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This was before the War of Vengeance and the colonies were abandoned.

Tor Lithenor was partially founded by the Grey Lords, who are all exiled magical researchers for one reason or another.
That's what I'm wondering. Were there other colonies which exiled mages would end up at, or is there a reason all the mad scientists ended up in this specific place? Did the Grey Lords form the club or did someone have an idea? That and the joke.
 
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Oh, please. You are the lead of the Vortex Project, you got an entire coven of unpaid interns lesser archmages to do that for you.
You'd think so. You'd fucking think so. But it's vital infrastructure, which is why the government will immediately start cutting the funding and manpower. And then some new project manager wants to change everything to show how in charge he is and mucks things up until he gets fired, and then he gets his momma and they come back to demand the position back. And by the end, nobody cares about the thing keeping everyone alive, because it's been working just fine so far. And the only one who actually understands and maintains the system is you. If you think not being able to leaving is going to make the boss more likely to hire support for you, then you live in a better world.
 
That's what I'm wondering. Were there other colonies which exiled mages would end up at, or is there a reason all the mad scientists ended up in this specific place? Did the Grey Lords form the club or did someone else have an idea?
There was a research colony being founded in laurelorn, by queen marrisiths mom(?) Who was related to the everqueen. The grey lords came because it was a place you could send guys to tell them to fuck off without sending them to naggaroth. Presumably there were similar postings for military types and Nobodies, but the mages and researchers went to laurelorn
 
The limiting factor for how fast we can cover the world in Waystones is how fast we can build them. Building versions without the extra unused functionality will result in more being built in the same period of time. The riverine component is nothing but added time and cost when placed in areas that don't have rivers, and the leyline component is the same in riverbeds not intersecting a leyline. It's only useful to have both where the two networks meet.

We also don't want a version that Ulthuan can build alone? No one polity being able to break away and go alone is a benefit, here.
And I repeat myself, you said cheap, not complicated to make. And using the storage more makes it easier to make along the line. Every place should have leylines, if not today then tomorrow. That is the whole point. Additionally, leyline waystones can be connected through dual transmission waystones even if there isn't a direct leyline connection. So as it stands, I don't see the point. It makes expanding leyline waystones to beyond rivers easier. I don't see why we should be placing riverine waystones in areas that aren't problems; I think it is better to just wait a bit to connect them with leyline waystones.

Yes we do. Ulthuan has reverse-engineered runes to an extent, see the Talisman of Vengeance and the Cloak of Beards. They don't seem to be capable of making them (or they don't want to, either that or it is just not shown), but they definitely know how they work. I am extremely skeptical that Runesmiths will sell them runes.

For example, Black Water. Are there any lines of Waystones in the area they can be plugged into?
Not currently, but the moment you put down the first one in the water, then there's a Waystone that others can be plugged into.
You're not making an isolated Waystone, the energies aren't going out into the ocean to never ever bother anybody ever again, even though that is a perfect solution with no possible future problems. They're going into the greater Waystone Network somewhere downstream.

Now, exactly how that will work with the different branches of the network, and with different spirits serving as middlebeings in the whole process is all extremely up in the air, but that's even more reason that now is not the time to be planning the theoretically maximally efficient Waystone.
 
I'm interested in developing a second waystone design, but probably only after or concurrently with another round of deployment—there's still Troll Country and the Kalti Delta in Kislev, and Mordheim and Stirland in the Empire as default options, and it doesn't seem like we've hit anything near a bottleneck in terms of deployment ability.
 
And I repeat myself, you said cheap, not complicated to make. And using the storage more makes it easier to make along the line. Every place should have leylines, if not today then tomorrow. That is the whole point. Additionally, leyline waystones can be connected through dual transmission waystones even if there isn't a direct leyline connection. So as it stands, I don't see the point. It makes expanding leyline waystones to beyond rivers easier. I don't see why we should be placing riverine waystones in areas that aren't problems; I think it is better to just wait a bit to connect them with leyline waystones.

