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Besides, it's not like every other wizard and witch on the project knows less than us, they can and will put together their own versions I bet. Given waystones are expensive, having a sales pitch for *your* waystone could be a lot of money to any given magical group, minus the golds.
I think that's mainly a factor of if any faction supplied all the components they need to make a Waystone.

Mathilde is probably needed to ensure cooperation between factions where they need to work together to design a new Waystone that incorporates parts from different factions.
 
At this point, it's moot? We aren't deciding where to set up waystones in Kislev, Boris is doing that and he has his own priorities. And budget. All three powers we deployed to do.

So my plan is to hold off on future designs until someone asks for something bespoke for the need they have.

Besides, it's not like every other wizard and witch on the project knows less than us, they can and will put together their own versions I bet. Given waystones are expensive, having a sales pitch for *your* waystone could be a lot of money to any given magical group, minus the golds.
This misses my point. I was not arguing that we should have deployed waystones to Troll Country or the Kalti River Delta. I was pointing to places where our waystone is strong to counter claims about its weakness.

I don't mind not wanting to make another variant, but these arguments are bad. Boney isn't the type of writer to have Project members do things on their own without AP from Mathilde. Boney has mentioned that with success in sight they might talk with each other on their own, but that was a very firm might. Mathilde has kept herself in the center of the waystone project. She's the only one who is there for everything. And as Mopman noted, you aren't guaranteed to be able to make a waystone from these components without people from the tradition present. And once the Project is Over, you're going to have trouble getting it started so soon. It'll definitely be easier to collaborate with waystones as a result of cooperation, but there's only so far that will go. Especially because from the meta perspective, AP spent dictates what will be written.

This just does not address the reasons why someone would want to make another waystone.

I think that's mainly a factor of if any faction supplied all the components they need to make a Waystone.

Mathilde is probably needed to ensure cooperation between factions where they need to work together to design a new Waystone that incorporates parts from different factions.
To be fair, Laurelorn has all the components. Though Laurelorn shouldn't feel so abandoned by the Project that they're hosting that they make their own variant. Ulthuan is also pretty used to incorporating knowledge from foreign cultures and Laurelorn isn't that far distant from them. It's just that we wouldn't be able to leverage that into good will in the Court of the Phoenix King.
 
Scourges of The Gods, super-Flagellents, can flagellate so hard that they become flatly immune to chaos mutation, which is an extraordinarily useful trait when delving into awful holes in the ground full of Dhar.

You could easily draw a line between this phenomenon and people thinking that there might be something spiritual in the practice of self denial.
 
And though no sense you can identify can spot anything further happening - including several senses most humans lack - you know for a fact that somewhere in the world, something immensely powerful just started moving.
Mazdamundi: "I swear to the Old Ones what are those stupid warmbloods up to now?"
*prepares a giant telekinetic broomstick to poke at all the noisemakers*
 
This misses my point. I was not arguing that we should have deployed waystones to Troll Country or the Kalti River Delta. I was pointing to places where our waystone is strong to counter claims about its weakness.

I think what you are missing is Mathilde is the expert. If say Troll Country is a bad idea for the present design of Waystone it is our job to window it out. Yes it's not literally the worst place we could place them, those get windowed out by the common sense filter in the background, but using bespoke better than Golden Age Waystones to make barely productive grazing land is not the best use of them even though Boris would pay for them.

Excess of self-denial is the gap there then.

Possibly conflicts with other gods in the areas of excess of piety, excess of anger, excess of self-pity, excess of determination, excess of cleverness.

Seems pretty hard, actually, to have a god of excess be a Bad Thing in a setting that bends around heroes with unmatched skill and unbending will.

Excess being bad is fundamental to all the Gods of Chaos, they are the extreme version of all the others. Khorne is more of a war god than Sigmar or Ulric because he is War unchained by all that is not War, Tzeench is magic unchained of all standards and morality etc... Warhammer has an Aristotelian morality which is to say good can be found in moderation. From that perspective the strangeness is why Slaanesh has not won the Great Game already. There are some parts in 40K that hint that he might be on the way, but this is Fantasy so not really relevant just thought it was neat.
 
