Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[SuperSonicSound]

Chaos corruption is tolkienesque. That's distinct and different from Dhar corruption. Dhar is a dumb magical energy that is harmful to you. It's uranium. Chaos is an intelligent and malevolent force.

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it's worth pointing out that most of the fantasy literature for warhammer basically describes warpstone as glowing green rocks. It's pretty much fantasy magical uranium from a laymans understanding of what uranium is meant to look like.

 

[Fanhunter696]

@BoneyM the Seed of Regrowth also heals sickness and/or poisons, or does it work like a Senzu Bean?

 

[Garlak]

You're basing your entire view of how things should work purely from themes of LOTR when those themes are present in wildly different contexts to LOTR.

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I apologize for over-reacting. I am just a bit trigger-wary when it comes to the Dhar discussion that's been ongoing for a while now. It's basically like playing Whack-a-mole at this point.

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... I made use of that quote because I thought it was clever and funny (and on some level fitting) and hoped that it would make people reading it also amused (and/or roll their eyes).

I also threw in the Gandalf stuff because I remembered seeing it somewhere in the thread, and since my mind was already thinking about it and so why not.


Of the quotes I used, I actually really hoped it was going to be the "Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword" one that would get picked up and discussed and repeated and mused over. While the Tolkien quote would get chuckles or eyerolls.

EDIT: I mean for goodness sake, we dropped evil artifacts into a volcano in this update! How can I not chuckle and enjoy that and want to see more of.

 

[Asheram]

On the subject of starting a branch Wizards College I will say that I will vote against it, though I'm not opposed to it developing naturally out of the Duckling Club.
Currently what we have here in the Club is a resource, an invaluable resource both to us for getting extra assistance with the various things around the Karak, and also for Journeymen of all houses, to prove their mettle and do field research in a safe-ish environment. It is a turn investment, that it is, but I will emphasize the word investment. Especially since we're already seen a payout in what they can bring to the table.

Furthermore it should be remembered that even if our names aren't on the actual dissertations and books they produce, we will more than likely be featured in them as a person of favorable repute and authority. Every Journeyman we take in will spread our name at a nearly exponential rate.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

... I made use of that quote because I thought it was clever and funny (and on some level fitting) and hoped that it would make people reading it also amused (and/or roll their eyes).

I also threw in the Gandalf stuff because I remembered seeing it somewhere in the thread, and since my mind was already thinking about it and so why not.


Of the quotes I used, I actually really hoped it was going to be the "Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword" one that would get picked up and discussed and repeated and mused over. While the Tolkien quote would get chuckles or eyerolls.

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Eh fair enough, any way I think it's important to realise that Dhar isn't the devils tool in the way you're implying it's more akin to magical enriched uranium. Chaos magic, tomes and such now that fits perfectly with what you're talking about. That doesn't mean Dhar is safe, because obviously no one really has the tools to be able to deal with it properly. Excepting the dwarves and the Elves that can just walk around ignoring it completely.

 

[Garlak]

Eh fair enough, any way I think it's important to realise that Dhar isn't the devils tool in the way you're implying it's more akin to magical enriched uranium. Chaos magic, tomes and such now that fits perfectly with what you're talking about. That doesn't mean Dhar is safe, because obviously no one really has the tools to be able to deal with it properly. Excepting the dwarves and the Elves that can just walk around ignoring it completely.

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... Isn't it corrupting, mutating, and insanity-causing and evil-causing? It's the literal byword for dark magic. In raw material form, as Warpstone, it's used by Skaven. It's... it's uranium if uranium was also evil and hateful.

Only those who are resistant or immune to it can even be around it. It doesn't even deserve a qualifier of "That doesn't mean Dhar is safe."

Using it, or tinkering it, is taboo in so many cultures.

It's... it's literally dark magic. That's what it's called in the Dark Elves armybook, outright; the Lore of Dark Magic.

 

[vsh]

Chaos corruption is tolkienesque. That's distinct and different from Dhar corruption. Dhar is a dumb magical energy that is harmful to you. It's uranium. Chaos is an intelligent and malevolent force.

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"Using an immoral shortcut to power makes you an evil jerk" is totally a Tolkienesque theme, no matter if it's Chaos or Necromancy.

 

[DragonParadox]

... Isn't it corrupting, mutating, and insanity-causing and evil-causing? It's the literal byword for dark magic. In raw material form, as Warpstone, it's used by Skaven. It's... it's uranium if uranium was also evil and hateful.

