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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Deathbybunnies said:
Given the previous back and forth on this, and the complete lack of anyone in the conversation indicating any level of confusion, I think it'll be fine.

I think that chasing the relatively minor complexity decrease in making the fancy Waystones - that only matters in that it limits the rate at which we can make them - by refusing to make a bargain-bin Waystone that can be more easily deployed in areas that can't be easily defended, thereby massively increasing the number of expensive Waystones we need to make, is absurdly self-defeating.
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I suppose and cheap is one of the storage options. Which storage option do you prefer anyways and what level of investment?

I am skeptical about the argument that it is better to cut out the storage if you are placing waystones in contested areas. Look at Mathilde's description of the waystone we just built. She talks about how a durable waystone is best for that sort of thing. Sure, that's the Dawi mindset leaking through, but the Empire is pretty firmly influenced by the Karaz Ankor. I see no reason to assume that Imperial attitudes are going to be significantly different than Mathilde's. What you suggest will probably be less deployed on the front and more deployed in areas where it isn't under threat. There's only so many Imperial armies anyways.

Or hell, look at how our current waystone is ideal for being placed in the Kalti delta. There's a significant risk of waystones being destroyed there. And the Golden Age storage is still apparently ideal for it. It's also ideal for Mordheim, which also would have a significant risk of losing waystones.

Boney said:
But as the piece of magical architecture it actually is, it is a vanguard, and it is in that where one can find the true statement of intent. If all you wanted was to fill already-secured territory to make it proof against the ravages of Morrsleib and storms of magic, or to gradually chip away at the edges of corrupted areas like Sylvania and the Drakwald, then there were much easier ways to accomplish that. This configuration is built for beachheads, to be erected where it is least welcome and to begin the work of draining away the worst pockets of corruption on the continent. In that purpose it not only matches the Waystones of the Golden Age, but exceeds them.
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chocolote12 said:
. A place within the Empire where Dwarves are building near a waterway is all that they need to hear
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The Black Water isnt in The Empire tho, its in the Karaz Ankor. Tho that does bring up the question if the Dwarves would be fine with allies setting up where they werent going to live anyways.
@Boney How do/would the KA handle friendly humans wanting to permanently live in an area they claim? Is there any already existing examples to go off of besides K8P?
 
BurnNote said:
Well, what is your definition then? Because "phase transition from liquid to gas" is the one I know.
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Well ignition of gunpowder is chemical reaction called combustion. The gas created by burning gunpowder is not gaseous gunpowder but rather different chemicals created by the addition of additional energy to the same collection of atoms.

Mopman43 said:
This is Noctilus, he just didn't become a vampire here.
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That's just what he wants you to think.
 
Boney said:
That's Eltharin for you. Every word has so many meanings that you can't do anything without it seeming to be foreshadowed by destiny.
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I think that Eltharin is simpler than it looks sometimes. 'Chaos' and 'Harmony' uses the same word, but Eltharin is a tonal language, so it could just be the difference of a high pitch to say "high harmony" and low pitch to say "low harmony". Don't need special context. Other times you do definitely need context, but maybe not all the time.
 
Sculpt0r said:
A bit of at-work wiki-walking leads me to ask; do any cultures on Mallus (or in The Empire) have any Anchoritic traditions? Most religions in the setting (understandably) are very action focused, but I could see a Celestial or a Light Wizard doing something like that if they're really craving some focus-time.

I don't think Qrech counts since he's a prisoner...
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The Gods are very clear about there being actual prosocial things you can do that they like; the whole 'physical bad, spiritual good, disregard former in favour of latter' line of thought that leads to anchorites is a product of a specific set of theological ideas that the religions of the setting don't really have. So it's generally considered a form of non-useful extremism to be discouraged rather than something that's catered to, and practitioners of it generally end up in the Border Princes where there's nobody who demonstrably has the favour of their God around to tell them they're doing it wrong.

DragonParadox said:
I'd be willing to throw a social action at him to see if he bites.

@Boney is 'Talk to Lord Seilph about your experience with necromancy and his interest in it' a valid social action? I ask because this is the first hint we got of a Grey Lord wanting something we might be able to provide and they certainly have plenty of things we are interested in.
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I think so. I'll give it some thought for the next social action.

dinomannitro6 said:
The Black Water isnt in The Empire tho, its in the Karaz Ankor. Tho that does bring up the question if the Dwarves would be fine with allies setting up where they werent going to live anyways.
@Boney How do/would the KA handle friendly humans wanting to permanently live in an area they claim? Is there any already existing examples to go off of besides K8P?
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The Dwarves tend to be rather tolerant of a 'grey zone' of human inhabitance on the surface around their settlements, since humans may not always be the best of neighbours but they're a damn sight better than most of the alternatives. Barak Varr has a number of human polities bordering it that theoretically claim the land that the Dwarves exert complete control over, and as long as nobody brings up the contradiction and nobody gets in the way of Dwarven business, then everyone can peacefully coexist. So there probably wouldn't be any problem with little fishing villages popping up on the banks of the Black Water as long as they don't get in the way. There might be problems in a future where the settlements grow large enough to be worth taxing or to clash with each other over resources, but that would be a fair way away.