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Then there's a specific subset of this dualism where one puts the entirety of the physical world on the Bad side of the chart. The human body is part of the physical world and so is Evil, therefore the things it wants must also be Evil, and the things it doesn't want must actually be Good.
Tome of Salvation mentions a heretical sect of Sigmar that believe that the physical world is a prison for souls created by an evil diety: they're called Wolfenburgians, and they're basically gnostics (why are warhammer gnostics named after the capitcal of Ostland?). But this can't really explain Sigmarite stylites because Wolfenburgians are heretics.
 
Tome of Salvation mentions a heretical sect of Sigmar that believe that the physical world is a prison for souls created by an evil diety: they're called Wolfenburgians, and they're basically gnostics (why are warhammer gnostics named after the capitcal of Ostland?). But this can't really explain Sigmarite stylites because Wolfenburgians are heretics.

It might just be that their founder was from there, call him Hans of Wolfenburg, religious sects often take the name of their founder or have it imposed upon them by their rivals in hindsight.
 
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Like if Khorne were associated with chess because it is a war game. It could be asserted, but it's philosophically quite contradictory since there is no blood and it is very intellectual.
There's precedent for this. In Rogue Trader (1st edition 40k, not the TTRPG), Stormboyz who fell too deep into their yooful rebellion of being obsessed with strategy and military discipline would fall to Khorne, because Khorne embodies all war, not just the cunning brutality of the ork gods. They'd become exiles from ork society, only able to join a Waaagh as temporary mercenaries.

In Warhammer Fantasy, that wouldn't happen even if an analogous cult developed because there's other war gods that embody those traits, most notably Myrmiddia. Arguably, the issue here is that there is no major hedonistic human god, and there's not really space for one to develop in Slaanesh's shadow.
 
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There's precedent for this. In Rogue Trader (1st edition 40k, not the TTRPG), Stormboyz who fell too deep into their yooful rebellion of being obsessed with strategy and military discipline would fall to Khorne, because Khorne embodies all war, not just the cunning brutality of the ork gods. They'd become exiles from ork society, only able to join a Waaagh as temporary mercenaries.

In Warhammer Fantasy, that wouldn't happen even if an analogous cult developed because there's other war gods that embody those traits, most notably Myrmiddia. Arguably, the issue here is that there is no major hedonistic human god, and there's not really space for one to develop in Slaanesh's shadow.
Ngl, myrmidian orcs sound pretty cool.
 
Arguably, the issue here is that there is no major hedonistic human god, and there's not really space for one to develop in Slaanesh's shadow.
There was Vylmar, but He got banned for being too similar to and maybe being a guise of Slaanesh (or maybe the Cult of Sigmar were just overly prudish). It's even been brought up in this quest by Eonir commenting this might not be a good idea, since it cedes conceptual territory to Chaos rather than contesting it with other gods.
 
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So getting the waystones rolling was most of our actions this turn and we did that. What do you think that we are going to do next? Writing papers? Finding the Blackfire pass Nexus? Making the Auditory Seviroscope? Mist bridge? Book exchange with Vlag?
 
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So getting the waystones rolling was most of our actions this turn and we did that. What do you think that we are going to do next? Writing papers? Finding the Blackfire pass Nexus? Making the Auditory Seviroscope? Mist bridge? Book exchange with Vlag?

We still have tributaries to place and those are conceptually a continuation of Waystones after that maybe the Fog bridge to stay around. Alternatively do the Blackfire Pass adventure so Mathy can do something more active and risky. Really it depends on Boney's inspiration.
 
In Warhammer Fantasy, that wouldn't happen even if an analogous cult developed because there's other war gods that embody those traits, most notably Myrmiddia. Arguably, the issue here is that there is no major hedonistic human god, and there's not really space for one to develop in Slaanesh's shadow.
There's admittedly Atharti, but she's an elvish goddess of the Cytharai. The only known example of a Cytharai god being worshipped by humans is Khaine tho, and it always turns bad for everyone involved.
 
