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How would Clan Mors know that something that looks like a Clan Eshin Sorcerer, walks like a Clan Eshin sorcerer, and casts spells like a Clan Eshin sorcerer is actually part of the famously non-spellcasting dwarf force above their heads?
They don't smell like a Skaven. No seriously, Skaven senses of smell are super strong, and part of their inter-species communication is based around whatever kind of musk their secreting. You can walk like a Skaven, talk like a Skaven, kill like a Skaven, but if you don't smell like a Skaven, you aren't one.
 
Depends on whether they had any observers up above who could look at the events and seen several wizards within dwarf army.

I am not sure banking on literally zero rats observing battle for Citadel, for example, is the best idea.
There wan't anything that was blindingly obviously a Grey Wizard specifically, and there's no guarantee that whoever saw it would spread that information, much less that their leadership would believe and incorporate it into their strategy. They additionally possess no means of confirming of the existence of a Grey Wizard, much less that they would waste such an asset on an improbability when their in the middle of open conflict.
 
@Quest Your specific argument was that Boney will interpret the plan according to the thread's intent, which is obviously just infiltration, and not explosive shenanigans at all. Now that we find out that it's not that clear, it is prudent to concede that specific argument and maybe note for the future that what's clear to you might not be clear to, say, the author of the original statement or the thread in its entirety.
I'm not sure which argument you are referencing exactly? Can you expand on this please?
 
I mean, for the battle of the Citadel, all anyone would have seen was a flash of light or two from a window, and then orcs getting wrecked by humans.

I might be recalling incorrectly, but I was under the impression that Skaven sorcerers are very rare.

Skaven magic users are very common in some clans, particularly Clan Skyre and Clan Pestilens, reasonably known in others, like Clan Eshin, and very rare in warlord clans like Clan Mors. They're at war with one of the clans with common magic users, and we'd probably have seen signs if Pestilens was active. Even if some skaven know there are human magic users about, they won't have told their enemies.

They don't smell like a Skaven. No seriously, Skaven senses of smell are super strong, and part of their inter-species communication is based around whatever kind of musk their secreting. You can walk like a Skaven, talk like a Skaven, kill like a Skaven, but if you don't smell like a Skaven, you aren't one.

Members of Clan Eshin don't smell like anything, as they have their musk glands surgically removed to prevent exactly this kind of detection (and presumably other measures to remove the rest of their scent, otherwise the stated reason wouldn't work). The fact that Mathilde doesn't smell like anything when using Substance of Shadow makes her more like a member of Clan Eshin, not less.
 
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They don't smell like a Skaven. No seriously, Skaven senses of smell are super strong, and part of their inter-species communication is based around whatever kind of musk their secreting. You can walk like a Skaven, talk like a Skaven, kill like a Skaven, but if you don't smell like a Skaven, you aren't one.

Doesn't Clan Esshin surgically remove the organs containing musk to make themselves "invisible" to Skaven scent senses?

Edit: Clan Esshin'd
 
However the skaven respond, having Mathilde there watching what they do so she can tell the spiders about it will help. Even if the spiders would succeed anyway the intelligence Mathilde can supply would make it easier and demonstrate the value of the alliance.

The failure modes you suggest seem incredibly unlikely. We've already been talking to the spiders for months, and have thoroughly scouted the area they'd be going. Mathilde should have described it to them already to check whether it would work.
You are basically saying that the option can't fail and I can guarantee you that isn't true. There are failure modes, and those failures modes do not boil down to 'skaven showed up and beat the spider what good,' it's simply too restricting from Boney's point of view. If we fail the roll, we will have failed the roll and Boney will come up with a justification. Justifying by having Mors, currently pressed on three sides, jumping on us seems the least likely in general (though not if we also catastrophically fail rolls on the action with Johann) while failure to adequately find/choose/prepare an appropriate location seems much more likely. Probably there are other options that I haven't considered but unless they are directly related to Skaven attacks the proposed synergy still fails to be.
 
You are basically saying that the option can't fail and I can guarantee you that isn't true. There are failure modes, and those failures modes do not boil down to 'skaven showed up and beat the spider what good,' it's simply too restricting from Boney's point of view. If we fail the roll, we will have failed the roll and Boney will come up with a justification. Justifying by having Mors, currently pressed on three sides, jumping on us seems the least likely in general (though not if we also catastrophically fail rolls on the scouting actions) while failure to adequately find/choose/prepare an appropriate location seems much more likely. Probably there are other options that I haven't considered but unless they are directly related to Skaven attacks the proposed synergy still fails to be.

I'm pretty sure we've even had some options without rolls in the past. Not everything has a chance of failure. This may not be one, but there may be some aspects of it that are guaranteed to work.
 