Andres said:
I think that Eltharin is simpler than it looks sometimes. 'Chaos' and 'Harmony' uses the same word, but Eltharin is a tonal language, so it could just be the difference of a high pitch to say "high harmony" and low pitch to say "low harmony". Don't need special context. Other times you do definitely need context, but maybe not all the time.
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Though the nature of Eltharin is far too established in DL for me to make use of this idea, I do find it intriguing.
 
Boney said:
I think so. I'll give it some thought for the next social action.
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"Now, if you were unaware, Lord Seilph, any discovered study of the Forbidden Lore of Necromancy would be grounds for a wizard of the empire to be declared outlaw, traitor, and heretic, to be put to fire and sword as soon as possible."

"Of course."

"Such study would include, but not be limited to, the perusal and contemplation of the original tome of Imperial necromantic lore, kept in secret guardianship by the descendants of the first imperial necromancer as they attempt to atone for their ancestor's crimes."

"Indeed."

"And, should such a tome be discovered in one's library or otherwise come into their possession, it would be to that individual's benefit to ensure that such a tome would be kept entirely secret."

"Naturally."

"Especially if such an individual were a common correspondent with a Lady Magister of the Grey Order, who's purpose among others is the rooting out and destruction of sources of dark lores that may imperil the empire."

"I understand."

"Ok, its in the back of my library, take Wolf with you."

"YAY!"
 
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DocMatoi said:
"Now, if you were unaware, Lord Seilph, any discovered study of the Forbidden Lore of Necromancy would be grounds for a wizard of the empire to be declared outlaw, traitor, and heretic, to be put to fire and sword as soon as possible."

"Of course."

"Such study would include, but not be limited to, the perusal and contemplation of the original tome of Imperial necromantic lore, kept in secret guardianship by the descendants of the first imperial necromancer as they attempt to atone for their ancestor's crimes."

"Indeed."

"And, should such a tome be discovered in one's library or otherwise come into their possession, it would be to that individual's benefit to ensure that such a tome would be kept entirely secret."

"Naturally."

"Especially if such an individual were a common correspondent with a Lady Magister of the Grey Order, who's purpose among others is the rooting out and destruction of sources of dark lores that may imperil the empire."

"I understand."

"Ok, its in the back of my library, take Wolf with you."
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As funny as this would be (and it would be very funny) for the sake of safety I was thinking that if Lord Seilph was interested in a trade (chickens, eggs etc...) we could write that Dhar Insight paper and then give him a copy of it to read. I do not think the Colleges would object to giving a paper on the theoretical use of Dhar to an elf who can in all likelihood use True Dhar. That way we can make it all above board if anyone should ask (we should not volunteer the information though).
 
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Sculpt0r said:
A bit of at-work wiki-walking leads me to ask; do any cultures on Mallus (or in The Empire) have any Anchoritic traditions? Most religions in the setting (understandably) are very action focused, but I could see a Celestial or a Light Wizard doing something like that if they're really craving some focus-time.

I don't think Qrech counts since he's a prisoner...
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Boney's answered for Divided Loyalties, but they do exist within the Empire in canon. WFRP 4e: Shrines of Sigmar has Mechtilde the Devout, a conwoman who pretends to be a Sigmarite anchorite who lives at the top of a pillar. The Wikipedia page on anchorites says anchoritism is one of the earliest forms of Christian monasticism, and the Cult of Sigmar has monks with monasteries and everything, so I think anchorites got ported over because of that.
 
Hey Boney if the EIC ever expanded into Kislev would we have to talked to them about a policy for not fucking over Kislev or would they be able to connect the dots with Patriot that Kislev's survival is vital for the empire to not be the ones on the doorstep of the chaos wastes?
 
Is our litle project known by the imperial magic coleges ?,i'm pretty curious what they are thinking of us getting actual results so fast (it was fast right ?),it's been so long i don't remember what where their (and other) expectation when we began that project.
 
Carcer said:
Is our litle project known by the imperial magic coleges ?,i'm pretty curious what they are thinking of us getting actual results so fast (it was fast right ?),it's been so long i don't remember what where their (and other) expectation when we began that project.
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Do you mean waystone project? Yes we hashed it out several times, its also how we got Jades and Lights involved and we bragged about it to the Emperor. Consider everyone thoroughly informed.
 
