for that option?

And that's not where our failure began (In fact, it's the closest we've ever gotten to victory...), that started when we first lost the vote to bring Abelhelm van Hal back during the Sylvania campaign.
(Healing Abel with Dhar does not count as the dice(Ranald) were dead set on killing Abel no matter what we voted for at that point)
 
picklepikkl said:
I think there are two basic outlines for next turn: one with the goal of learning spoken Queekish, and one that puts spoken Queekish on the back burner:

Priority: Spoken Queekish
Coin: Deceiver
Max/Johann/Ducklings: Flex
M1: Rapport with Qrech
M2: Ask to be taught Queekish
M3: Train Wolf's intelligence
M4: Flex (AV state changes?)
Overwork?: Flex

Backburner Spoken Queekish
Coin: Flexible
Max: Take dictation
Johann/Ducklings: Flex
M1: Rapport with Qrech
M2: Dictate a Queekish Dictionary
M3/M4: Flex (AV state changes + something else?)
Overwork?: Flex

Personally, I think we should take at least 1 action on spoken Queekish, and then depending on how it goes extend the project or not.
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There's also the possibility of deciding that spoken Queekish is ultimately unnecessary and disposing of Qrech as a free action, thus eliminating that action slot.

Certainly now that we're no longer living next to a bunch of skaven clans it drops down way lower in priority. Particularly as spoken Queekish isn't something we can write a translation guide for like we can for written Queekish. I mean, it's theoretically possible to learn to speak a language from a book... but not really. You need someone who actually speaks the language to practice with and learn from. Mathilde learning spoken Queekish is mostly for herself and someone she might personally train in the language someday; it's not something she can easily just pass on to the Colleges as a whole.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
My personal preference would be to publish the dictionary next turn, ideally in both languages. I really, really don't want to extend the Queekish project if we can help it - there's a ton of stuff going on in K8P I'd like to be able to get officially assigned to.

So something like:

Plan On-Time and Under Budget
Max: Take dictation
Johann: Give him the translated engineering documents.
Ducklings: Poke Hubert so he's not left out.
M1: Rapport with Qrech
M2: Dictate a Queekish Dictionary
M3: Write a Queekish Dictionary (1/2)
M4: Teach Wolf to Talk
Overwork?: Try To Learn Spoken Queekish?
Serenity: Write a Queekish Dictionary (2/2)
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Lack of any AV is going to be a nonstarter for a lot of people, but I understand the idea behind this plan.

The main thing that's pushing me in the direction of going for spoken Queekish is that people convinced me of the force multiplier effect: it's true that we, by ourself, no longer have a strong need for spoken Queekish in the short term, but the skaven are still out there. We obviously don't have the time to establish our own deep-penetration spy networks in skaven territory, or to teach it to everyone inducted into the Conspiracy of Silence, but if we learn it and then teach it to someone who can make teaching others their full-time job, within a reasonably short timeframe the Colleges as a whole will have acquired a very powerful weapon.

(This presupposes that we will have to teach spoken Queekish directly and that it cannot purely be learned from the textbook we write; if it turns out that it can be purely learned from the textbook, then the long-term action economy of taking the time to learn it now looks even better.)
Briefvoice said:
Mathilde learning spoken Queekish is mostly for herself and someone she might personally train in the language someday; it's not something she can easily just pass on to the Colleges as a whole.
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You posted while I was busy posting, but I also had this belief until someone pointed out to me that we can teach a teacher, and thereby pass it on to the Colleges as a whole.

EDIT: Like, "learning an esoteric language so that you can then teach it to any Magisters when they become available, because the original teacher is also a Magister and is extremely busy all the time" is exactly why the colleges have Perpetual Apprentices: it doesn't require magical skill, it just requires a trusted person plugged into the College academic network.
 
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das_slash said:
The smart thing would have been to publicly congratulate Asarnil, on his quick thinking and decision to act once the devious DE plan made itself evident, so the people he saved know that their lives are important, and then privately have a quiet talk with him and the generals to tell them than this time this behaviour can be excused, but unless they are a brilliant strategist or have vital new information, then the next time this happens their head might end up in a pike.
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He needed the public perception to be that this was wrong. Doing it privately does nothing there.

das_slash said:
But he could prevent that while rewarding Asarnil, he just needed to actually play politics, but he couldn't, because incompetence.
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Rewards could have been given after the hearing, but you know, Arsanil bailed. Ultimately we don't know, because due to stupid pride we never learned what was Finubar's plan. Perhaps he really was incompetent, but Arsanil going "You're not the boss of me!" to his actual boss is in no way smart. Simply for Finubar we don't know if he really fucked up, for Arsanil we do and he did. Going into exile was not in anyone's best interest. Well, perhaps the Dark elves approved.
 
das_slash said:
He could say "you risked the army" and Asarnil just say "It was less risky than letting the other army behind us" and with the weight of his victory and experience be right again.
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1) While Asarnil was a war hero, Finubar wasn't chopped liver himself. This event was like a week after Finubar and Tyrion pincered and destroyed DE warhost that besieged Lothern (Finubar sallied from Lothern while Tyrion led the relieving army after he and Teclis won at Finuval Plain).

