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With hindsight, our choice of Laurelorn for the Waystone Project seems to have been pretty lucrative. Laurelorn had a relatively huge untapped potential/labor force of not just archmages, but legendary mages, as well as artisans and magical academics. Politically, their position was fraught because of the isolationist/modernist split, but that was an issue we and Thorek worked on and Kadon aced.

And when the time came to start producing waystones, Laurelorn had a ready supply of skilled labor capable of simple High Magic to produce waystones with. If we had gone with Karak Eight Peaks, we'd have faced the problem of limited runesmith labor capable of what we'd needed. Being able to make Thorek a partner in the project despite it being in Laurelorn played to our strengths, since we had inroads with Thorek already and the influence to do something major for him to bargain for his concentrated assistance.

It also had the benefit of solving the problem with Middenland/Nordland/Laurelorn in the greater scale of things. Building relations with Laurelorn has been a big boon as well, particularly building relationships between Laurelorn and the Colleges of Magic. The experience they've seen has shown the Colleges to be full of people liable to think favorably of the Eonir and have skills useful to their goals. The Treaty of Bohka Palace also shows that while Laurelorn alone is overshadowed by Ulthuan, Laurelorn combined with the Empire and Kislev is a different story--in this sense, Laurelorn is further seeing the dividends of connecting with the wider world.
 
Building relations with Laurelorn has been a big boon as well, particularly building relationships between Laurelorn and the Colleges of Magic. The experience they've seen has shown the Colleges to be full of people liable to think favorably of the Eonir and have skills useful to their goals.
I'd imagine that the grey lords and archmages are probably especially interested in collaborating and stealing trading for the secrets of a bunch of wizards who have such wildly divergent and idiosyncratic ways of casting. Sure, stretching to understand things like Rite of Way probably won't be their one cool trick for ultimate power, but they're nerds. They just saw that one wizard was able to create a spell that was funky and interesting, and she did it with only decades of training. Multiply that by every Magister who's ever lived, then by how long each one kept making up cool new stuff? And sure you can subtract the spells that aren't shared due to military and strategic interests, and the fact that some wizards are more boring, but we still just showed a bunch mad scientists that human wizards are a renewable source of research topics.
 
With hindsight, our choice of Laurelorn for the Waystone Project seems to have been pretty lucrative.
I don't disagree with the notion that it was probably the best pick, was in favor of it at the time and nothing we've learned so far has convinced me otherwise, but with things like these that hindsight isn't likely to tell us anything else, as long as we don't fail.

Things went well and we are in Laurelorn, so we've seen all the good things coming out of this decision.

We've not seen the good things that could have come out of the other locations for hosting the project, because they never happened.
We've not seen much of the bad the other locations could have averted (one utilitarian assassination aside), because they are not our problem and not in our wheelbarrow.
We've few ways to just which benefits of the Laurelorn location would have been utterly inimitable and which merely unlikely, more difficult or costly.

What hindsight tells us is that things have been going well in the areas we kept our eyes on, which we would have worked hard to guarantee regardless of where we would have put focus otherwise.
 
@hugo239111, I think the disconnect here is that the argument you claim to be making (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you would personally like the Eonir more if they were more considerate towards human peasants, and you think that doing so would be the morally correct thing for them to do. That's fine in itself, but even though you've phrased this as your personal opinion, when people have disagreed with you, you've debate it with them like it's a matter of objective fact that can be debated. And while moral culpability can, to an extent, be debated, the arguments you are making seem to keep veering into implications that there's various forms of imminent disaster that will befall the Eonir if they keep acting in the way that they are, and that draws even more disagreement.

I think what it comes down to is that the Melian Dialogue is being recreated in this thread, with you as the Melians arguing right and wrong, while some of the rest of the thread is playing the roll of the Athenians, pointing out that 'right is only in question between equals in power'. In the past, the the Eonir were one city against an Empire, suffering what they must; now they are one great city and its allies against a single province, and now in turn they are doing what they will.

You are correct and it was veering into justifications instead of explanations. I've always been a fan of the "little people" perspective and how easily it was being dismissed wasn't sitting right with me. I was veering way too hard into the doom and gloom rather than sticking to the the fact that dismissing people can lead to consequences.