Only those who are resistant or immune to it can even be around it. It doesn't even deserve a qualifier of "That doesn't mean Dhar is safe."

Using it, or tinkering it, is taboo in so many cultures.

It's... it's literally dark magic. That's what it's called in the Dark Elves armybook, outright; the Lore of Dark Magic.

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To be fair if we are talking about what is taboo in many human cultures, that applies to all magic, the distinction of what is Dhar is only known to people who have a reasonable understanding of the arcane. The elves (Dark and Wood) just argue that humans are the strange ones for being too weak to wield Dhar.

 

[Quest]

in raw material form, as Warpstone,

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I'll note that we just witnessed a method born of natural evolution defeat warpstone just this update with the We, who literally hold warpstone inside their body and aren't evil.

"Using an immoral shortcut to power makes you an evil jerk" is totally a Tolkienesque theme, no matter if it's Chaos or Necromancy.

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Magic in general is considered a immoral shortcut to power by most of humanity. Mathilde herself was nearly burned at the stake as a child. Basically all power in warhammer is one or another flavor of corrupting for humans. They still use it.

 

[SandKing]

True Dhar has never been properly used before. We just need to try and we'll get it right. Think about how much good we could do if we only had access to unlimited power.

[X] Loremaster: Expert on beekeeping

[X] Francesco Caravello, proud leader of the Undumgi
[X] Kragg the Grim, who you could likely convince to start gloating.
[X] Empress 'Heidi', to see if you can snatch a private moment to speak honestly with her.
[X] The Amber College, to see how your donation of Lustrian eggs is going.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

... Isn't it corrupting, mutating, and insanity-causing and evil-causing?

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Not what I actually said, the evil it causes is incidental there's no transcendent will behind it, not in the way there is with say Chaos, or to use LOTR for a moment in the way it would be with the One Ring. It's the difference between one of intent and something that causes destruction incidentally.

... Isn't it corrupting, mutating, and insanity-causing and evil-causing? It's the literal byword for dark magic. In raw material form, as Warpstone, it's used by Skaven. It's... it's uranium if uranium was also evil and hateful.

Using it, or tinkering it, is taboo in so many cultures.

It's... it's literally dark magic. That's what it's called in the Dark Elves armybook, outright; the Lore of Dark Magic.

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See that's where i disagree, Dhar isn't hateful. it's destructive, but hateful is the wrong adjective that ascribes to it an intent which simply doesn't exist. Also warpstone isn't used in rawform by the skaven, they do actually process it to make it more stable to use it for their purposes. Sure it's terrible stuff to use, I don't disagree. Although you're wrong about it being taboo in many cultures. Pretty much all of the humans pre-teclis didn't know it was a thing and hated arcane magic in general. The Elven culture is 50/50 on whether it should be used with the Woods elves doing so if they think it's needed.

Semi last point, keep in mind the layman idea for Uranium and such is that it causes mutations and wield magical things as well. It's not for nothing that a bunch of super hero origin stories in comics are "Radioactive spooders, gamma ray burst" etc. So if you're wondering why Dhar has the properties of being mutagenic well that's pretty much it.

On that note, I wonder what happens if one of the We bites some one, will we have SpiderDwarf running around?

Dwarves obviously have a rather tangential view given they can't use arcane magic any way.

 

[DocMatoi]

Chaos magic

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You mean like dhar?

 

[Chronic]

That doesn't mean Dhar is safe, because obviously no one really has the tools to be able to deal with it properly. Excepting the dwarves and the Elves that can just walk around ignoring it completely.

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Should be noted that even the Dwarves don't seem to be completely immune to the effects of Dhar. If the Dwarves were, Alaric wouldn't have gone (even more) insane over creating the Nemesis Crown, they would be using Warpstone as base material for runic artifacts since it is apparently extremely good at that and Dwarves wouldn't have a problem with us using the second secret on any Dwarfhold they intend to reclaim later.

 

[Andmeuths]

On the subject of starting a branch Wizards College I will say that I will vote against it, though I'm not opposed to it developing naturally out of the Duckling Club.
Currently what we have here in the Club is a resource, an invaluable resource both to us for getting extra assistance with the various things around the Karak, and also for Journeymen of all houses, to prove their mettle and do field research in a safe-ish environment. It is a turn investment, that it is, but I will emphasize the word investment. Especially since we're already seen a payout in what they can bring to the table.

