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While this could be the case to a very high degree in canon it is not in this quest, we have seen Ranald and he acts like a sapient being with his own independent goals and motivations, not like a hollow echo chamber for his worshipers. Gods may still be influenced somewhat by their worshipers in an echo of mortals getting a divine mark say, but they retain their fundamental existence which means that if Verena is Hoeth or Ranald is Loec than what's changing is how the humans worship them, not the god themselves.
"Human gods are, more or less, complete entities. they have a theme, but if you asked ulric what his opinion on something completely outside his domain he'd probably have an answer a person would say."

If i have already acknoledged something in my original post, in this case that human gods act like people, please do not repeat it to me as if i didn't.
 
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"Human gods are, more or less, complete entities. they have a theme, but if you asked ulric what his opinion on something completely outside his domain he'd probably have an answer a person would say."

If i have already acknoledged something in my original post, in this case that human gods act like people, please do not repeat it to me as if i didn't.

That does not make sense to me sorry. You cannot both be a complete entity and not have opinions on vast conceptual swaths.
 
Then I guess a lot of people - if not most of them - aren't complete entities. It is incredibely common to not have opinions on stuff, and only form an opinion about something when it comes up, based on vibes and assocations and the company you're currently in.

Most people do not think about things and default to the 'common sense' on a lot of issues, which is to say cultural biases, that is not the same thing as genuinely not having an opinion. It should also be noted that gods are very, very old, they will have had a long time to form opinions even on things beyond their core domains.
 
Most people do not think about things and default to the 'common sense' on a lot of issues, which is to say cultural biases, that is not the same thing as genuinely not having an opinion. It should also be noted that gods are very, very old, they will have had a long time to form opinions even on things beyond their core domains.

The thing you quoted says they do exactly that. It says they have opinions like a normal person on stuff outside their domain.
 
Most people do not think about things and default to the 'common sense' on a lot of issues, which is to say cultural biases, that is not the same thing as genuinely not having an opinion. It should also be noted that gods are very, very old, they will have had a long time to form opinions even on things beyond their core domains.
Yeah thats exactly what he was saying thought.
 
The thing you quoted says they do exactly that. It says they have opinions like a normal person on stuff outside their domain.

That does not make sense because all the gods of the Old World stretch out over dramatically different cultures. Ulric is prayed to in Norsca and the Empire for instance or Myrmidia in Estalia and Tilea not to mention that the cultural consensus if one can even be reached shifts with time in contradictory and incoherent ways.
 
RE: Warpstone

We probably should think about it in terms of quantity, because larger amounts of Warpstone OR high ambient Dhar alters physics in significant ways.

-Very Low density(Warpstone particulates in isolation in a non-Dhar rich environment)

Based on known behaviours, this should have the warpstone particles sublimate over time to become ambient Dhar. If there are functional leylines, this ambient Dhar is drawn away, if theres no functional leylines, the Dhar would tend to pool in dark places - we've already established this, Dhar attracts all the Winds after all, including itself, but at this density its not going to be able to overcome the Winds natural repulsion, and may be even naturally dispersed by sufficiently potent ambient Hysh or Ghyran.

-Low density(Warpstone pebbles in isolation)

This should be broadly speaking, stable. Some of it will sublimate, but the sublimated Dhar will be drawn towards the nearest large body of Dhar(the warpstone) and promptly redeposit itself. Its not large enough to capture significant amounts of the Winds, there would be absolutely glacial growth, if any. So it depends on the ambient environment. If its consistently Dhar free, then it'd slowly shrink over time.

-Moderate density(Dhar rich environment, or large quantities of warpstone particulates[which shortly after becomes a Dhar rich environment anyway])

At this point its going to be able to start capturing ambient winds to form more Dhar, and warpstone is going to be deposited absolutely everywhere, you aren't going to get rid of this from passive environmental action here, theres enough of it to start forming effects like spontaneously rising undead, mutating plants and animals, etc. If you have waystones near enough then it'd peel off the ambient miasma(which means allowing for natural dispersal over time again), but if they fall, the warpstone embedded in so much of the environment WILL restore its state in fairly short order.

-High density(Either warpstone meteors, significant warpstone deposits or its Chaos Wind/Moon season again)

Mostly what examples we have of this is MOSTLY stable-ish. After a certain point additional Dhar seems to go tend to into corrupting the environment rather than spreading wider. So you get a spot of Very Corrupted Shit, and it WILL actively fight you if you try to change that.