Yes we do. Ulthuan has reverse-engineered runes to an extent, see the Talisman of Vengeance and the Cloak of Beards. They don't seem to be capable of making them (or they don't want to, either that or it is just not shown), but they definitely know how they work. I am extremely skeptical that Runesmiths will sell them runes.
Cheap in terms of time spent, I didn't think to specify.

Nowhere did I say we shouldn't use the same storage mechanism for the "expensive" Waystone variants.

Not everywhere should have leylines? There are going to be long stretches of river without them. If everywhere had convenient leylines, or we could create leylines trivially, there'd be no point in the riverine component at all?

Ulthuan not being able to take our Waystone designs and checking out of the Project removes most of our influence to get Nexus secrets etc. out of them down the line.

I'm pretty sure if Ulthuan was reverse-engineering runes in a meaningful sense the Karaz Ankor would declare war on them, so that seems unlikely.
 
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Yes we do. Ulthuan has reverse-engineered runes to an extent, see the Talisman of Vengeance and the Cloak of Beards. They don't seem to be capable of making them (or they don't want to, either that or it is just not shown), but they definitely know how they work. I am extremely skeptical that Runesmiths will sell them runes.

I think that 'somehow' is pretty easy to guess actually: the Empire does not use Tale of Metal on rune stuff because they are concerned about pissing off the dwarfs. But what reason would the Asur have to not use it once the War of the Beard started? If a wizard can make runes than the High Mages of the Asur can, they just, you know keep it on the down low so as not to restart the war.
 
...Do the existing Sylvanian waystones connect to the Moot's nexus, or are some of the new waystones going to have to be the points of 'rerouting' the existing ones down the rivers all the way to the Jade College?

The existing ones connect to the Moot, but some of the new additions are likely to be using the rivers.

How does it work for an exiled High Elf to end up in Laurelorn? Was it just one of several places they would wash up, or is there a reason this colony in specific was chosen? They don't seem to share specialty or even much in common beyond their relationship to Ulthuan. Do they just invite any archmage with a rebellious enough attitude.

"Okay Ornthalas, we get it. You're a magical visionary, you have a bad relationship with Saphery, whatever. But to join our cool club you still have to dye your hair and get your older brother to lend us his ID."

It was a magical research colony that wasn't getting weird about it and was off the main trade routes. It was a natural place for exiled Mages to end up before the War of the Ancients, and it was the only place that an exiled Elf in the Old World without a boat could go once the order came to abandon the continent.

@Boney how many waystones need to be made for Sylvania and praag

More than ten, less than a thousand. The exact number is for the QMs of the Elf Archmage Quests to figure out.

and are both of those expected to also finish in 96?

They don't have estimated completion dates because at this stage it's not known when they'll be completed.
 
I'm interested in developing a second waystone design, but probably only after or concurrently with another round of deployment—there's still Troll Country and the Kalti Delta in Kislev, and Mordheim and Stirland in the Empire as default options, and it doesn't seem like we've hit anything near a bottleneck in terms of deployment ability.
I don't see the point in deploying the dual-transmission waystone again. We've already put it in places where people will see it. The likes of Boris, the Elector Counts, ect will handle deploying it further on their own. But it's very inefficient to place it everywhere. The vast majority of places where it will be deployed won't need the riverine transmission component.

Cheap in terms of time spent, I didn't think to specify.

Nowhere did I say we shouldn't use the same storage mechanism for the "expensive" Waystone variants.

Not everywhere should have leylines? There are going to be long stretches of river without them. If everywhere had convenient leylines, or we could create leylines trivially, there'd be no point in the riverine component at all?

Ulthuan not being able to take our Waystone designs and checking out of the Project removes most of our influence to get Nexus secrets etc. out of them down the line.

I'm pretty sure if Ulthuan was reverse-engineering runes in a meanhgul sense the Karaz Ankor would declare war on them, so that seems unlikely.
Expensive is not typically used to refer to time, but I figured that is what you were talking about. The reason I brought up the storage is that it's pretty much the only thing you can cut out of our current waystone to get an easier leyline waystone. The other changes that don't involve the actual waystone itself are pretty much negligible. And as I said, it is boring to make non golden age storage waystones.