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Narratively, I think it's far more satisfying if the Branch College emerges from the Duckling Club gradually growing in reputation, infrastructure, and resources to support Journeymanlings and fellow Magisters in Karaz Ankor, that Mathilde decides to formalize to ensure she builds something that strengthens the relations between the Colleges and the Dawi, that outlasts her time in Karaz Ankor. Basically, the Branch College just makes it so that Mathilde can eventually create an impactful institution with humble beginnings that outlasts her time in Karaz Ankor, and indeed outlast her lifetime if need be.

In that sense, it feels very cheap and cheesy to cash in our Imperial Favor right onto the Branch College right now, but if we are looking at at a time period similar the 20 turn timespan we spent in Stirland, then the Eight Peaks Branch might well be our legacy to Karaz Ankor, in the same way the Watch is to Stirland.


P.s: On Mechanical Concerns.
I presume too, that our level of involvement in the College isn't an all in or nothing, but rather something that can be calibrated just like our involvement in the EIC, with various trade-offs and consequences. The idea that we are going to be chained to doing Headmistress stuff for the rest of the quest I think is alarmist thinking - on par with the idea that our estate would be an eternal AP time sink , or that our commitment to the EIC was not out for re-negotiation, both of which has proven not to hold true. The whole point of a Branch College is to create an institution that continues across the tenure of office-holders after all - becoming Headmistress in perpetuity defeats the point of a formal branch College.

 

[Neshuakadal]

The mindset is the mindset needed to Wield Shyish at all, because if you use Shyish you have to maintain that mindset in your head and soul. Are you going to say that to counter spell a life lore user a Death wind user must think about using death to use life and therefore they're going to get Death-Life arcane marks and corruption? I don't think it can work that way.

I have to ask why you think Shyish tongs exist at all based on this. In BoneyMs setting a necromancer is capable of using dhar directly to cast necromancy spells.

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I will admit that your sentence about counter spelling was very confusing and most certainly contained nothing close to what I said. Counter spelling is most definitely not using tongs to manipulate another wind of magic. If it was why would we need to research using tongs to manipulate other winds? Since one does not manipulate other winds to counter spell then it must be something else.

Using a wind means holding that winds mindset. We don't really know what the mindset would be required to wield a wind via proxy. If that mindset drifts too far away from the mindset needed to wield Ulgu then there could be nasty consequences for Mathilde. It's nothing something I am really interested in exploring.

Look man, every single point you are raising has been raised and debated to death. If this is Vlad's conclusion, then Vlad was wrong. Go read the discussion. I am officially tired of correcting people's misconception of dhar use when it comes to mathilde.

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Look man, I have kept up with the discussion as well as I could. I am raising one specific point. People seem to handwave this argument each time and go back to just talking about external dhar. External dhar is not the problem. It's the mindset of using dhar. BoneyM has been almost deliberately vague about whether the mental changes of using dhar are caused by dhar or exacerbated by dhar. If the changes are exacerbated by dhar then those mental changes are likely inherent of being willing to use such a dangerous and powerful energy.

I also encourage you to go back and read the discussion from BoneyM and the vague yet very specific answers he uses. He has answered each question exactly as it has been asked and has offered no more information about the subject.

I too am officially tried of people just talking about the dhar effects our fancy belt burns off and not the other very possible effects of dhar.

Eh fair enough, any way I think it's important to realise that Dhar isn't the devils tool in the way you're implying it's more akin to magical enriched uranium.

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There are many people that think we should never have advanced nuclear studies and used it for energy and weapons. Just because you can safely use a dangerous substance doesn't mean you should.

I'll note that we just witnessed a method born of natural evolution defeat warpstone just this update with the We, who literally hold warpstone inside their body and aren't evil.

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I will also note that they don't seem to use it and simply seal it away.

 

[bookworm702]

This thread: "I want to wrap things up so we can be done with Stirland and start focusing on Karak Eight Peaks."