-Very high density(you have bigger problems than Warpstone, or you're in the Chaos Wastes)

You have bigger problems than long term warpstone pollution at this point, deal with those problems first. Or flee.

And something that isn't even slightly adapted is the stylites - the anchorites on top of a pole. Sitting up there and doing nothing except presumably thinking holy thoughts makes some kind of sense in a theology where all of the reasons why doing so sucks are actually the evil physical world lying to you. It doesn't make any kind of sense if your religion is about the life and legacy of Hammer Guy.
TBH it makes perfect sense…if they were wizards instead, because sitting at the top of a pole doing nothing but thinking holy thoughts would actually lend useful assistance towards getting in touch with Azyr and Hysh.
 
That's a very interesting explanation for how fasting came to be. Every time I've heard about it, fasting seemed to be another way of showing your devotion to god, and while that probably is a big reason for it, the material world being theologically inferior in some way probably plays a part.

Hell, this sort of specific "physical world Evil" duality is probably a big reason for why several major religions are focused on the idea of ideal afterlives.

Not to mention of course religions like Buddhism which are some of the most extreme examples of "physical world Evil".
I think I can provide a perspective on fasting

Trying to provide a Jew/Christian perspective on Fasting, I like the words from Isaiah 58:3-12.

A subsection of this is:
5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord?

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy rearward.

9 Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;

10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:

TLDR:
So, a lot like Codex said, with fasting both being a form of prayer that assists focus, and also a reminder to help people that are having a hard time.
 
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TLDR:
So, a lot like Codex said, with fasting both being a form of prayer that assists focus, and also a reminder to help people that are having a hard time.


it's also just generally something that's good for your health.

sure, there are spiritual reasonings for fasting. but properly done, it also just makes you healthier. and that's reason enough to do it on its own.

and like with most religions, stuff like that tends to come about in their texts as a way to make sure people don't forget it. or ignore it. because people might not pay attention to or find other sources, but generally speaking you can rely on people of your religion to have read or heard the scripture.

so you put health advice, and how to avoid general trouble, in the scripture.
 
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There's precedent for this. In Rogue Trader (1st edition 40k, not the TTRPG), Stormboyz who fell too deep into their yooful rebellion of being obsessed with strategy and military discipline would fall to Khorne, because Khorne embodies all war, not just the cunning brutality of the ork gods. They'd become exiles from ork society, only able to join a Waaagh as temporary mercenaries.
I have been told that not only is this not a thing, Chaos didn't exist in 1e, just the Warp with various warp entities. Looked at Rogue Trader to verify.
 
if you arn't going to read what i wrote, do not reply to me.

Alright let's take this from the top. I had assumed this:
"Human gods are, more or less, complete entities. they have a theme, but if you asked ulric what his opinion on something completely outside his domain he'd probably have an answer a person would say."
...meant the opinion of the worshiper i.e. no opinion of their own. It was later brought to my attention that you may have meant 'the median opinion within a society' which I surmise from this post was the case

That still does not work in my opinion:
  1. Firstly because even between what we would consider one culture people have vastly different opinions on a variety of topics moral and practical, most people in the empire would consider those fellows three villages over foreigners and strange ones at that. Seriously look at what the provinces think of one another. Now apply that to the whole continent. The Hypothetical Median Ulrican worshiper would be a weirdo in most of the places Ulric is worshiped because opinions swing so wildly on all sorts of topics.
  2. Secondly If gods are self aware and aware of this mechanism then every single god would have an interest in cultural stasis outside of their domain so they would not be slow-motion mind controlled into differing opinions by any kind of societal change
 
I think what you are missing is Mathilde is the expert. If say Troll Country is a bad idea for the present design of Waystone it is our job to window it out. Yes it's not literally the worst place we could place them, those get windowed out by the common sense filter in the background, but using bespoke better than Golden Age Waystones to make barely productive grazing land is not the best use of them even though Boris would pay for them.
How exactly am I missing that Mathilde is the expert? Boney doesn't give us obviously stupid options. Remember that Ulgu Tongs were a write-in. As you say, Mathilde is the expert and Mathilde thinks that Troll Country is a good place to use the waystone. Mathilde winnows obviously stupid options from the list. Mathilde believes that it is feasible enough to mass produce the golden age storage waystone to cover Troll Country with them. Look at how deploying a waystone to Bretonnia isn't an option. Or how deploying this waystone to the Gryphon Wood or Nordland isn't an option.