No there are not. Because as I have pointed out multiple times before, civilization is at its strongest near the rivers. Rivers are some of the least likely places to need waystones. And in those places that need waystones, redundancy is always better. Because waystones only have a range of ten or so kilometers with tributaries. You are inevitably going to have overlap if want to cleanse tainted land beyond rivers. And as I said, dual transmission waystones makes it a lot easier to spread purely land-based around in trouble areas. Rather than needing to link up other waystones to get to that area. You can just connect them in from the dual transmission waystone.

You should note that Mathilde only went for the riverine transmission method once it had been determined that they needed to negotiate with either Ulthuan and Naggaroth to use it. And neither options were seen as particularly likely to succeed. That's why we researched the riverine option. It was seen as much more likely to succeed than asking Ulthuan or Naggaroth.

Ulthuan can already build waystones on its own. Eltharion also negotiated for access to the designs of the products of the Projects. They certainly know how to build a reverse-engineered storage. They know how to make the Stone Flower. because Barak Varr is getting their Stone Flowers and storages from Ulthuan. They can make a waystone all on their own. They certainly know how to make magic runes. This would be leveraging us doing work for them to get Finubar's court to see Mathilde more positively.

The Karaz Ankor did. You might have heard of the conflict, it's called the War of Vengeance. Also Ulthuan rules the waves lmfao. What is the Karaz Ankor going to do? Sack Marienburg? Also note @DragonParadox's statement about Tale of Metal. Archmages also worked with Dwarves to make runic projects. Ulthuan had no incentive to not study runes after Caradryel the Peacemaker abandoned the Old World. And they had one during the War of the Beard. As you can see they studied runes and produced the Pendant of Vengeance (which destroys Anvils of Vengeance) and the Cloak of Beards (which deactivates runes) with that knowledge.
 
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My guess for why there's a research colony in Laurelorn is the portal in the Tarn of Tears.

But what reason would the Asur have to not use it once the War of the Beard started?
DRM (Dwarven Rites Management)

More seriously it is a spell that risks the sanity of the caster, and theres a lot of room between knowing how to destroy/deactivate runes and knowing how to make them, especially if your best avenue is systematically casting Tale of Metal on a bunch of runes
 
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The existing ones connect to the Moot, but some of the new additions are likely to be using the rivers.



It was a magical research colony that wasn't getting weird about it and was off the main trade routes. It was a natural place for exiled Mages to end up before the War of the Ancients, and it was the only place that an exiled Elf in the Old World without a boat could go once the order came to abandon the continent.



More than ten, less than a thousand. The exact number is for the QMs of the Elf Archmage Quests to figure out.



They don't have estimated completion dates because at this stage it's not known when they'll be completed.
I honestly mostly just asked to figure out if they had roughly the same throughput of emplacing about 8 waystones a year as the black water team. At that rate we could probably finish the entire Passover in about hundred years. If three teams/operations run concurrently for that duration. Sounds like decent pace.
 
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Markgraf beelines straight towards an audience with the Grey Lords instead. You don't know what conversation went on in the Wishing Woods, but when he emerges it is with the promised aid of two Grey Lords, Seilph and Sarumar

Hot damn this dude doesn't mess around. Straight to the top here, though I'm guessing Mathilde was needed to make the introductions as it were.

But man actually do wanna see what diety Tindomiel thinks is totally Hekarti in a human friendly hat.

I'm actually kind of surprised that Eltharion - or some representative of his - didn't show up to watch the first Waystones going up. I would have thought he would've wanted to see The New Waystones in action.

Well that would be time not spent repairing Yvresse you see. I imahine Eltharion has beelined back home fast enough to leave dust trails as he yoinks everyone with spirit wrangling to spam Liminal Generation as fast as possible.