Also this thread: Spends half their social time in the Empire, and a third in Stirland.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

[X] Loremaster: Expert on beekeeping

[X] Francesco Caravello, proud leader of the Undumgi
[X] Kragg the Grim, who you could likely convince to start gloating.
[X] Empress 'Heidi', to see if you can snatch a private moment to speak honestly with her.
[X] The Amber College, to see how your donation of Lustrian eggs is going.
[X] Try to find Kasmir in Sylvania.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

Should be noted that even the Dwarves don't seem to be completely immune to the effects of Dhar. If the Dwarves were, Alaric wouldn't have gone (even more) insane over creating the Nemesis Crown, they would be using Warpstone as base material for runic artifacts since it is apparently extremely good at that and Dwarves wouldn't have a problem with us using the second secret on any Dwarfhold they intend to reclaim later.

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I mean the issue with using the 2nd secret in the dwarf mountain with the trolls is that it was suggested we use it to detonate a massive chunk of the warpstone. The GM response was that we'd be down a mountain I think you can infer the specific thing they'd hate about that.

You mean like dhar?

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Chaos magic is divine in nature, they don't have to use Dhar it just provides a power boost. So No. Not like dhar.

 

[FlyingScanian]

This thread: "I want to wrap things up so we can be done with Stirland and start focusing on Karak Eight Peaks."

Also this thread: Spends half their social time in the Empire, and a third in Stirland.

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THat is because this thread, like most quest threads, is horribly shizophrenic. Some of us want to be done with everything in the Empire. Those are presumably not the ones voting to spend time with all the imperial characters (with the possible exception of the Empress, because ). Anotherpart (I'd argue the better part, but I'm horribly biased ) like our imperial friends, all want to spend more time with them. Just so happens, occasionally you get crazy divides like these.

 

[Thor's Twin]

I'm getting this really strange impression that people advocating for experimenting with Dhar use are focusing on whether we can do it safely rather than focusing on whether we should be doing it.

 

[Omegahugger]

I mean, yeah.

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Yeah, we could do so much better than him!

The social turn lets you decide who or what you want to see more of, without any mechanical consideration.

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Oh thank goodness.

See, your original post said no mechanical advantage, which is very different from not having any mechanical consideration. And here I was fearing I was trickng people by saying there were no downsides to voting Abel!

 

[Quest]

Look man, I have kept up with the discussion as well as I could. I am raising one specific point. People seem to handwave this argument each time and go back to just talking about external dhar. External dhar is not the problem. It's the mindset of using dhar. BoneyM has been almost deliberately vague about whether the mental changes of using dhar are caused by dhar or exacerbated by dhar. If the changes are exacerbated by dhar then those mental changes are likely inherent of being willing to use such a dangerous and powerful energy.

I also encourage you to go back and read the discussion from BoneyM and the vague yet very specific answers he uses. He has answered each question exactly as it has been asked and has offered no more information about the subject.

I too am officially tried of people just talking about the dhar effects our fancy belt burns off and not the other very possible effects of dhar.

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This is the GM quote on the purely mental effects of dhar. It compares it directly to the effects of the other winds. This is also without the mental protection that necromancy offers. I've already spoken about this at length.

The mindset to channel Dhar takes you to a dark place. But so does the mindset to channel Shyish. The mindset to channel Aqshy gives you temper problems. The mindset to channel Ulgu gives you a flexible view of the truth and a hazy grasp of boundaries.

If Mathilde spends all her time channelling Dhar for a week, that'll put her in a messed-up headspace, just like if you spent a week researching serial killers or something. The Colleges teach Wizards how to ground their sense of self in companionship and small joys, the same way they teach them to ground rogue magic in copper and iron.

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[Prospalz]

I look at variations of form in what is supposed to be one species and one mind, and starting to wonder we we accidentally adopted Warhammer Fantasy version of tyranids in their deep infancy.

We need to ask We if it is capable of breeding new worker castes intentionally.

 

[Quest]

I'm getting this really strange impression that people advocating for experimenting with Dhar use are focusing on whether we can do it safely rather than focusing on whether we should be doing it.

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Strange isn't it? It's almost like they aren't advocating for experimenting with Dhar.

 

[Garlak]

Semi last point, keep in mind the layman idea for Uranium and such is that it causes mutations and wield magical things as well. It's not for nothing that a bunch of super hero origin stories in comics are "Radioactive spooders, gamma ray burst" etc. So if you're wondering why Dhar has the properties of being mutagenic well that's pretty much it.

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Dangit! Do you realize what you've just done?? D:

Skaven. Supervillain. Origin stories.

I don't want to deal with Skaven comic book supervilains! They're already comic book supervillain enough. Our only hope would be for Thanquol to self-sabotage harder than he has ever self-sabotaged ever before, ever.