It is rather unlikely that a stealth mission
The intent is investigation, not sabotage. Math will only do damage if she needs to while grabbing some valuable tech
If we settle the spiders into Citadel zone, disrupting Clan Mors lets the spiders get established better
Then yeah, that's fine.
Nonplussed at the claims that the poke mission can be both stealthy and unlikely to impact Clan Mors and also at the same time be disrupting Clan Mors to help the spiders resettle Action succeed.

Not as nonplussed as I am at the discussion about chain-reacting Skavenblight, but it's there.

I'm still struggling with the craziness of teaching the spider-hive to write- how is that a good idea? Is there a solid argument for why this technology should be freely given to a completely alien mind with what seems a pure predator/prey conception of relationships?

Plus, Semaphore spiders is way cuter than web-filled hive-nests full of spider-scribes.
 
Thanks for the feedback, but I don't actually see you voting for Magical Mathilde in the tally. Are you just expressing an opinion regardless, or is it failing to catch your vote properly?
Oops, I misremembered what I actually voted for. I have now edited your plan into my vote.

And I see that Johann is already studying the webs, so disregard my comment, please. Note to self: Read before you post.
 
Nonplussed at the claims that the poke mission can be both stealthy and unlikely to impact Clan Mors and also at the same time be disrupting Clan Mors to help the spiders settle Action.

Stealthy enough that it doesn't trigger them to believe the dwarves are attacking them seems quite compatible with that. As is specifically disrupting their response to the spiders and leaving their other fronts alone.

I'm still struggling with the craziness of teaching the spider-hive to write- how is that a good idea? Is there a solid argument for why this technology should be freely given to a completely alien mind with what seems a pure predator/prey conception of relationships?

IT understand alliances with not-We. Having records of how much worse things were before the dwarven alliance rather than forgetting it seems sensible.
 
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@BoneyM is it permissible to put a conditional in the vite to say that Mathilde focuses on investigation/theft unless the spiders become under too much pressure, at which she progressively focuses more on disruption until their situation is resolved?

I really don't want to open the door to conditionals. If the problem is minor Mathilde will take care of it since she's in the area, if it's major it'll be a separate vote.
 
I'm not sure which argument you are referencing exactly? Can you expand on this please?
Sure. I won't continue this line of conversation after that, though.
[X] Plan Citadel Focus

Voting this for now. Establishing a working relationship with Johann is a good idea and while sabotaging Mors may not be a good idea, Johann's action specifies investigation and our intent is to work with him. I doubt the GM will punish us for a bad word choice.

Focusing on 'poking' is just repeating the same sort of baseless overthinking that came up when we were voting to reforge the armor or similar previous votes. Mathilde is not stupid and can take her own precautions. Boney can also filter our intent.
I do second this. This is the same as people assuming Math start performing sabotage due to 'poking' the skaven. Boney isn't a literal genie.
 
I'm still struggling with the craziness of teaching the spider-hive to write- how is that a good idea? Is there a solid argument for why this technology should be freely given to a completely alien mind with what seems a pure predator/prey conception of relationships?

Plus, Semaphore spiders is way cuter than web-filled hive-nests full of spider-scribes.
I mean, they don't have a pure predator/prey conception of relationships. They have the concept of cooperation with other beings like them. We have persuaded them that we are beings like them, despite not being spiders.
But you also discover the word for an alliance, or at least a non-aggression pact - 'many-food'. When there's plenty of food to go along, We and other-We - other hives of the creature - need not fight. Very straightforward, or at least you think so - Esbern and Seija seem utterly lost.
I am way, way more worried about dwarves and humans exploiting them than I am about them turning on us. They seem to think of us as other-We, but I think it is very unlikely that dwarves will think of them as other-dwarves, with the rights and respect that entails.

Semaphore spiders are indeed the cutest fucking thing imaginable, but we'd need a personal action to do that and we're pretty squished. I believe the plan, confirmed as possible by QM, is "Max teaches them to write and then teaches them dwarven semaphore next turn once writing is established."
 
Particularly since with the Second Secret we can just poke one, watch them all explode and then blame the legendary unpredictably of Skaven tech
Does Mathilde even know that Warpstone slowly transforms into crystallized Dhar? Unless it gets covered in the Liber Mortis, I don't see Mathilde ever researching Warpstones beyond how to dispose of.
 
I really don't want to open the door to conditionals. If the problem is minor Mathilde will take care of it since she's in the area, if it's major it'll be a separate vote.

In some ways an interrupt for a vote in the mid-turn is an even better result. It allows dynamic tweaking of the plan in response to events, which should alleviate some of the concerns opponents of the plan have about Mathilde just following orders.
 
Nonplussed at the claims that the poke mission can be both stealthy and unlikely to impact Clan Mors and also at the same time be disrupting Clan Mors to help the spiders resettle Action succeed.