It's not as if Mathilde doesn't know how useful Troll Country would be in the first year after waystones deployment. Boney said directly to you that marginal grazing land is hugely better than chaos wastes, which is what Troll Country is.

Okay, I can see where the misunderstanding has come from.
Just about everything you said here is either irrelevant, or wrong.

Mathilde does not think that this waystone is best for civilized places where it is unreasonable to suspect that a number of them will be destroyed. Because that does not describe the places where she chose to build these waystones at all. Mathilde is not so stupid that she could not see the issues with "Archmage spending time to turn chaos wastes into barely useful land." That she doesn't see the issue implies that it isn't an issue. As she says, bottlenecks are a skill issue. The more waystones that get built quickly built the less archmages we need.

I did not say that the Kalti Delta is a good portion of Troll Country to deploy waystones too. That misses my point entirely. The Kalti Delta is entirely separate from Troll Country in the options Mathilde gave when deploying to Kislev.

[ ] Waystone: Deploy in Kislev (specify which: Praag Region, Troll Country, Kalti Delta)
[ ] Waystone: Other (specify where)
The current Waystone model has specific strengths and weaknesses, but these can be disregarded to start deploying them somewhere less suitable.

Mathilde thinks that the whole of Troll Country is one of the optimal places to deploy waystones to. Look at Sylvania and Praag Region. It is currently planned that several hundred waystones will be planted there. It's basically comparable to your description of Troll Country. And again, Mathilde thinks that deploying waystones to the entire province is one of the optimal uses of it. Trying to argue that the waystone is wholly unsuited for mass deployment where losses are expected over the whole is completely silly.

Boney how many waystones need to be made for Sylvania and praag
More than ten, less than a thousand. The exact number is for the QMs of the Elf Archmage Quests to figure out.
 
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How exactly am I missing that Mathilde is the expert? Boney doesn't give us obviously stupid options. Remember that Ulgu Tongs were a write-in. As you say, Mathilde is the expert and Mathilde thinks that Troll Country is a good place to use the waystone. Mathilde winnows obviously stupid options from the list. Mathilde believes that it is feasible enough to mass produce the golden age storage waystone to cover Troll Country with them. Look at how deploying a waystone to Bretonnia isn't an option. Or how deploying this waystone to the Gryphon Wood or Nordland isn't an option.

It's not as if Mathilde doesn't know how useful Troll Country would be in the first year after waystones deployment. Boney said directly to you that marginal grazing land is hugely better than chaos wastes, which is what Troll Country is.

There is a large difference between 'obviously stupid' and simply 'sub-optimal' I maintain Troll Country is the latter, though unlike the Gryphon Wood or Nordland there is someone who would pay the fantastical price for Troll Country.
 
Just about everything you said here is either irrelevant, or wrong.

Mathilde does not think that this waystone is best for civilized places where it is unreasonable to suspect that a number of them will be destroyed. Because that does not describe the places where she chose to build these waystones at all. Mathilde is not so stupid that she could not see the issues with "Archmage spending time to turn chaos wastes into barely useful land." That she doesn't see the issue implies that it isn't an issue. As she says, bottlenecks are a skill issue. The more waystones that get built quickly built the less archmages we need.

I did not say that the Kalti Delta is a good portion of Troll Country to deploy waystones too. That misses my point entirely. The Kalti Delta is entirely separate from Troll Country in the options Mathilde gave when deploying to Kislev.

[ ] Waystone: Deploy in Kislev (specify which: Praag Region, Troll Country, Kalti Delta)
[ ] Waystone: Other (specify where)
The current Waystone model has specific strengths and weaknesses, but these can be disregarded to start deploying them somewhere less suitable.
Mathilde thinks that the whole of Troll Country is one of the optimal places to deploy waystones to. Look at Sylvania and Praag Region. It is currently planned that several hundred waystones will be planted there. It's basically comparable to your description of Troll Country. And again, Mathilde thinks that deploying waystones to the entire province is one of the optimal uses of it. Trying to argue that the waystone is wholly unsuited for mass deployment where losses are expected over the whole is completely silly.
I also disagree with everything you've said here, from interpreting that option's text in that fashion, to so thoroughly ignoring fully everything I said about beachhead deployments you've tried to use them as counterexamples, and I don't care to argue this with you further.
 
Or it's just the opinion of the god, who is a person.

Idk one of the things I dislike about Warhammer fandom is a tendency to uncritically recite 'how the world is' when the actual conceit of the setting is that all we have are a pile of materials from unreliable narrators. It should be examined critically like real history rather than quoted like scripture.

