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So, there's this thing called theological dualism: a step beyond the mere existence of Good and Evil, but the idea that those two fundamental and opposing forces are baked into the nature of the universe, and literally everything is either one or the other. It's a very old idea - it might actually be the opposite of an idea, in that the concept of neutrality was a more 'advanced' idea that needed to be invented to rival the 'natural' idea of dualism, but that's a whole other digression - and you can find it in the bones of a lot of the old religions in and around the eastern Mediterranean. And even in the languages - the Ancient Greek word for 'good' could also 'brave' or 'competent', and 'evil' meant the opposites.

Then there's a specific subset of this dualism where one puts the entirety of the physical world on the Bad side of the chart. The human body is part of the physical world and so is Evil, therefore the things it wants must also be Evil, and the things it doesn't want must actually be Good. Most of the dualistic religions don't go this far in their mainstreams - it's not a very sustainable idea - but most of them have had it crop up at one time or the other. The prevalence of this idea within Christianity, how it got there, what other ideas it brought with it, and the whole sordid tale of it being variously embrace and rejected by various authorities for various and often cynical reasons is a whole field of study, but the short of it is that the idea has cropped up again and again over the centuries, and when it does the effect of it is various extremes of rejecting as much of the physical world as possible. It did this in quite a few times and places during the Medieval and Renaissance eras in Europe, and led to some of its more distinct institutions. Monastic orders isolate the holy from the endless sea of inherent unholiness that is the outside world, anchorites take it a step further, and flagellants go right into opposite land by saying that if your body says that food is good and pain is bad, then your worldly body must be wrong and it is actually fasting and injury that is needed.

The thing is, these are products of that set of ideas. If you scoop them up in the bucket labelled Memorable Medieval Stuff and dump them into your setting where Good has an entire rolodex and Evil has known names and addresses, you've created a problem. For its entire life Warhammer has been wrestling with the Cult of Sigmar morphing into Hammer Christianity if you leave it unsupervised for five minutes, because writers transplanting tropes from medieval Europe keep bringing in ideas that are completely alien to what the Cult of Sigmar actually is. A successful wrangling of this is how almost all monasteries in the setting have a specific purpose, allowing the aesthetic to be used without it clashing with the worldbuilding. A kind of eh handwave is the flagellants, where more recent lore generally says that they're a recent phenomenon brought about by the imminence of the End Times. And something that isn't even slightly adapted is the stylites - the anchorites on top of a pole. Sitting up there and doing nothing except presumably thinking holy thoughts makes some kind of sense in a theology where all of the reasons why doing so sucks are actually the evil physical world lying to you. It doesn't make any kind of sense if your religion is about the life and legacy of Hammer Guy. Climb down from that pole and do something useful, for Sigmar's sake. The physical world isn't evil! We know what it looks like when the physical world is evil, the streets start bleeding and the buildings start eating people! Also while we're on the topic the whole concept of what you're doing here is extremely Nurgle-coded!
 
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Interesting extension of that- when the spiritual (aether) is so easily seen as evil it's very weird that we don't have hedonism cults instead of ascetic ones.

Eating a lot or screwing a lot isn't really slaanesh as pride/perfection/extremism, after all- there's no self-improvement or pinnacle to drive towards, and gluttony/lust is stuff you do when you are wasting your potential rather than obsessed with being the most.

But the degree to which "focus on the material world to avoid unholiness" reverses Christian aesthetics means it's hard to make it work.
 
flagellants go right into opposite land by saying that if your body says that food is good and pain is bad, then your worldly body must be wrong and it is actually fasting and injury that is needed.
That's a very interesting explanation for how fasting came to be. Every time I've heard about it, fasting seemed to be another way of showing your devotion to god, and while that probably is a big reason for it, the material world being theologically inferior in some way probably plays a part.

Hell, this sort of specific "physical world Evil" duality is probably a big reason for why several major religions are focused on the idea of ideal afterlives.

Not to mention of course religions like Buddhism which are some of the most extreme examples of "physical world Evil".
 
Interesting extension of that- when the spiritual (aether) is so easily seen as evil it's very weird that we don't have hedonism cults instead of ascetic ones.

Eating a lot or screwing a lot isn't really slaanesh as pride/perfection/extremism, after all- there's no self-improvement or pinnacle to drive towards, and gluttony/lust is stuff you do when you are wasting your potential rather than obsessed with being the most.

But the degree to which "focus on the material world to avoid unholiness" reverses Christian aesthetics means it's hard to make it work.
I mean they absolutely do have hedonism cults, they're associated with one of the most evil forces in the setting. Which explains why you don't have many "good" hedonism cults, I suppose.
 
