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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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fictionfan said:
Depends on how you count. Landed nobility (bigger lands) are likely much richer than us in an absolute sense, but they also have government level expenses and therefore likely have less liquidity.
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There's also the various cults and high ranked clerics in the richer ones, depending on how one defines "rich" anyway. And some of the richer burghers should be Willhemina level. And the Gold college even journeymen make ton of cash, not more than us, but I imagine there are more than a few Magisters, and maybe very skilled-but-not-so-much-in-magic journeymen with more money. And of course, I imagine most LMs are just as rich, excluding Grey Order ones. (although the Grey Order as a whole is prolly richer than us, I do not think these money are owned by any person).

Of course, a lot of things depend on definitions. If we define WEBMAT as partially of fully owned by us and value it based on its assets and define its Waystones and research as assets, we are definitely richer than anyone not an Elector Count. But this kind of bullshit financial wizardly is probably not the kind of thing anyone would think of in a medieval setting.
 
Counting all the books in Matilde's library, I'd put her at about 0.01%

I think land does not really count in the same way in a feudal society, because it cannot really be bought in the same way as in our modern world.
 
I don't think there's meaningful similarities between the 1% of the IRL modern day and the 1% of the Empire. There are fundamental differences in how both societies measure wealth and how their rich got rich. The Empire, flawed as it is, still allows for waaaaay more social and economic mobility than our current IRL society does, for reasons which would be actually exhausting to elaborate upon.
 
In a way, asking how rich Mathilde is the wrong question. She's rich enough that she counts among the people who play for power and influence, not sustenanceor even luxury, and money is just one vector there.

Her lands don't count except for prestige, but the EIC does. Not so much for the money it gets her, at least right now, but for the logistic power and influence network it's built up. In the view, the expenses can be as useful as the profit, because the expenses go somewhere, and being able to direct that has a power of it's own. Just like effectively being the logistics arm of the Stirland army.

Being among the best and most respected wizards counts for something, too. Mostly on prestige and rep, I would guess, though being able to get shit done, personally if required, has power of it's own.

But the biggest contributor would be her connections. From Kislev to the dwarfs to the Eonir to the Empire, she could go there and have their highest leaders perpsonally listen because she's proven herself to them. I'm not sure anyone else can claim that.
This factor does get reduced because she doesn't have a hold on any of them, she can't tell them to do anything. But the access alone is a lot.
 
Parabola said:
I don't think there's meaningful similarities between the 1% of the IRL modern day and the 1% of the Empire. There are fundamental differences in how both societies measure wealth and how their rich got rich. The Empire, flawed as it is, still allows for waaaaay more social and economic mobility than our current IRL society does, for reasons which would be actually exhausting to elaborate upon.
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I mean... not really, it allows economic mobility for ultra lucky geniuses and somewhat for wizards if it doesn't kill them first, but our world is not so different.
 
Calculating Mathilde's net worth is complicated by the fact that a lot of her stuff is priceless. The sort of priceless where money cannot buy it, but if it could you could buy a reasonably sized nation for the same amount.
Runic masterpieces from the hand of Kragg the Grim. A College magic item so potent that it must be integrated into her body so it cannot fall into enemy hands. A personalized sacred relic. A mountaintop home that, even without the semi-divine superweapon, required legend levels of good will to build. A forest city home that stands in flagrant defiance of the laws and traditions governing said city. A library featuring books dating back to the time of the Old Ones. One of the most impactful prisoners since Nagash bagged a talkative Druchii. Temporarily a set of Orbs that the Colleges would gladly go to war over.
Mathilde would likely top 100, if not top 10, if her bling was counted.
 
Angelform said:
Calculating Mathilde's net worth is complicated by the fact that a lot of her stuff is priceless. The sort of priceless where money cannot buy it, but if it could you could buy a reasonably sized nation for the same amount.
Runic masterpieces from the hand of Kragg the Grim. A College magic item so potent that it must be integrated into her body so it cannot fall into enemy hands. A personalized sacred relic. A mountaintop home that, even without the semi-divine superweapon, required legend levels of good will to build. A forest city home that stands in flagrant defiance of the laws and traditions governing said city. A library featuring books dating back to the time of the Old Ones. One of the most impactful prisoners since Nagash bagged a talkative Druchii. Temporarily a set of Orbs that the Colleges would gladly go to war over.
Mathilde would likely top 100, if not top 10, if her bling was counted.
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While all those are absurdly valuable, (Except the integrated college item, that one can be produced which means it has a price, its just military technology, so its just about as valuable as, say, a modern tank would be, very valuable but not even close to absurdly valuable) none are worth a decently sized nation, unless we are counting the Border Princes. Maybe the superweapon, but that one technically belongs to K8P.

Kragg had made other masterpieces, and while many people would give their left arm for it, I doubt a Tilean Prince would give their country.

Mathilde is not the first nor last person to get a personalised sacred relic from a god. Hers is good, but not really worth a nation, even if it would work for everybody else.

The mountainhop home and forest city home are indeed unique, but very, very much not as valuable as a nation, think of it this way, would you trade the poorest nation (that is not a micronation) of the world for a super villa in the richest?