There's so much productive discussion that could be had, but isn't, because speculation is presented as flat truth and contradictions are excuses for just so stories instead of critical examination.

It's one of the big reasons I love Boney's style, I wish more people would do it.

Mathilde is probably needed to ensure cooperation between factions where they need to work together to design a new Waystone that incorporates parts from different factions.

I mean, no, she isn't. They've all worked together with eachother at this point. Limitations here are a quest conceit not an actual thing. If we died tomorrow the project could and would continue without us because of the value it offers to the rulers.

Plus we are now in the 'mass manufacture's stage of this and all of our workers (save the dwarves) are quirky independent craftspeople with an emphasis on figuring out and doing their own thing. IE, academics and researchers. So I expect a variety of individual designs to be happening just from a sense of 'I can do that better'.

Warhammer has an Aristotelian morality which is to say good can be found in moderation

Which is something they only seem to remember when creating villians. There's nothing moderate about what Belegar did in canon. There's nothing moderate about a grail knight or a bright battlewizard.

Do we actual have any heroes that can be pointed to as paragons of moderation?

Based on known behaviours, this should have the warpstone particles sublimate over time to become ambient Dhar.

We still have not shown that warpstone actually sublimates. We know a gaseous form of dhar can be generated from it, but we don't know if the warpstone itself becomes dhar or if it just rips itself into dust creating dhar all around all the particles of warpstone, with the warpstone dust still remaining after.

Tests would be needed.
 
I feel like the problem with Vylmar was that there's no secondary pro-social aspect (that we know of) to bolster any arguments against proscribing.

Compare Ranald, where whatever else you feel about him, NOBODY wants to go without luck. Yes there's also a realpolitik-esque argument of "better that he's on the inside pissing out." If someone doesn't care about the "there are worse things to have in the criminal underworld than ranald" you've got the "do YOU want to be unlucky?" argument and if someone doesn't care about luck you've got the "There are worse things to have in the criminal underworld so we can just persecute his followers for their actual crimes without actually banning him", and a small enough people are unconvinced by both that Ranald gets to be a Fully Legitimate God despite being 75% Problems(tm).

Honestly I'd guess probably a significant fraction of the Vylmarites switched to running their hedonism orgies on Rhyan themes.

It depends what you think luck is. If luck is something that only happens when gambling, and generally everything else is fated, then Ranald gets no say about what happens on the battlefield, as that's the domain of competing war gods, and no say over weather our crops are hailed on, because that's the domain of weather gods, then many people may not think they need luck.
 
There is a large difference between 'obviously stupid' and simply 'sub-optimal' I maintain Troll Country is the latter, though unlike the Gryphon Wood or Nordland there is someone who would pay the fantastical price for Troll Country.
There isn't a fantastical price for the waystone though. We chose options that makes it cheap. The cost is 1 negligible, 3 low, and 1 moderate. Plus the cost of assembly. If the archmage labor cost a lot it would say that. We know that because Boney has already indicated that they were willing to have that component's difficulty decrease with time.

I also disagree with everything you've said here, from interpreting that option's text in that fashion, to so thoroughly ignoring fully everything I said about beachhead deployments you've tried to use them as counterexamples, and I don't care to argue this with you further.
I did not ignore it. I pointed that we were already putting this waystone out in the wilderness where there aren't people guarding it. From Sylvania to Praag Region. If we had chosen Troll Country we would have been doing that. Mathilde didn't see it as a problem worth mentioning. She thought deploying waystones to cleanse all of Troll Country played to the waystone's strengths. Do you think that every one of those hundreds of waystones being built is going to have a guard post built around it? This isn't Bretonnia. Obviously neither places are civilized where we can expect there won't be losses. There's only so much that you can call an entire province's worth of land a 'hot spot.'

Like... Troll Country and Sylvania are some of the most corrupted land on the entire continent. That's why Mathilde thinks it's worth it to deploy hundreds of these waystones to those areas cleanse them. And as more waystones gets spent, that storage becomes less and less of a bottleneck.
 
There isn't a fantastical price for the waystone though. We chose options that makes it cheap. The cost is 1 negligible, 3 low, and 1 moderate. Plus the cost of assembly. If the archmage labor cost a lot it would say that. We know that because Boney has already indicated that they were willing to have that component's difficulty decrease with time.

Requiring a high mage and a runesmith is makes it expensive because unlike the supply of gold the supply of 'magicians of the elder races' is rather inelastic.