Some thoughts on the cleaning of the Black Water :
  • Manning an extra 40 fortifications is something the Dawi are good at doing, but presumably it's a manpower constraint.
  • Barak Varr is involved, and they're the trade hold. I expect that they will try to make this generate some income, enough to defray costs if not enough to actually be profitable. Perhaps the western part of the Black Water could see more overland patrols based in the new fortifications, securing better overland trade towards Sylvania or Stirland & the Moot ? .
  • This kind of patrolling sounds like something they could theoretically hire human mercenaries for... Not sure if they'd consider doing it without our involvement, but we could give it a try !
Re manning the forts, Barrak Varr is already the most "cosmopolitan"/least "closed off/rely on proper Dwarfpower" holds as a major international trade post. See Boney mentioning them specifically collaborating with Asur mages not being that eyebrow raising. Also them under the table sponsoring Gretel.

I imagine theyd prefer having dwarfs protecting these specifically, but at the same time I imagine if the dwarf numbers aren't there, they're looking over at the Udumgi while stroking their beards contemplative.


As a final note, I imagine moving from "nerds staring at rocks and making maps" to "actually making something physical" would increase the chances of cultists or other factors trying to infiltrate and mess with stuff. So here's hoping
 
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I don't see the point in deploying the dual-transmission waystone again. We've already put it in places where people will see it. The likes of Boris, the Elector Counts, ect will handle deploying it further on their own. But it's very inefficient to place it everywhere. The vast majority of places where it will be deployed won't need the riverine transmission component.
The places I mentioned are all where the dual transmission mechanism could come into play, otherwise they wouldn't be default options for the one model that we have available.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that further deployment will happen on its own; we've had tributaries for a while, but I don't think any place has started rolling them out besides the ones we did on screen, and I see no reason why waystones would differ in that regard. Or at least, if it does happen, it'll be very very slowly.
 
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They don't have estimated completion dates because at this stage it's not known when they'll be completed.
That completion is expected is pretty wild if you consider that 20 years ago Sylvania was that horrible cess pool of undead, and the worry was that they'd come and try to colonise us, again. And ten years ago, it would've been considered technically possible, but a good way to really economically ruin yourself without actually changing anything.
 
DRM (Dwarven Rites Management)

More seriously it is a spell that risks the sanity of the caster, and theres a lot of room between knowing how to destroy/deactivate runes and knowing how to make them, especially if your best avenue is systematically casting Tale of Metal on a bunch of runes

I mean yeah, if you use it on things like the Waystone Network. It would I think be rather arrogant from a dwarf PoV to assume that a random ass runeaxe made with say the Rune of Fire is just as well protected as that especially since there is precedent for runes being jail-broken. Specifically I mean by the Dawi Zhar, they were jail-broken so well that Kragg, one of the most skilled runesmiths of the age, cannot tell if the runes on the axe come from the East or the North.
 
I'm interested in developing a second waystone design, but probably only after or concurrently with another round of deployment—there's still Troll Country and the Kalti Delta in Kislev, and Mordheim and Stirland in the Empire as default options, and it doesn't seem like we've hit anything near a bottleneck in terms of deployment ability.
I'm gonna second MrHobbit on this - Boney was very clear on how our job is only to get the ball rolling. Other people, once they realize the full benefits, will handle the logistics and future deployments and contacting relevant expertise entirely on their own. It seems quite likely that Kislev will spread the current model of waystones up and down their own rivers once Praag is mostly okay.

However, the riverine component of the hybrid waystones gets wasted if it's not put in a river, obviously, and it is explicitly noted to be "Very difficult, moderate cost" compared to Caledor leylines' "Trivial, simple cost". It's way more cost-effective to have a leyline-only waystone model for places that need waystones but don't have much in the way of rivers - Laurelorn, the Drakwald, the Forest of Shadows, Athel Loren, etc. You wouldn't need to specifically tap into the Jade College for these.

(We've also discussed the many pros and cons of an elf-only waystone before, but that's besides the point. The important part is, leyline-only is ideal for many many places, and can connect to the hybrid waystones that we'd first put up.)

I think that 'somehow' is pretty easy to guess actually: the Empire does not use Tale of Metal on rune stuff because they are concerned about pissing off the dwarfs. But what reason would the Asur have to not use it once the War of the Beard started? If a wizard can make runes than the High Mages of the Asur can, they just, you know keep it on the down low so as not to restart the war.
This is assuming that Tale of Metal is not a human-original spell for purposes of the quest. I don't think an elf wizard, as depicted in-quest, would make a spell that risks getting their mind irreparably harmed in the way we know can happen to Gold Wizards.