The journeymen for the tributaries would have been dismissed and ignored except Mathilde told people make them feel welcome and they can help you. The Undumgi, I mean Codrin was planning on helping most of them die. For how much this quest sits firmly on the stitch in time makes all the difference it felt weird how much the grey areas were being ignored.

Athenian actions during that time led to a coalition backed by the Persians to stomp them down, even ignoring the morality its just bad politics to kick someone when they are down.

Sorry for the word vomit but I'm really into history and the consequences of it might makes right arguments get stuck in my craw. I probably should have just referenced Basil the 2nd, blinding 15,000 Bulgars was technically the correct thing to do, and it led to bulgarian resistance for an extra four years of war and their willingness to join the ottomans when the time came.
 
You are correct and it was veering into justifications instead of explanations. I've always been a fan of the "little people" perspective and how easily it was being dismissed wasn't sitting right with me. I was veering way too hard into the doom and gloom rather than sticking to the the fact that dismissing people can lead to consequences.

The journeymen for the tributaries would have been dismissed and ignored except Mathilde told people make them feel welcome and they can help you. The Undumgi, I mean Codrin was planning on helping most of them die. For how much this quest sits firmly on the stitch in time makes all the difference it felt weird how much the grey areas were being ignored.

Athenian actions during that time led to a coalition backed by the Persians to stomp them down, even ignoring the morality its just bad politics to kick someone when they are down.

Sorry for the word vomit but I'm really into history and the consequences of it might makes right arguments get stuck in my craw. I probably should have just referenced Basil the 2nd, blinding 15,000 Bulgars was technically the correct thing to do, and it led to bulgarian resistance for an extra four years of war and their willingness to join the ottomans when the time came.

One thing to remember is that Warhammer Fantasy is not our world. There exist in all places and at all time covert organizations possessed of fanatical followers, terrible magic and the aid of immensely powerful and insane gods whose agenda is the destruction of life and sanity which means that all societies across the world have some way of dealing with that. Be it the Loremasters of Hoeth, the Order of the Silver Hammer, the Longshanks of Taal, the Star Chamber in Marienburg or hundreds of others across the world these are institutions that can and will also enforce social norms against more benign forms of unheval.

It would take a very skilled rebel cell indeed to get past the Grey Order and the Witch Hunters who are hunting such things as a matter of course as potential Lahmian pawns or Chaos proxies. Not so say that such couldn't exist of course. Ranald in his guise as the Protector is defined by that struggle and he is one of the major gods of the Old World... but the Grey Order is also full of his followers.

If some kind of popular upwelling of support against our efforts happens I suspect we would know by Aetheryc means sooner rather than later.
 
You are correct and it was veering into justifications instead of explanations. I've always been a fan of the "little people" perspective and how easily it was being dismissed wasn't sitting right with me. I was veering way too hard into the doom and gloom rather than sticking to the the fact that dismissing people can lead to consequences.

The journeymen for the tributaries would have been dismissed and ignored except Mathilde told people make them feel welcome and they can help you. The Undumgi, I mean Codrin was planning on helping most of them die. For how much this quest sits firmly on the stitch in time makes all the difference it felt weird how much the grey areas were being ignored.

Athenian actions during that time led to a coalition backed by the Persians to stomp them down, even ignoring the morality its just bad politics to kick someone when they are down.

Sorry for the word vomit but I'm really into history and the consequences of it might makes right arguments get stuck in my craw. I probably should have just referenced Basil the 2nd, blinding 15,000 Bulgars was technically the correct thing to do, and it led to bulgarian resistance for an extra four years of war and their willingness to join the ottomans when the time came.

I mean history also has many many examples of what happens to a country/peoples that throws its hands up and lets foreign settlers take over their land without kicking them out. History and uh human experience in general shows evictions are something that requires force. Does the "moral right" of human commoners from the Empire overwrite the "moral right" of the Eonir to exist? Your arguments honestly seem to prioritize the wellbeing of Human Commoner X while many of the thread sympathizes with that of the elf's
 
I do understand this argument, I really do. I don't know how exactly you would fix this problem and am not going to pretend to know how to. Nordland is going to be a hotbed of tensions, opportunities and possible problems, killing cultists is all well and good but as long as they have a steady stream of angry peasants it's not going to improve the situation. The witch hunters and others can certainly stop the symptoms, but they aren't going after the disease of disaffection. That is why I like Roswita so much, she is taking away the ability of the Vampires to leech off of society and in doing so improving everyone's lives.
It doesn't, my argument isn't about what happened in the past, Nordland screwed up and is paying the price. Laurelorn did what they thought was best to reclaim their territory, fair enough. The main concern is the future, I mean the US absolutely flattened Japan but the anti-American sentiment was greatly mitigated (there is still a decent amount especially with US military bases) because of the Marshall plan. The problem doesn't go away by ignoring it, it's all well and good to cut off the problem at he past with witch hunters and such but it doesn't address the underlying issue.
 