It depends what you think luck is. If luck is something that only happens when gambling, and generally everything else is fated, then Ranald gets no say about what happens on the battlefield, as that's the domain of competing war gods, and no say over weather our crops are hailed on, because that's the domain of weather gods, then many people may not think they need luck.

I do not think most gods would want to encourage the notion that things besides gambling are fated. Without luck there is no countervailing narrative for the idea that everything is fated and well... the God of Fate is Tzeench.
 
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It depends what you think luck is. If luck is something that only happens when gambling, and generally everything else is fated, then Ranald gets no say about what happens on the battlefield, as that's the domain of competing war gods, and no say over weather our crops are hailed on, because that's the domain of weather gods, then many people may not think they need luck.
Luck is every broken wagon wheel, every horse and ox lamed by a misstep into a pitfall. It's every gun that misfires, every bowstring and limb that snaps. It's every messenger, outrider and cavalryman who gets lost on the way to where they were commanded to be. It's the dry branch that you didn't notice on the forest floor while stalking game.

Claiming any of those things to be fated to happen would seem a tad overdramatic, yes?

No one except the people who join the Knights of Everlasting Light would willingly be unlucky in their daily life.
 
Requiring a high mage and a runesmith is makes it expensive because unlike the supply of gold the supply of 'magicians of the elder races' is rather inelastic.
No? The people paying for it don't see that. They just pay gold to the waystone people and waystone shows up. They would understand that only so many people can do a job, which limits the approach, but there's only so much that high mages and runesmiths limit the deployment of waystones. Both the Stone Flower and Dwarven Rune are both simple components. The rune takes about a week or two to complete. The Stone Flower probably has a similar time. Laurelorn has enough spare High Mages at any given time to put out at minimum a hundred stone flowers a year (and that's with halving the number of High Mages stated to be free and doubling the higher estimate for the time it takes to make the rune). And Ulthuan has been involved in providing the expertise here. Dwarven Runesmiths have managed putting up waystones all across the continent before. Neither of these are significant bottlenecks at all.

It's the archmage/Von Tarnus equivalent that limits the waystone's deployment. Like, the Baron of Hintertupfingen doesn't understand magic. The Runesmith and High Mage don't affect his pocket, and neither do they really affect the time it takes. He would understand specialized labor, but it's not really this specialized labor that slows things down. And about the storage:

Boney, does Mathilde have in-universe misgivings about the production bottleneck?
No. Bottlenecks are a skill issue.
 
I have been told that not only is this not a thing, Chaos didn't exist in 1e, just the Warp with various warp entities. Looked at Rogue Trader to verify.
Not in the core rulebook, in the Realm of Chaos supplement.

Edit: that's for chaos being a thing. Khornate Stormboys are on page 14 of Freebooterz: Space Ork Army Lists
Not everything that was in first edition happened when the core rulebook was published in 1989.
 
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Mannfred's library would be a pretty natural fit for the top result of looting Castle Drakenhof. I won't reveal the full list, but a few of the other possibilities on the list were the chambers of Elize von Carstein, Ariette von Carstein, and Victor Guttman.
So I was looking trivia up and Ariette von Carstein was apparently a peasant turned into a vampire by Mannfred during his revival in 2505 IC according to canon timeline. Would this be a discrepancy as she wouldn't exist yet to have a room?

The closest thing to a general consensus among historians is that there was between one and four points of origin for humanity, the exact locations of which are hotly debated and wrapped up in nationalist sentiment: East, South, West, and Here.
(Fun option: all of the above! The Norscans arrived in the Old World separately and the origins of the Sylvanians are a bit of a mystery, so it could all be true at the same time.)
Are the Chaos-adjacent tribes like Norscans/Kurgans/Hung considered as a separate point of origin for humanity (North)? I could see scholars lumping the Kurgans/Hung as spreading from the East/Cathay, but Norscans seem to be distinct as not!Vikings rather than not!Mongols.

And as a non-sequitur question, I was wondering why the Kurgans still believed the Karak Dum Expedition was a Norscan tribe on a pilgrimage when they saw the steam-wagons. Did they really think Norscans built and used "metal longboats" with wheels, etc?

I do wonder if our work is sufficient to strengthen the vortex and keep the archmages within that Nkari won't have an easy time escaping.
I believe N'kari already escaped from the Vortex and invaded Ulthuan several times such as during the Great War Against Chaos in 2301 IC.
 
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