There's precedent for this. In Rogue Trader (1st edition 40k, not the TTRPG), Stormboyz who fell too deep into their yooful rebellion of being obsessed with strategy and military discipline would fall to Khorne, because Khorne embodies all war, not just the cunning brutality of the ork gods. They'd become exiles from ork society, only able to join a Waaagh as temporary mercenaries.

In Warhammer Fantasy, that wouldn't happen even if an analogous cult developed because there's other war gods that embody those traits, most notably Myrmiddia. Arguably, the issue here is that there is no major hedonistic human god, and there's not really space for one to develop in Slaanesh's shadow.
Myrmiddian orks would be cool, and that sounds like a fun quest idea, but three niche of disciplined orks is already filled. That's the black orks.
 
I feel like the problem with Vylmar was that there's no secondary pro-social aspect (that we know of) to bolster any arguments against proscribing.

Compare Ranald, where whatever else you feel about him, NOBODY wants to go without luck. Yes there's also a realpolitik-esque argument of "better that he's on the inside pissing out." If someone doesn't care about the "there are worse things to have in the criminal underworld than ranald" you've got the "do YOU want to be unlucky?" argument and if someone doesn't care about luck you've got the "There are worse things to have in the criminal underworld so we can just persecute his followers for their actual crimes without actually banning him", and a small enough people are unconvinced by both that Ranald gets to be a Fully Legitimate God despite being 75% Problems(tm).

Honestly I'd guess probably a significant fraction of the Vylmarites switched to running their hedonism orgies on Rhyan themes.
 
There's admittedly Atharti, but she's an elvish goddess of the Cytharai. The only known example of a Cytharai god being worshipped by humans is Khaine tho, and it always turns bad for everyone involved.
any elven god worshipped by humans that hasn't been altered to fit a group of humans first tends to cause problems.

because elven gods arn't designed to be worshipped mostly alone, as is the way of humans and their gods.

a worshipper of sigmar is primarily a worshipper of sigmar. other gods are present and given their due, but most of their devotion is set for the one god they have chosen as theirs.

elves don't do that, and their gods are not designed with doing that in mind. in fact, pick any one elven god and just make it (to exagerrate for the point of emphasis) the only god and you get weird horror shit.


Human gods are, more or less, complete entities. they have a theme, but if you asked ulric what his opinion on something completely outside his domain he'd probably have an answer a person would say.

ask khaine that? or manann?
 
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any elven god worshipped by humans that hasn't been altered to fit a group of humans first tends to cause problems.

because elven gods arn't designed to be worshipped mostly alone, as is the way of humans and their gods.

a worshipper of sigmar is primarily a worshipper of sigmar. other gods are present and given their due, but most of their devotion is set for the one god they have chosen as theirs.

elves don't do that, and their gods are not designed with doing that in mind. in fact, pick any one elven god and just make it (to exagerrate for the point of emphasis) the only god and you get weird horror shit.

This all presupposes that some human gods are not just elven gods in a mustache which would mean for instance that a safe-for-humans worship Hoeth is called Verena.

There is some evidence of that both in an out of quest.
 
This all presupposes that some human gods are not just elven gods in a mustache which would mean for instance that a safe-for-humans worship Hoeth is called Verena.

There is some evidence of that both in an out of quest.
any elven god worshipped by humans that hasn't been altered to fit a group of humans first tends to cause problems.

the nature of warp entities is that your worship and idea of them actually changes who they are. it might take time before an elven god is sufficiently, warped, by human minds to be safe for general consumption. but it will still eventually happen if left to its own devices.

it's just that for cytharai that, left to its own devices, stage is usually anti-social in the extreme. and expensive.
 
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Ngl, myrmidian orcs sound pretty cool.
You have caused Rodrigo entirely new kinds of psychological damage

Re: Anchorite Sigmarites (and to a lesser extent others), beyond "People are bad at their religions (hello American Evangelicals, how're you?)", it's been a noted thread that the laymen believe the gods lie Elsewhere, so developing a tradition contemplating that Elsewhere doesn't exactly strike me as out of the question.
 
the nature of warp entities is that your worship and idea of them actually changes who they are. it might take time before an elven god is sufficiently, warped, by human minds to be safe for general consumption. but it will still eventually happen if left to its own devices.