I do understand this argument, I really do. I don't know how exactly you would fix this problem and am not going to pretend to know how to. Nordland is going to be a hotbed of tensions, opportunities and possible problems, killing cultists is all well and good but as long as they have a steady stream of angry peasants it's not going to improve the situation. The witch hunters and others can certainly stop the symptoms, but they aren't going after the disease of disaffection. That is why I like Roswita so much, she is taking away the ability of the Vampires to leech off of society and in doing so improving everyone's lives.

Everyone has a steady stream of angry peasants, it's just these ones will be somewhat more likely to hate elves instead of their noble overlords, if they come from the part of the province near the border with Laurelorn.

As for the way to fix things go burn down the local section of the Forest of Shadows and given them that land, no one if going to miss that but the beastmen and the Vampires.
 
If Theoderic Gausser somehow managed to take and hold the city, the Empire might shrug and restore the title of Baron of Westerland and make him the Elector Count of Westerland, but that still wouldn't make Marienburg part of Nordland - it would just mean that Nordland and Marienburg were under the control of the same person.
But for a brief glorious moment, someone was dual weilding Runefangs.
 
As for the way to fix things go burn down the local section of the Forest of Shadows and given them that land, no one if going to miss that but the beastmen and the Vampires.
And the giant spiders, forest goblins, shambling hordes of undead, dire wolves, vampire bats...

If the Forest of Shadows was so easy to burn down, it stands to reason it'd have gotten burned down at some point in the last two thousand years of being a breeding ground for every variety of nasty bugger native to Empire soil.
 
And the giant spiders, forest goblins, shambling hordes of undead, dire wolves, vampire bats...

If the Forest of Shadows was so easy to burn down, it stands to reason it'd have gotten burned down at some point in the last two thousand years of being a breeding ground for every variety of nasty bugger native to Empire soil.

I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying if you want to give the Norlanders something to replace the forests they were pushed out of that is where you should go. I am not proposing we actually spend AP doing it though from this talk of the Norland Hedgewise it might be that the Elector Count is looking in that direction.
 
I'd imagine that the grey lords and archmages are probably especially interested in collaborating and stealing trading for the secrets of a bunch of wizards who have such wildly divergent and idiosyncratic ways of casting. Sure, stretching to understand things like Rite of Way probably won't be their one cool trick for ultimate power, but they're nerds. They just saw that one wizard was able to create a spell that was funky and interesting, and she did it with only decades of training. Multiply that by every Magister who's ever lived, then by how long each one kept making up cool new stuff? And sure you can subtract the spells that aren't shared due to military and strategic interests, and the fact that some wizards are more boring, but we still just showed a bunch mad scientists that human wizards are a renewable source of research topics.
There is a lot of inspiration to be found in working with wizards whose souls are partially made up of the Winds themselves, to the point that they physically manifest traits in line with the Winds in their bodies.

Imagine you work with the Winds for a living, and you have the lifespan to explore all avenues you know of. Then you gain access to an entire institution of people whose instincts are partially drawn directly from the Winds you work with and can explain their thought processes when performing magic or inventing new spells. It's a (big, granted) step removed from being able to talk to the Winds themselves.

Rite of Way is an excellent example of the potential to be found: it's such a radical idea that uses innovative methods with instinctive grasps in how Ulgu works in unusual ways. It was invented by one person at speeds an elven mage would consider blistering. MAP was invented purely on instinct in the heat of the moment, then codified after the fact, an occurrence which would be beyond novel for elves.
 
Originally in WFRP 4e, each career's first level had 8 skills. To complete the career, you needed at least 5 advances in all of them. Later, new careers were given 10 skill in their first levels, and to complete the career, you needed 5 advances in eight of them.