BananaBuddy said:
Hey Boney if the EIC ever expanded into Kislev would we have to talked to them about a policy for not fucking over Kislev or would they be able to connect the dots with Patriot that Kislev's survival is vital for the empire to not be the ones on the doorstep of the chaos wastes?
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The EIC won't go as far for Kislev as they will for the Empire, but Don't Skin The Sheep will prevent them from doing anything egregious.
 
It's hard to have anchorites or flagellants without a concept of heaven though. At least, it's really hard to have them make any sense. The whole point was that the harsher they were to themselves in this life, the better of they'd be in the next. And I don't think a garden of morr plays favorites like that.
 
Glau said:
It's hard to have anchorites or flagellants without a concept of heaven though. At least, it's really hard to have them make any sense. The whole point was that the harsher they were to themselves in this life, the better of they'd be in the next. And I don't think a garden of morr plays favorites like that.
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I do not think all religions in the Old World believe everyone goes to the Garden. At the very least the Sigmarites who think Morr is a kind of Chaos daemon (as are all the other gods) cannot. So those guys could have a heaven that works like that.
 
Glau said:
It's hard to have anchorites or flagellants without a concept of heaven though. At least, it's really hard to have them make any sense. The whole point was that the harsher they were to themselves in this life, the better of they'd be in the next. And I don't think a garden of morr plays favorites like that.
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Flagellants are a rather large thing in Warhammer.

Sigmarite Flagellants are the headliners, but every faith has at least some rough equivalent.

(For example, there's a sect of Shallyans that believe any kind of pleasure is evil as long as suffering exists)
 
Mopman43 said:
Flagellants are a rather large thing in Warhammer.

Sigmarite Flagellants are the headliners, but every faith has at least some rough equivalent.

(For example, there's a sect of Shallyans that believe any kind of pleasure is evil as long as suffering exists)
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And then you also find something roughly analogous to them in Grail Pilgrims for the Lady, though there it's wearing cracked spoons and scraps of mail the Grail Knight tossed as garbage instead of whipping themselves.
 
Boney said:
Though the nature of Eltharin is far too established in DL for me to make use of this idea, I do find it intriguing.
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Parabola said:
Perhaps it's something very young elves do when just learning the language, a habit they grow out of?
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The funniest answer is that the Elves, who are not humans and have big ears, do do this at pitches only they can hear and just never tell any of the other races.

So as Mathilde stumbles through every Eltharin interaction maintaining 5 different possible interpretations of how the conversation has thus far gone, to the Elf she's talking to and any who've been listening it's been entirely clear cut.

You say this breaks down in that they'd have no idea what anyone else speaking Eltharin meant? Hush.
 
MrHobbit said:
I suppose and cheap is one of the storage options. Which storage option do you prefer anyways and what level of investment?

I am skeptical about the argument that it is better to cut out the storage if you are placing waystones in contested areas. Look at Mathilde's description of the waystone we just built. She talks about how a durable waystone is best for that sort of thing. Sure, that's the Dawi mindset leaking through, but the Empire is pretty firmly influenced by the Karaz Ankor. I see no reason to assume that Imperial attitudes are going to be significantly different than Mathilde's. What you suggest will probably be less deployed on the front and more deployed in areas where it isn't under threat. There's only so many Imperial armies anyways.

Or hell, look at how our current waystone is ideal for being placed in the Kalti delta. There's a significant risk of waystones being destroyed there. And the Golden Age storage is still apparently ideal for it. It's also ideal for Mordheim, which also would have a significant risk of losing waystones.
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I'd make the fancy populated-areas leyline-only option a copy of what we've already made, minus the riverine transmission component. The simple option for throwing out across the wilderness of Troll Country etc. would probably take the simplest option possible, and have no storage at all - we don't care if random grassland has a bunch of ambient dhar in a Storm of Magic, we care that over a very long period it's brought down to background levels.

It's not for heavily-contested areas like Praag, it's for areas that can't reasonably be defended at all.

(Whoops, answered this on my phone and just realised I forgot to press send - apologies for the double post.)
 
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Honestly I can just imagine Lord Seilph making it their hobby of basically being a horror movie monster on any remaining necromancers or vampires. Basically using his magical power and skill to track them down, style on their defenses and then take all their forbidden knowledge.

Hell he might capture a vampire and perform a magical vivisection.
 
Glau said:
It's hard to have anchorites or flagellants without a concept of heaven though. At least, it's really hard to have them make any sense. The whole point was that the harsher they were to themselves in this life, the better of they'd be in the next. And I don't think a garden of morr plays favorites like that.
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Flagellants in real world were mostly pure repentance as i understand it.

Flagellants in Warhammer are doom sayers who went insane and go about trying to buy forgiveness of their god by cutting down their enemies. While insane. Don´t ask me why they hurt themselves too, could be for any reason.

S not like you need heaven when you know hell is real and that apparently gods can´t or won´t protect the world from the end.
 
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