Mathilde's library is not the only super library, and even if it is the best (I won't lie its in contention right now), it is not worth a nation.

Qurech isn't even valuable, his info is, and his info were not extracted because Qurech was Qurech, but because Mathilde was Mathilde. Queekish, however, is not valuable to anyone who does NOT have a nation, so selling a nation for it would not work. Maybe part of one, admitedly.

The Orbs are, again, not something worth a nation. Rather, they are like nukes, something worth a lot TO a nation.

Mind you, most of these are worth a border princedom or a noble title higher than the one she has or more money than we ever had since the start of this quest or maybe a city burgher lord style, were she to exchange them. But decently sized nation is overly optimistic, for all their pricelessness they wouldn't even be able to buy Marienburg.

Now the patent for manufacturing Waystones COULD actually be worth that much, but we are not the sole owner of that and never could have been.
 
Parabola said:
Yeah, Malekith at least has convinced an entire society of elves to follow his Might Makes Right view of the world. He at least has that going for him. Nagash has...

W'soran and Arkhan, I guess? And Krell? Maybe a few other power-hungry followers? The ghoul dudes he ran into once, I think? Everyone else that follow him must be either coerced or actively enslaved. We may as well be talking about someone who probably had a negative Diplomacy score.
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I get the context that this is in, al la WHFB Pre End Times, but I do think it's even funnier if looked at from an AOS context. Big Bone Daddy finally thinks he's going to get the world all to himself once he becomes a god, only to then be forced to work in pantheon. Then he thinks he can pull another of those moves during the age of chaos and it again fails in immidealtly getting him what he wants...

Such that eventually what he's left with is just running a very big government of bickering people, which he was trying to avoid in the fist place, except now they are undead!

I mean the guy needs his governmental services in the forms of the Ossiarchs, tax collection, recycling, probably road maintence too IDK.
AND EVEN WITH ALL THAT, shyish still gives him problems, the Flesh-Eater courts might work with him but they are one of those ''with freinds like these one doesn't need enemies'' sorts of allies.
Oh and of course he never beat the skaven, they never even technically died like most factions being weird ghost things, etc.

He's *never* getting a fully complaint, reality under his thumbs doing exactly what he wants he's just way too stubborn to ever recognize it.
 
BurnNote said:
Mathilde is a 1%er in the literal meaning just because she is a knight. There's certainly more than 100 people for every titled knight.
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Maybe not. IIRC I saw a claim that about 3% of the populace were nobles around the 1500s.

Angelform said:
A mountaintop home that, even without the semi-divine superweapon, required legend levels of good will to build. A forest city home that stands in flagrant defiance of the laws and traditions governing said city.
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Mathilde owns neither of those. IIRC the tower is a lease, and the house in Laurelorn is property of the Queen and has been made available for the use of the Waystone project.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Mathilde owns neither of those. IIRC the tower is a lease, and the house in Laurelorn is property of the Queen and has been made available for the use of the Waystone project.
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I think she might actually own the penthouse, given the wording:
Boney said:
To distract yourself from your unseemly wealth, you go shopping for a tower.

...okay, perhaps that only makes it seem worse, but it is something that needs to be done. As Karag Nar has demonstrated, there's a lot of real estate being snapped up right now and if you want something nice you better make a move early.

[ ] Karag Nar penthouse
The first possibility that leaps to mind is the uppermost dwelling of Karag Nar, with a beautiful 360-degree view and a commanding position. The Black Orc Warboss' reasons for taking it for his own are obvious, and though it will take some time and effort to clear out the possessions that hadn't been safely stowed in the King's Armoury, it is bursting with potential and would allow you to keep a careful eye on the Undumgi and Death Pass.

*snip*

Once chosen, there'll be a great deal of paperwork to fill out. Those few manlings allowed to live in Dwarfholds are typically given 'only' a lifetime lease, and for you to have an actual permanent claim to what you've decided upon takes a lot of carefully-worded documents that basically say 'no really, we mean it, forever'.
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Glau said:
...


The problem is that literally everything past the nurgalite minimum is excessive to someone. Even saying good morning is excessive to some, who think that you shouldn't talk if you don't have anything meaningful to say.



This. Absolutely this.

It is kinda funny that the goddess of excess got attached to eating and sex, the two things that are absolutely baseline necessary for species to continue. I suppose it is because you can't not have them that people worry so much about how much is too much.

Would be funny though, if Slaanesh won because the act of creating a child started to fall under their domain, edging out Rhya and the other fertility gods into just bearing and raising children.
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*Adds this to pile of notes on why the Horned Rat is such a jealous god, if Slannesh got metaphysical tendrils into Skaven breeding the princes domain could at least potentially balloon*
 
It might be better to look at her money in historical terms. How much has she spent? How much has been spent on her projects under her authority?

We aren't electoral count level, maybe, but we definitely top the rulers of most Tilean city-states.
 