Hedge Witch was one of the original careers, so it had 8 skills. However, when Archives 3 was being made, the career got updated, gaining Secret Signs (Hedge) at level 1, with the book saying it lets hedge witches share information, and allows travelling hedge witches to spot local ones. However, during proofreading, it was pointed out that this only added up to 9 skills, and that a 10th would need to be added to bring it up to the new standard.

When the book released, it added not just Secret Signs (Hedge), but also Language (Belthani), retaining the same explanation. I think there's two ways to look at this. The first is that it was an off-the-cuff addition that doesn't make too much sense with the millennia-long domination of Reikspiel. The second is that, regardless of when or how the skill was added, it makes sense for a hinterland tradition of knowledge keepers to retain their traditional language and speak it as a second tongue.

The thing about the latter view is that it describes druids just as much as it does hedge witches, so how did the Cult of the Mother lose knowledge of even spoken Belthani so much more thoroughly than the Hedgewise did? I think the answer might be hinted at in WFRP 2e: Tome of Salvation page 7:
Most believe the Cult of the Mother died out long ago. They are wrong. Not only do the Great Families of my Order continue Her traditions, but the sickle is born by others, which most of whom hide far from prying eyes. [...] Indeed, a full third of the Druidic Families stubbornly spurned Teclis, refusing to believe his 'truth,' and fled into the dark forests, just like the prehistoric tribes of old. But those who remained, listened, and then eventually understood. Not long after, the Jade Order of Magic was formalised, and we were its numbers. We didn't change our beliefs -- indeed, we practise the Old Faith still -- but we understood them for what they were: a twisted reflection of the truth. Since then, our role as Nature's Guardians has brought us into contact with many others who believe they are the Children of the Belthani. They are all, I am quite sure, just as wrong as we were.
To begin with, it seems like the Cult of the Mother didn't think of themselves as Belthani, but rather as the Belthani's successors or descendents. The druids who rejected Teclis' teachings didn't "return to the dark forests they came from", they "fled to the dark forests like the ancient tribes did", implying that the Cult of the Mother were not hidden forest-dwellers before Teclis arrived. This is reinforced by saying that, now that Jade Wizards were forest dwellers, they were encountering a bunch of people who think they're the Belthani's successors/descendents.

Two thoughts come to me. First is that maybe the Cult of the Mother weren't direct inheritors of the Belthani's traditions. Might be that, in the millennia after the original Belthani druids' passing, rural folk looked at the oghams left behind, the stories of druids and ancient gods, the few Belthani phrases and songs they inherited, and the abundant Ghyran of the natural landscape and cobbled together a new druidic tradition, emulating what came before. Neo-druids basically. That's why they have such scant knowledge of the Belthani language where the Hedgewise, who actually do have an unbroken line of knowledge, can speak it fluently.

The other thought that comes to me is that the Cult of the Mother is conceited as all hell. Erowin is dripping condescension at every turn, even towards the forest druids the Jade Order newly encountered, who may very well be direct inheritors of the Belthani druids who fled into the forest, and we know from Panoramia's mum that they don't think men are suited to Ghyran at all.

Archives 3 p56 says "witch hunters and Jade Wizards have driven Old Faith druids into obscurity by claiming that their nature gods are truly Chaos daemons"*, which I originally found baffling given that jade wizards themselves were, and in many cases are, Old Faith druids. However, with the context of Erowin's words, I think the Cult of the Mother may see itself as a domineering major cult, one that knows the truth of their faith (Ghyran/the Earth Mother is the only part of the Old Faith worth bothering with) and that they're owed superiority because of it, and that anything challenging that position is evil and needs to be suppressed.
*Context. This is in a one-paragraph section called Dark Druids, which says there were druids who had mortuary rituals, that they repurposed waystones into animal totems, and that some barrows are guarded by those totems. I think it's possible there was more written in the section that was cut for page space before it reached the proofreading stage. Also, earlier in the page, it said that there were jade wizards who are sympathetic to the Old Faith.

In conclusion, could be the Cult of the Mother aren't direct inheritors of Belthani druidic traditions while the Hedgewise are direct inheritors of Belthani Hedgewise traditions, which is why the Hedgewise speak Belthani way better than the Cult.

EDIT: Could be that direct inheritors of Belthani druidic traditions still exist and speak Belthani too, descended from the druids who fled into the forests, went to ground (like the Cult of Ahalt), or, if we're taking DPG's lore (which we aren't), took sanctuary in the dwarf kingdoms.