Yeah, it is my understanding that Warhammer flagellants are the way that they are because of the extreme stress of the End Times and the Storm of Chaos. There is some reasoning here - "the gods are angry at the world, and at us, because we're sinful/not good enough, so we must repent, we must take the fight to our enemies", etc, but it's not reasoning that evolves normally from the Cults and their tenets - it's reasoning born from collective trauma and fear. I guess living in a world with Dhar would make people a bit prone to that than the average? And OOC, yes, it's rather handwavy. GW wants flagellants and so they exist.

The canonical 'normal' extremist cults in the Empire are different from flagellants because they do evolve as the extremes of existing tenets. Some Shallyans punish themselves because they believe they take too much pleasure in the world and they can't properly help others unless they undergo some suffering; some Ranaldians decide to leave literally everything about their lives up to luck; some Taalites and Rhyans take the avoidance of modern technology to extremes and essentially decide to live in the woods.

We've heard of some canonical extremist behaviors in quest-canon: some extremist Ulricans think humans should be able to survive winter to such an extent that they actively go destroy granaries (an extension of how Ulricans are meant to be self-sufficient); and some Sigmarites are overly-convinced of Sigmar's supremacy just because he is the God of the Empire.
 
As funny as this would be (and it would be very funny) for the sake of safety I was thinking that if Lord Seilph was interested in a trade (chickens, eggs etc...) we could write that Dhar Insight paper and then give him a copy of it to read. I do not think the Colleges would object to giving a paper on the theoretical use of Dhar to an elf who can in all likelihood use True Dhar. That way we can make it all above board if anyone should ask (we should not volunteer the information though).

If he's willing to swear to secrecy, I'd be happy to sell him the complete version.

I doubt our laundered Dhar insights are that special to a Grey Lord who's probably been using Dhar for five thousand times years. But necromancy itself and the Secrets may be.
 
Eating a lot or screwing a lot isn't really slaanesh as pride/perfection/extremism, after all- there's no self-improvement or pinnacle to drive towards, and gluttony/lust is stuff you do when you are wasting your potential rather than obsessed with being the most.
Slaanesh isn't only connected with Perfection and Extremism, it also holds a connection to Hedonism and generally giving in to your Desires.

Thus, hedonism cults would probably have a connection to Slaanesh. Even if it isn't direct, they would still be a dangerous and very slippery slope into Slaanesh's domains. The pleasure cults of the Druchi are a very good example of this (even ignoring Warhammer 40K).

As an aside, even if these hedonism cults somehow do not fall into Slaanesh's grasp, they will probably fall into Nurgle's. After all, as you yourself said, there would be a lot of stagnation and wasted potential involved.
 
I'd make the fancy populated-areas leyline-only option a copy of what we've already made, minus the riverine transmission component. The simple option for throwing out across the wilderness of Troll Country etc. would probably take the simplest option possible, and have no storage at all - we don't care if random grassland has a bunch of ambient dhar in a Storm of Magic, we care that over a very long period it's brought down to background levels.

It's not for heavily-contested areas like Praag, it's for areas that can't reasonably be defended at all.
As per Mathilde's beliefs, the current waystone we have is ideal for deployment in the Troll Country. Mathilde does not think that the Golden Age storage is enough of a bottleneck to inhibit deployment there. There's a lot of waystones to be deployed there.

Additionally, in what world is the Kalti Delta able to be reasonably defended? That's inhabited by Norscans. The point of putting waystones in the Kalti River Delta is to take a position and then fight over it. Kislevites don't live there. It's entirely new territory. Mathilde described it as a Norscan stronghold! Mordheim is similar.

Mathilde says that a waystone with the golden age storage is ideal to place in areas that are under high risk. That is to say, it is ideal for places where attrition can be expected to be high. She also says that bottlenecks are a skill issue.

[ ] Waystone: Deploy in Kislev (specify which: Praag Region, Troll Country, Kalti Delta)
[ ] Waystone: Deploy in the Empire (specify which: Sylvania, Stirland, Mordheim)
[ ] Waystone: Deploy in the Karaz Ankor (Black Water)
[ ] Waystone: Other (specify where)
The current Waystone model has specific strengths and weaknesses, but these can be disregarded to start deploying them somewhere less suitable.
 
Slaanesh isn't only connected with Perfection and Extremism, it also holds a connection to Hedonism and generally giving in to your Desires.

My argument is that the connection to hedonism and giving in to your desires comes from the bdsm coding the models got and the Christian tendency to regard the material world as the source or all temptation, rather than the immaterial.

Not from the actual things slaanesh is supposed to represent.