While this could be the case to a very high degree in canon it is not in this quest, we have seen Ranald and he acts like a sapient being with his own independent goals and motivations, not like a hollow echo chamber for his worshipers. Gods may still be influenced somewhat by their worshipers in an echo of mortals getting a divine mark say, but they retain their fundamental existence which means that if Verena is Hoeth or Ranald is Loec than what's changing is how the humans worship them, not the god themselves.
 
That's a very interesting explanation for how fasting came to be. Every time I've heard about it, fasting seemed to be another way of showing your devotion to god, and while that probably is a big reason for it, the material world being theologically inferior in some way probably plays a part.
I think I can provide a perspective on fasting, being that I'm a Muslim (at least nominally). The reason Ramadan is a month of fasting is multi-fold. Obviously there is the spiritual aspect of ascetism to heighten your religous spirit, which is the standard reason fasting is done in many situations, but it is also purported and taught to children (like I was) that it is a way to understand what it feels like to the less fortunate. To be more empathetic and understanding of individuals who are less likely to be able to eat as frequently, which would lead one to commit to charity (Zakat, one of the pillars of Islam) more readily.

Of course, fasting is not a perfect tradition for such a thing. Iftar (breaking the fast at sunset) typically consists of plentiful amounts and portions of food and Suhur (eating right before fasting is to be begun at sunrise) is done to lessen the burden of fasting through the day, but that is the idea at least.
 
I brought up Troll Country because you said it was a good place to use a simplified waystone. That the golden age storage is too currently complex to deploy to Troll Country because of the difficulty bottleneck. I brought up that Mathilde thought that Troll Country was a great place to deploy a waystone that used the golden age storage. You brought up that a waystone with a golden age storage is too difficult to make to place it in areas that you can expect waystones to be destroyed as an argument to make a waystone without it. I brought up that Mathilde thought that the optimal place for our waystone was in places where losses would be expected. That's why I focused on the Kalti Delta. It is firmly controlled by Norscans. If we had taken that option, then the first waystone would be placed into an active warzone. It would have been extremely unreasonable to not expect the destruction waystones deployed there. Mathilde still thought it was one of the seven optimal places on the continent to place the waystone.

Is there anything I missed explaining?
Okay, I can see where the misunderstanding has come from.

The complex Waystones can move more magic, and can protect an area in Storms of Magic. The tradeoff is that they are correspondingly difficult to make, and are this very rate-limited in their deployment. They are suited to areas where they can have a large impact, which is civilised areas where losses are not expected, and hotspots where their ability to move large amounts of magic is more valuable. Despite these being contested areas, we should not be planning for these to be destroyed very often - if the Waystone is lost, it's because the small army guarding it is dead.

A hypothetical simpler Waystone would move magic slowly, and would not do anything to protect an area against Storms of Magic, but would nevertheless over time reduce the amount of magic over an area. They are suited to being out in the wilderness, where any given acre of land is not all that valuable, but that we want cleared out over time anyway. They are not expected to be the focus of fighting, but being undefended out in the wilderness will inevitably take a few losses here and there to random gribblies uncontested - but can just as easily be replaced.

I think when I said "hard to defend" you thought I meant "under heavy assault" rather than "stretched out across the wilderness where we can't station troops, or even meaningfully patrol." I hope this clears that up!

Whilst I'm sure there exist individual pockets in Troll Country that could use a stronger Waystone - if you think the Kati Delta is one I'll just take your word for it - I do not think it is well suited for mass-deploying across low-value land that cannot be consistently defended.

I can't see where Mathilde indicates she thinks this Waystone specifically is a good match for Troll Country, over other hypothetical models, beyond her considering it as an option at all? I don't think that's an argument for using this model over other models there, though.

We don't want to stop deploying the current model, we want to be producing both, and putting them where their strengths lie.
 
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