I'm specifically reminded of how Boney confirmed that the Elves made Gehenna's Golden Hounds by only binding them to objects. Binding them to someone's soul is very clearly a human development upon that, because humans are way more likely to be reckless in that way.
 
This is assuming that Tale of Metal is not a human-original spell for purposes of the quest. I don't think an elf wizard, as depicted in-quest, would make a spell that risks getting their mind irreparably harmed in the way we know can happen to Gold Wizards.

Elf wizards as depicted in quest invented the Lore of Dark Magic, all of it, and this had to have been pre-Sundering because the proto-Druchi deployed it on mass during the Sundering. Compared to that 'may drive you insane if you are unlucky' is peanuts.

Also I had forgotten about this but... er here's canonical information of it happening:

An outcast high priest of Vaul, Hotek was the jealous disciple of Caledor Dragontamer,[2a][2b] and secretly forged weapons for the legions of Nagarythe during the Elven Civil War, using the magical Hammer of Vaul, which Caledor had used to make weapons for Aenarion. Morathi had offered him knowledge of the Rune Magic of the dwarfs in order to win him over. Seeking to combine runes with the secrets of Dark Magic, Hotek hoped to surpass even Caledor himself
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Source

So yeah at the very least Druchi know how to make runes to some extent and probably the Asur too they just keep it secret.
 
or for that matter a Karaz Ankor
Caledor met Grimnir and an army of Dwarfs once, when the fleet he was in got blown off course and ended up in the Old World, so he probably does know what the KA is.

Sarumar is the tip of a very large iceberg of shamelessly looted Quenya. I promise there's no secret truths to be found.
That's interesting, because Saruman isn't Quenya.

Huh, yeah. He's the Great-Grandson of Caledor Dragontamer, and the Grandson of Caledor the Conqueror (which is who I mixed the Dragontamer up with).
Great-grandson of Dragontamer, son of the Conquerer. We don't, AFAIK, know the name of the one between Dragontamer and Conquerer (but good odds that it had 'Im' as the first syllable).

It's almost certainly not true, but it would be funny if the Ancient Widow is just Caledor pretending to be some kind of human tribal deity out of sheer boredom. :V
News just in, entire Kislevite pantheon actually just Caledor and his friends' long lasting RP.

There was a research colony being founded in laurelorn, by queen marrisiths mom(?) Who was related to the everqueen. The grey lords came because it was a place you could send guys to tell them to fuck off without sending them to naggaroth. Presumably there were similar postings for military types and Nobodies, but the mages and researchers went to laurelorn
A lot of them (although perhaps not all, we don't have a list) seem to have been banished after the Sundering, so sending them to Naggaroth is just execution with extra steps. One of the extra steps is likely to be horrific torture.
 
The places I mentioned are all where the dual transmission mechanism could come into play, otherwise they wouldn't be default options for the one model that we have available.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that further deployment will happen on its own; we've had tributaries for a while, but I don't think any place has started rolling them out besides the ones we did on screen. Or at least, if it does happen, it'll be very very slowly.
The point of the deployment actions is to build prestige for the waystone project. Mathilde's job is not to arrange for the building of waystones across the entire continent. It is to make the powers that be want waystones. Mathilde does that by doing impressive things with waystones. Boney said that clearly.

Do you recall when Mathilde proposed to Boris that they should make tributaries in Kislev? She mentioned that they were more gutters than aqueducts, and Boris said because of the fact that they wouldn't make obvious improvements that it would be difficult to get Kislev to go along with deploying tributaries. Wasytones produce obvious improvements.

Ideally we should only have one deployment action per waystone variant.

(We've also discussed the many pros and cons of an elf-only waystone before, but that's besides the point. The important part is, leyline-only is ideal for many many places, and can connect to the hybrid waystones that we'd first put up.)