Like if Khorne were associated with chess because it is a war game. It could be asserted, but it's philosophically quite contradictory since there is no blood and it is very intellectual.

So we are getting Christian theology by the backdoor in a setting that flips Christian metaphysics on its head.

As an aside, even if these hedonism cults somehow do not fall into Slaanesh's grasp, they will probably fall into Nurgle's. After all, as you yourself said, there would be a lot of stagnation and wasted potential involved.

There's a heck of a lot more nurgle in being happy with hostility to the body and other self-denial things that are depicted as holy than there is slaanesh in having bad sex too often.
 
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I think Boney recently mentioned that the rivers of the old world are bizarrely stable and put down to old one engineering.
I wonder if you even have to go that far back to explain it. With Rivers having semi-sentient spirits and land slowly becoming more mystically attuned to whatever it's currently doing, I could see those two things working together and making the current path of a river more comfortable for the spirit and better at having a river going through it over time. I would think that would cause rivers past a certain size/age to become fairly stable while younger ones are more like their real world counterparts.

Of course you could take that one step further and say that whole situation is just how the Old Ones made the rivers as stable as they are, and it was their plan all along.
 
Interesting extension of that- when the spiritual (aether) is so easily seen as evil it's very weird that we don't have hedonism cults instead of ascetic ones.

Eating a lot or screwing a lot isn't really slaanesh as pride/perfection/extremism, after all- there's no self-improvement or pinnacle to drive towards, and gluttony/lust is stuff you do when you are wasting your potential rather than obsessed with being the most.
Slaanesh is a lord of Excess in all things. Excess of pride, excess of perfection, excess of food and excess of sex or of anything really. Mathilde may or may not have been courting slaanesh attention if she picked both sword options. While yes, the BDSM coding is cringe, especially so nowadays, that doesn´t change the fact that hedonism is very much headed in the direction of excess.

Thought some that border it may be. This is the path that Vlag dwarfs took, just as a mention.
 
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Not the point. If your paper finds that the effects on the wildlife is negative everyone wonders why you even bothered studying a well known and obvious fact.

If the effects are positive people start to get worried about you.
But if you're doing a long-term study on the effects of ambient dhar slowly diminishing on a mixed population of livestock, wildlife, and monsters that suddenly becomes very useful for any Amber or Jade looking to work in the new and hopefully common biome of "slowly becoming less corrupted and more attractive for settlement" that the waystones open up.

It might also be somewhat useful for military campaigns to keep waystone infrastructure secure to have a record of what points the local gribblies decided to try and break the magic rocks. Sure, weird subnautical monsters from blackwater aren't going to map one to one to goblins or undead or beastmen, but something is better than nothing.
 
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Excess of self-denial is the gap there then.

Possibly conflicts with other gods in the areas of excess of piety, excess of anger, excess of self-pity, excess of determination, excess of cleverness.

Seems pretty hard, actually, to have a god of excess be a Bad Thing in a setting that bends around heroes with unmatched skill and unbending will.
 
As per Mathilde's beliefs, the current waystone we have is ideal for deployment in the Troll Country. Mathilde does not think that the Golden Age storage is enough of a bottleneck to inhibit deployment there. There's a lot of waystones to be deployed there.

Additionally, in what world is the Kalti Delta able to be reasonably defended? That's inhabited by Norscans. The point of putting waystones in the Kalti River Delta is to take a position and then fight over it. Kislevites don't live there. It's entirely new territory. Mathilde described it as a Norscan stronghold! Mordheim is similar.

Mathilde says that a waystone with the golden age storage is ideal to place in areas that are under high risk. That is to say, it is ideal for places where attrition can be expected to be high. She also says that bottlenecks are a skill issue.
What? You just quoted an excerpt describing how it's for establishing beachheads and draining away the real trouble spots, but not that great for filling large areas of land with?

Troll Country is the hundreds of miles of land that's corrupted enough to not be viable to raise cattle on, not anything like the hellholes of Praag and Mordheim.

And why are you talking about the Kalti Delta?
 
A thought just occured to me—I think we've personally met every major Dwarf King and Queen now. It's unclear if we have directly met King Alrik Ranulfsson of Karak Hirn or King Gruflok Wyrzon of Karak Izor, but we visited both holds at the start of the expedition to pass on Belegar's messages, and we're good friends with Alrik's son Ulthar, so we've probably talked to them, but we have a confirmed, on-screen meeting with every other monarch. I think King Barundin of Zhufbar was the last one we needed to meet on screen, although we're friends with several of his family members.

Which is quite impressive, when you consider Mathilde's origins.
 