EDIT2: Winds of Magic page 78:
'We druids, who study the Lore of Life, know that [the Jade Wind] is the single most powerful and single most important wind. It is the one element that all living things must possess. It emerges from life just as it gives life; it is found in the blood of creatures, and in the sap of plants. It is the very stuff of life. [...]
– Tochter Grunfeld, Jade Wizard Lord
Not beating the 'conceited' allegations.
 
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@Andres it's an interesting theory, but I am not sure how easily one could rebuild a full casting tradition from scratch like that, especially one that interacts with something as volatile as Wasystones. On the other hand... Warhammer does not lack for long lived entities. I could well imagine something like a well disposed fey bridging the gap in magical insight, but not language because what do the fey care about the intricacies of human language? It would also explain the issues the Cult of the Mother have with Athel Loren if said fey was a rival to those who dwell in that wood.

At the end of the day this is just one expliation, they would have had all kinds of links to the past that did not include a full lexicon.
 
I've decided that the flying boat bores me more than the armor of Von Tarnus. I still don't like the armor, but it's still more relevant to Mathilde's style, I guess. I might add it on later. I'd prefer we just bank the favor because there's nothing I'm actively interested in, but that's not happening.

[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[X] Break College Favor/ Tenure
[X] Plan Tower of Doom! and Research!
[X] Save the boon until we choose our next project
[X] Plan: Next arc boon.
 
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[X] Armor of von Tarnus
[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[X] Break College Favor/ Tenure

A couple months too late to matter, I'm adding Break College Favor to my votes. I think it'd be cool and fun to do lots more collaboration with college wizards.
 
[X] Break College Favor/ Tenure

Breaking college favor is like, the thing this was for initially, and also boat is boring and something we can get via the company we set up which is much more in tune to "get a boat"
 
[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[X] Break College Favor/ Tenure
[X] Elector-Countess
[X] Armor of von Tarnus

[X] Plan Salty Requests
-[X] Jades: the techniques for utilizing Winds from waystones
-[X] Brights: Collaborate with Karak Eight Peaks and Zhufbar engineers to experiment with the use of enchantment on steam engines
-[X] Celestials: bankrolling our upcoming trip to Lothern for magical curios and research material
-[X] Golds: Enchanted We-silk robes for defensive combat, possibly with Windherding
-[X] Lights: Full partnership/mutual access to the Light College's libraries with KAU
-[X] Amethysts: Pure CF
-[X] Ambers: The secrets behind Flock of Doom
-[X] Greys: Help from appropriate mages for developing future spells and enchantments.
 
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[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV
[X] Break College Favor/ Tenure

[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk V
-[X] Jades: the techniques for utilizing Winds from waystones
-[X] Brights: Collaborate with Karak Eight Peaks and Zhufbar engineers to experiment with the use of enchantment on steam engines
-[X] Celestials: bankrolling our upcoming trip to Lothern for magical curios and research material
-[X] Golds: Enchanted We-silk robes for defensive combat, possibly with Windherding
-[X] Lights: Full partnership/mutual access to the Light College's libraries with KAU
-[X] Amethysts: Pure CF
-[X] Ambers: The secrets behind Flock of Doom
-[X] Greys: Help from appropriate mages for developing future spells and enchantments.
Not that it's likely to matter at this stage in the game, but as I mentioned before I would strongly prefer that if people make a variant of a plan I made and numbered not to simply increment the number, because that implies that it's my successor to Plan Pickle Requests mk IV. Other folks have done things like "Plan Not Pickle Requests Variant with Apparitions" and "Plan Pickle Requests mk IV - Armour Study Variant".

Separately, I also don't think the techniques for utilizing Winds from Waystones are likely to be anywhere near as useful for Greys as they are for Jades, because Jades basically always have something useful and prosocial to do with extra power from tapping a Waystone (i.e. "enhancing the fertility of crops") whereas Greys don't, but that's a matter of taste.
 
[X] Plan Pickle Requests mk IV

Approval voting for this because it's the only option in the running that gets even close to using this favor well, and even then only in comparison to the leading two.

[X] Break College Favor/ Tenure
[X] Elector-Countess

Fundamentally changing our relationship with the Colleges or elevating a Wizard to the position of Elector-Count should be the kind of thing we're using the reward on, not on things we can just commission ourselves using our accumulated wealth and connections.
 
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