2) That army behind them was pretty far away - Asarnil only managed to go there and back in reasonable time because his whole command consisted of dragonriders. He could actually march with Finubar, defeat main DE army and then relieve Caledor. Caledor would suffer bigger losses, but it would be less risky plan. Basically, he accepted lesser chance of victory for reduced casualties in the case of that victory.
 
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The biggest issue I have with doing Spoken queekish now is that it is no longer urgent. It is totally a viable thing to pursue, but I would prioritize Armor, Wolf Talking, Dragon Diplomacy, and Yar Doom tower over that as things needed now.
 
picklepikkl said:
Priority: Spoken Queekish
Coin: Deceiver
Max/Johann/Ducklings: Flex
M1: Rapport with Qrech
M2: Ask to be taught Queekish
M3: Train Wolf's intelligence
M4: Flex (AV state changes?)
Overwork?: Flex
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I'd like to add learning how to make a staff for that +1 magic.
It's the only +1 magic without risk we still see a way to get rather easily. (1-2 AP?) Unsure if the staff making class only teaches how to make one and we need one more AP to actually make a staff.
 
das_slash said:
Really, Asarnil's only mistake was playing chess without realizing his opponent was a pidgeon, and it never mattered how well he played, Finubar was always going to shit the board and then strut around pretending he won.
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Somehow, I'm not seeing why is Finubar the pigeon in the situation, and not the guy who couldn't swallow his pride even for a second to the point he flipped everyone off and ran away. Disciplinary hearings after you disobeyed orders without so much as by-your-leave are in no way unusual or insulting, no matter how much you succeeded.
 
LightLan said:
I'd like to add learning how to make a staff for that +1 magic.
It's the only +1 magic without risk we still see a way to get rather easily. (1-2 AP?) Unsure if the staff making class only teaches how to make one and we need one more AP to actually make a staff.
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We will almost certainly need to spend AP on the actual creation, because Boney made it clear that the creation is a roll of its own and if we screw up we lose our materials.

Staff-making is a candidate for the flex shots, for sure; my point in my post was just "I see two broad schools of thought in how we should approach our given task next turn, so I want to show what the skeleton of the plans might look like".
 
PseudoLurker said:
He needed the public perception to be that this was wrong. Doing it privately does nothing there.
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Exactly, he only cared about the public perception, as a private meeting would only affect military doctrine which is what was being argued.
Rewards could have been given after the hearing, but you know, Arsanil bailed. Ultimately we don't know, because due to stupid pride we never learned what was Finubar's plan. Perhaps he really was incompetent, but Arsanil going "You're not the boss of me!" to his actual boss is in no way smart. Simply for Finubar we don't know if he really fucked up, for Arsanil we do and he did. Going into exile was not in anyone's best interest. Well, perhaps the Dark elves approved.
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This pretty much, and i think Asarnil bailing is entirely Fubinar's failure to actually manage the situation, that's why he is incompetent, i would put him on "Shave the dwarf embassador" levels of political savvy, he lost a brilliant general and hero when at best, the message he wanted to get across is "Don't ever question my orders, even if you know better" which he could have simply told to the people that needed to hear it.


Really @everyone discussing this, i get Finubar's conundrum, he tried to make the best out of a bad situation and he utterly failed, what he did was good doctrine but he failed to actually address the specific situation instead of wider theoreticals, had he been smarter or more politically savvy then Asarnil would have come out a hero while it was clear that he was really the one in charge, but then again, if he was smarter and more politically savvy he would never be king of the elfs.
 
agumentic said:
Disciplinary hearings after you disobeyed orders without so much as by-your-leave are in no way unusual or insulting, no matter how much you succeeded.
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To be fair in medieval times this was not necessarily the case. Perception mattered a lot more back then. Today it litteraly does not matter why did went against orders, there is a hearing. Your actions might be considered justified, but there is always a hearing first.
 
DocMatoi said:
A bunch of pages ago, people theorized that the low dwarfen birthrate was cultural instead of biological. It seems we were right, and we've just found the reason. Why have a bunch of kids if the world is so inimical to them? Why be so cruel to the unborn?
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Idk that's an incredibly lame reason not to have kids on Malus, the world is always out to get everyone on that planet. Heck everyone has to deal with Morrslieb once a month, and the wildlife isn't exactly a pushover. Tbh the average dwarf is probably safer than the average human when they're born.
 
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