Not as nonplussed as I am at the discussion about chain-reacting Skavenblight, but it's there.

I'm still struggling with the craziness of teaching the spider-hive to write- how is that a good idea? Is there a solid argument for why this technology should be freely given to a completely alien mind with what seems a pure predator/prey conception of relationships?

Plus, Semaphore spiders is way cuter than web-filled hive-nests full of spider-scribes.
I mean, I don't see the risks? What specific dangers are you worried about?

So far as I can see neither skaven nor greenskins are likely to try to communicate with the We in writing, so there's little risk of betrayal. I can only see a risk if we start giving them books to read, or someone else does and given the generally consensus seems to be to put them underneath the Citadel it seems unlikely anyone else is going to stumble on them to do so. Or feel inclined even if they did.
 
They don't smell like a Skaven. No seriously, Skaven senses of smell are super strong, and part of their inter-species communication is based around whatever kind of musk their secreting. You can walk like a Skaven, talk like a Skaven, kill like a Skaven, but if you don't smell like a Skaven, you aren't one.
If I was a Skaven hiding myself from other skaven the first thing I would do would be hide my scent somehow.
 
Lets look at the Mathilde and Johann roll a 01 and have to run home chased by all of Mors scenario. The Dwarves in under-citadel zone are going to be alert and battle ready because they know there are Skaven near and because they don't trust the We yet. The We will be moving in hunters first then web spinners to set up and fortify and finally non-coms who will be furthest from the threat surface. Because of the space the We will be taking up the Dawi hard positions will be further forward than otherwise. (That means we get to allies sooner!)

As we run the first friendlies we pass will be We hunters. They won't stop what follows us but the We can afford to lose them or it wouldn't send them out. Second the hard positions - these would normally be what we expect to stop a Skaven organised response but Matty rolled a 01 and Mors break through at serious cost in time and rats. Third will be the new We nest, less organised than they will be in the future but also containing fewer of the We breeders and other non-com castes, it will further bog down and thin the rats but there's a reason theyt always chose to avoid these fights so lets say they get overrun. Finally the wave hits the interior under-citadel forces - they will be stopped somewhere under the citadel, the question is at what cost in Dwarf blood? In this case they were already at heightened readiness and the We bought them extra time to organise.

Costs: The We has lost the bulk of the spiders they had committed to the new nest, they are badly damaged but, because not everything had moved, they survive. The Dawi lost their front lines but thanks to the We their overall losses are low for this kind of action. At various points in the sequence there will be a couple of magisters making a stand which should help a lot.

We're going to keep studying the Skaven so this could happen on some later turn if it happens at all. In later turns the We nest will be a much harder nut to crack and there may be some actual coordination between spider and Dwarf forces but on the other hand enough of the We will be present that they could die. Sooner or later too, there will be a serious Skaven attack from that direction anyway - that one won't have wizards on hand.

I have to say though, this is a worst case picture because a Skaven force pushing an attack home that far will take catastrophic losses and they don't like doing that. Indeed I think it would take something worse chasing them rather than any riling up Mathilde and Johann can achieve.

TL: DR
If Mathilde and Johann provoke a massive rat reaction with a critfail, the We takes most of the pain, saving many Dwarf lives in the process, but lives. This is acceptable to me. It's always a risk living and acting in K8P.
 
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There wan't anything that was blindingly obviously a Grey Wizard specifically, and there's no guarantee that whoever saw it would spread that information, much less that their leadership would believe and incorporate it into their strategy. They additionally possess no means of confirming of the existence of a Grey Wizard, much less that they would waste such an asset on an improbability when their in the middle of open conflict.
Yes, and during first battle (for Karag Nar) we weren't even seen.
Existence of human wizard in general was however sort of seen. And Skaven are, if nothing else else, paranoid.
 
The way I see the synergy is that Mathilde makes a MAP of known Skaven patrol routes and force concentrations, and finds a place for the spiders to take advantage of isolated parties. When what heavy assets the Skaven can spare are sent to clean out the Spiders, Mathilde assassinates the heavy weapons teams and spirits off with their gear for Johann, leaving the now vulnerable Skaven to be picked off.
 
I'm still struggling with the craziness of teaching the spider-hive to write- how is that a good idea? Is there a solid argument for why this technology should be freely given to a completely alien mind with what seems a pure predator/prey conception of relationships?
So that people can communicate with then and they can learn more about more complex relationships than predator/prey. For example, if their silk turns out to be valuable, we could maybe trade it for goats that they can eat. This would open up possibilities for long-term cooperation, even after Karak Eight Peaks will hopefully be cleared of Skaven and Greenskins.

If we ever want to do more with the Spiders than have them hunt Skaven, we first need to establish lines of communication.
 
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