This is assuming that Tale of Metal is not a human-original spell for purposes of the quest. I don't think an elf wizard, as depicted in-quest, would make a spell that risks getting their mind irreparably harmed in the way we know can happen to Gold Wizards.
That's true, but fundamentally it's just speculating how Ulthuan reverse-engineered runes. We know Ulthuan did, and the dwarves certainly know too. It's best to just avoid the landmine entirely by just... not trying to get runesmiths to sell runes to Ulthuan.

Kinda unrelatedly, I just thought of something about the topic of elf-made waystones. Ulthuan has the components to make it. They already had one, and Barak Varr has been buying the components for the Black Water waystones from Ulthuan. Eltharion's adoption of Aethyric Impluvium shows that Ulthuan is willing to repurpose waystone products by themselves. We should do it ourselves. To be clear, I don't think Boney simulates the universe to that degree, but I still want to make sure we get the credit. Not some random archmage a century after the quest concludes.
 
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Elf wizards as depicted in quest invented the Lore of Dark Magic, all of it, and this had to have been pre-Sundering because the proto-Druchi deployed it on mass during the Sundering. Compared to that 'may drive you insane if you are unlucky' is peanuts.

Also I had forgotten about this but... er here's canonical information of it happening:

An outcast high priest of Vaul, Hotek was the jealous disciple of Caledor Dragontamer,[2a][2b] and secretly forged weapons for the legions of Nagarythe during the Elven Civil War, using the magical Hammer of Vaul, which Caledor had used to make weapons for Aenarion. Morathi had offered him knowledge of the Rune Magic of the dwarfs in order to win him over. Seeking to combine runes with the secrets of Dark Magic, Hotek hoped to surpass even Caledor himself
-
Source

So yeah at the very least Druchi know how to make runes to some extent and probably the Asur too they just keep it secret.
You misunderstand what I mean. Tale of Metal can fuck over your head if you cast it correctly and as intended. Dhar is evil and bad and mean and gross and dangerous, but I would assume that the Druchii would make Dhar spells that only fuck over the caster if they have a skill issue while casting, or which offload the downsides to other people, not risk harming themselves from correctly casting them.
 
You misunderstand what I mean. Tale of Metal can fuck over your head if you cast it correctly and as intended. Dhar is evil and bad and mean and gross and dangerous, but I would assume that the Druchii would make Dhar spells that only fuck over the caster if they have a skill issue while casting, or which offload the downsides to other people, not risk harming themselves from correctly casting them.

Tale of Metal can fuck over your head if you cast it on an improper target, the Lore of Dark Magic will fuck with your head if you use it as intended for long enough periods of time. Improper use of Tale of Metal on things that drive the caster mad could also be seen as a lack of skill or alternatively a lack of will to have been driven mad at all.
 
I'm specifically reminded of how Boney confirmed that the Elves made Gehenna's Golden Hounds by only binding them to objects. Binding them to someone's soul is very clearly a human development upon that, because humans are way more likely to be reckless in that way.

It also has fewer downsides for a human, to be totally fair, due to how all known human wizards* do magic. The method we know requires having a specific Wind attached to your soul, and that's going to make for a Bad Time for an elf if they ever want to use Winds other than Chamon. Since humans already have that exact problem, it's a nonissue for them in a way that it's never going to be for a standard elven practitioner.

(Whether this issue applies to Druchii, who already work with significant quantities of Dhar, seems like it might be a somewhat more open question, and one we might get an opportunity to look into on the Elfcation. But given that the one Druchii we met seemed genuinely surprised by our Arcane Marks, I'm going to guess they probably don't do too much soul-modification of that particular sort either.)

*With the exception of the Damsels, who appear to have a divine or pseudodivine figure interceding for them in a fashion similar to a priest. I'm also not including anyone who couldn't use either method due to, for instance, only making use of earthbound magic.
 
Tale of Metal can fuck over your head if you cast it on an improper target, the Lore of Dark Magic will fuck with your head if you use it as intended for long enough periods of time. Improper use of Tale of Metal on things that drive the caster mad could also be seen as a lack of skill or alternatively a lack of will to have been driven mad at all.
I feel like we're splitting hairs regarding this... Well, let's just leave it at that. I don't think we'll be able to convince one another of what we believe in right now.
 
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