Feim said:
good comes from somewhere in the middle of all the dark gods.

the chaos gods, the actual entities built from the emotions their parts of the warp are made of, are the extremes.

rage, pleasure, despair, hope. these are the foundations of the dark gods. everything else simply grows from that.

there is no extreme you can go to, that is not evil. not by warhammers reckoning.
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Sure but doesn't this also imply a shifting baseline made of perceptions of norms compared with extremes, one which may have changed drastically since the breaking of the polar gate? And what would make up this baseline be one surely affected by every culture on Mallus/World That Was?

I can see why trying to make sense of the warp is inherently maddening. :-(
 
My guess is that a few of Mathilde's possessions could be sold for more than 100 000 gold and find buyers:
- The Penthouse,
- Our Sword,
- Our Belt.

And quite a few could probably be sold for tens of thousands at least:
- Our EIC shares (probably worth hundreds of thousands on value and potential, but you have to factor in the relatively low yearly payments due to the mangerial style and that much of the potential value isn't realised yet),
- Our Dwarven Boons,
- The Gyrocopter,
- The Seed.

It's not even a question that Mathilde is in the "1%".
 
Just doing a re-read and came across this!
Boney said:
Bound Familiars

When a suitable animal is found, binding is a gradual process that requires the Wizard to remain in close proximity to the would-be familiar for a prolonged period, spending no more than an hour or two per day away from it. The binding process can be as quick as a few days or as long as several months. When bound, familiars tend to develop a distinct personality and increase massively in intelligence until they approach that of a human. They also can gain strength and durability beyond that of a normal example of their species. Some develop sharper senses, the ability to speak in Lingua Praestantia or to read and write, and often develop deep interests in subjects ranging from the everyday to the esoteric.

Beyond this, there are a range of Powers that familiars can develop; one will appear as the bond is formed and others can be developed over time.

Aethyric Reservoir: The Familiar can absorb a spell targeted at itself or its master, holding it for up to several days and disgorging at will at a new target.
Link of Psyche: The Familiar and the Master have their minds linked, giving them the ability to communicate without words and increasing the cognitive ability and willpower of both as long as they are both conscious.
Lucky Charm: The Familiar and Master both tend to be more fortunate.
Magic Focus: Spells can be amplified through the Familiar, doubling one of its quantitative effects - range, duration, area of effect, and so on.
Magic Power: As long as the Familiar lives, the Master is more magically puissant.
Master's Touch: Spells can be cast through the Familiar - touch spells can target what the familiar is touching, the familiar's eyesight can be used to target spells, and so on.
Master's Voice: The Master can speak through the Familiar's mouth, both as a means of communicating and to cast spells if the Master is somehow prevented from speaking.
Voice of Reason: The Master becomes less prone to miscasting.
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Can I please ask why we have not learned more of these? If it is a familiar obsession thing I am fully down for it for some more picks from this list.
I can only assume it has been changed since?
 
xXxBlueViperxXx said:
Just doing a re-read and came across this!


Can I please ask why we have not learned more of these? If it is a familiar obsession thing I am fully down for it for some more picks from this list.
I can only assume it has been changed since?
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It's a fear of Familiar Obsession, yeah.

And, well, there are other things that Mathilde can do that can increase her power without needing to risk something like that.

Also, 4 of the remaining 6 are only really of much use if Wolf was accompanying us to the battlefield, and there isn't really much worth in that.
 
Nimbus said:
To be fair, Mathilde ends up in close combat very frequently, and Wolf is, in fact, a big (and very good) wolf. There's probably at least a bit of worth in it!
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Wolf is substantially more stabbable then we are, less capable of stabbing, and probably not much for magical infiltration.

If we get deep enough into Familiar Obsession we'll actually be forced to bring him everywhere we go.
 
xXxBlueViperxXx said:
Just doing a re-read and came across this!


Can I please ask why we have not learned more of these? If it is a familiar obsession thing I am fully down for it for some more picks from this list.
I can only assume it has been changed since?
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Boney said:
Every increase in Wolf's powers (not skills or abilities, powers) comes with a risk to gain an obsession. It does have degrees; it will start at a malus to some random rolls, and at its worse will consume an action a turn. It is not really 'treatable' because the 'obsession' would be entirely correct that Wolf is actually utterly crucial to a major portion of Mathilde's power. The only way to wind that back is to wind back her bond with Wolf. You could think of it as very similar to an arcane mark.

Spacing it out would not make a difference either way.
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If you think about it, not getting 'familiar obsession' is the less sensible reaction to getting more familiar powers. There's a friend-shaped animal that literally has the other half of your soul in it and gives you several superpowers, how do you not be the sort of person who shows off pictures of them to complete strangers?
 
I'm pretty sure Mathilde is in the top 100* most important persons in the Empire, which given the Empire's population would actually make Mathilde more equivalent to the top.. um... (100/Empire's Population)%, which probably makes her like <0.01% in wealth, just looking at it conservatively.

*Filled by people such as the Emperor, Empress, Lord/Lady Magisters, Arch-Lectors, Elector Counts/Countesses, and wow is there so much nobility..

Most of her net worth is in things which are literally priceless, too, like a book with secrets that could completely destroy the Empire, stuff like that.
 
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