Climb down from that pole and do something useful, for Sigmar's sake. The physical world isn't evil! We know what it looks like when the physical world is evil, the streets start bleeding and the buildings start eating people! Also while we're on the topic the whole concept of what you're doing here is extremely Nurgle-coded!
I now have a funny picture in my head of a Witch Hunter or a Sigmarite priest standing at the base of the pole and shouting something like this up at the stylite, the stylite shouting something back...and the whole thing devolving into a very Monty Python-esque skit argument.

"Come down from that pole this instant, we need to have words!"
"I can't come down from the pole, that's sinful!"
"Well I'm also a priest of Sigmar, and I say the ground is just fine! Quite nice, even!"
"I suppose the ground is alright for some folk, but it just doesn't work for me. Maybe you can come up here instead?"
"Now look here, there isn't enough room on the pole for two of us, I won't fit!"
"Maybe you should come back with a pole of your own?"
"Oh sure, I'll just pop out to the Drakwald and cut down a 50 foot tree of my own, shall I?"
 
The Dwarves tend to be rather tolerant of a 'grey zone' of human inhabitance on the surface around their settlements, since humans may not always be the best of neighbours but they're a damn sight better than most of the alternatives.

While they may seem unsightly, a thriving Umgi population is actually a good sign that your yard doesn't have a grobi problem. If one year the population suddenly crashes or disappears entirely this is a sign of an upcoming siege that the canny gardener will know to pay attention to.
 
What? You just quoted an excerpt describing how it's for establishing beachheads and draining away the real trouble spots, but not that great for filling large areas of land with?

Troll Country is the hundreds of miles of land that's corrupted enough to not be viable to raise cattle on, not anything like the hellholes of Praag and Mordheim.

And why are you talking about the Kalti Delta?
I was quoting the options that the turn post gave to deploy the waystone to: Praag Region, Troll Country, Kalti Delta, Sylvania, Stirland, Mordheim, and Black Water. We could have deployed it elsewhere, but according to the design of the waystones, those were the best places it could be deployed. I brought up the Kalti Delta because it is a Norscan stronghold that the waystone design we made is ideal to be deployed to. Obviously waystones deployed there will be under a severe threat of destruction. No general thinks that infrastructure deployed in a beachhead can't be lost. That would be immensely ignorant.
 
It would seem to me that for going into Troll Country specifically, you want to start with the parts you can turn into grazeland, ideally bordering existing grazeland, so that you can move in Ungols to defend them.
 
I was quoting the options that the turn post gave to deploy the waystone to: Praag Region, Troll Country, Kalti Delta, Sylvania, Stirland, Mordheim, and Black Water. We could have deployed it elsewhere, but according to the design of the waystones, those were the best places it could be deployed. I brought up the Kalti Delta because it is a Norscan stronghold that the waystone design we made is ideal to be deployed to. Obviously waystones deployed there will be under a severe threat of destruction. No general thinks that infrastructure deployed in a beachhead can't be lost. That would be immensely ignorant.
I don't know why you're talking about the strengths of the expensive Waystone when you asked me to justify making a cheap one, but I think I'll let this extremely confused back and forth end here, as the rest of the thread has moved on.
 
I don't know why you're talking about the strengths of the expensive Waystone when you asked me to justify making a cheap one, but I think I'll let this extremely confused back and forth end here, as the rest of the thread has moved on.
I brought up Troll Country because you said it was a good place to use a simplified waystone. That the golden age storage is too currently complex to deploy to Troll Country because of the difficulty bottleneck. I brought up that Mathilde thought that Troll Country was a great place to deploy a waystone that used the golden age storage. You brought up that a waystone with a golden age storage is too difficult to make to place it in areas that you can expect waystones to be destroyed as an argument to make a waystone without it. I brought up that Mathilde thought that the optimal place for our waystone was in places where losses would be expected. That's why I focused on the Kalti Delta. It is firmly controlled by Norscans. If we had taken that option, then the first waystone would be placed into an active warzone. It would have been extremely unreasonable to not expect the destruction waystones deployed there. Mathilde still thought it was one of the seven optimal places on the continent to place the waystone.

Is there anything I missed explaining?
 
At this point, it's moot? We aren't deciding where to set up waystones in Kislev, Boris is doing that and he has his own priorities. And budget. All three powers we deployed to do.

So my plan is to hold off on future designs until someone asks for something bespoke for the need they have.

Besides, it's not like every other wizard and witch on the project knows less than us, they can and will put together their own versions I bet. Given waystones are expensive, having a sales pitch for *your* waystone could be a lot of money to any given magical group, minus the golds.
 
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