Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Feels like there's been an extreme amount of caricaturing of Praag citizens to be honest.

Perhaps, but you should take into account the flat denial that the noted consequences will actually happen, which is somewhat more frequent. See this example:

Only if the Zar is a amazingly incompetent spin doctor.

This seems to be an assertion that the consequences we are warned about in the past don't actually exist and can be ignored.

Therefore peasants liking wizards have no effect on wheter they get burned or not. It is the nobles that determines that.

Disagree. Nobles only know what people tell them. If no one tells them about the wizard, the wizard doesn't get burnt.

They are, in the end, just humans like every other human. The ability to order people to act in your interests is just social convention.
 
Disagree. Nobles only know what people tell them. If no one tells them about the wizard, the wizard doesn't get burnt.

They are, in the end, just humans like every other human. The ability to order people to act in your interests is just social convention.

Why are we still talking about wizard burning in Kislev? They do not do that. They might kill male wizards but that is because of Ice Witch prophecies not magi-phobia.
 
Why are we still talking about wizard burning in Kislev? They do not do that. They might kill male wizards but that is because of Ice Witch prophecies not magi-phobia.

I feel like you make a lot of 100% definitive statements on stuff you have about 60% evidence for.

Its not like the mages in Kislev are *less* likely to explode into demons than the ones in the empire. If magic phobia is driven by that reality and not just religious dogma then there's no reason for it to be lessened in areas of greater risk.
 
I don't follow that logic. How does that follow another...

Nvm, I am pretty sure I am going to disagree no matter what logic you explain because it makes no sense.

But let me observe that until powerful people agreed to stop burning witches peasents could never stop witch hunters even when they liked local druid/hedgewise. And when powerful people said stop, peasants had to stop and could not burn Mathilde.

Therefore peasants liking wizards have no effect on wheter they get burned or not. It is the nobles that determines that.

Did you forget, like, THE MAIN CHARACTER'S BACKSTORY?

No witch hunter wanted her dead. No man in power wanted her dead. Superstitious peasants wanted her dead.

Unlike some people think, "the masses" act on their own and are not fully controlled. And unlike some optimists think, this is not always a good thing, if you teach them to hate, they can hate more than you even expected or wanted, beyond your control.

I do not think they burn Wizards in Kislev actually, well OK, they burn the bodies, but that is because they burn everyone instead of burial. :V

On a more serious note please stop projecting Imperial mores onto these people.

I never projected Empire mores in Kislev. I stated that this will set the mood for the stone deployment in general, thus affecting the peasants of the Empire. Unless we get a vote for every stone deployment we wanted to make, this is THE vote about stone deployment. Thus, it makes sense that following stones will be deployed under the same logic.

And maybe more stones deployed due to the rich liking us is better on the long term the way humans fathom time, but more commonfolk liking wizards is better in the longterm the way the Dawi fathom time.
 
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I feel like you make a lot of 100% definitive statements on stuff you have about 60% evidence for.

Its not like the mages in Kislev are *less* likely to explode into demons than the ones in the empire. If magic phobia is driven by that reality and not just religious dogma then there's no reason for it to be lessened in areas of greater risk.
It's a bit different from the Empire.

Kislev has had the Ice and Hag Witches since before there was a Kislev. They've spent significant periods of time ruled by Ice Witches. Their equivalent to Sigmar was an Ice Witch.

Their children that are born with magical potential have widespread, institutional magical traditions to be taught, rather than the pre-Colleges experience in the Empire of mostly having to make it up as they go along.

(And those traditions, themselves, are less likely to 'explode into daemons' in Kislev)

To quote Realm of the Ice Queen (page 108):
Unlike the Empire, Kislev's magical traditions have long been accepted by its people. This tolerance is unthinkable to many Old Worlders, who rightly fear magic for the danger it is. But most Kislevites do not share this view and openly embrace their old ways; indeed, their current ruler, Tzarina Katarin Bokha, is a witch.

The Kislevite pragmatic nature is a strong influence on this acceptance. After all, Kislev's witches fend off the marauders of the north, so why revile them? However, as Kislev was also founded by a witch, supported by witches, and is currently ruled by a witch, it should be no surprise to see them so widely accepted.
 
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I feel like you make a lot of 100% definitive statements on stuff you have about 60% evidence for.

Its not like the mages in Kislev are *less* likely to explode into demons than the ones in the empire. If magic phobia is driven by that reality and not just religious dogma then there's no reason for it to be lessened in areas of greater risk.

First off some arguments as to why that is most likely not the case:
  1. Kislev has two arcane traditions, much older and more respected than the Colleges of Magic which means that girls at least are likely to be directed to the nearest witch, not burned
  2. Kislev has no illegal magical traditions which means that any men with the talent who do not want to suppress it get on a horse and head to the Empire. Some of them may be killed.
But having said that why am I the one who has to substantiate this? Do you have a source for the presumed burning of the magically gifted or is this just deduction?

I never projected Empire mores in Kislev. I stated that this will set the mood for the stone deployment in general, thus affecting the peasants of the Empire. Unless we get a vote for every stone deployment we wanted to make, this is THE vote about stone deployment. Thus, it makes sense that following stones will be deployed under the same logic.

And maybe more stones deployed due to the rich liking us is better on the long term the way humans fathom time, but more commonfolk liking wizards is better in the longterm the way the Dawi fathom time.

The peasants of the Empire neither speak Kislevite, nor could most of them find Praag on a map to save their lives. Hell they think of people one province over as weirdos and foreigners, if not two villages over.
 
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Their children that are born with magical potential have widespread, institutional magical traditions to be taught, rather than the pre-Colleges experience in the Empire of mostly having to make it up as they go along.

(And those traditions, themselves, are less likely to 'explode into daemons' in Kislev)

Female children. Pretty sure the male ones are still largely killed for fear of what they would do with or to magic.

So sure, at least 50% less burning. Probably less than that even, since wasting firewood to kill someone is best done near forests.

But that's not no burning.
 
Female children. Pretty sure the male ones are still largely killed for fear of what they would do with or to magic.

So sure, at least 50% less burning. Probably less than that even, since wasting firewood to kill someone is best done near forests.

But that's not no burning.
Men are killed if they are discovered to be attempting to use magic.

It's not great, but it's not a status that is going to be impacted by anything Mathilde does in Praag.
 
By what mechanism? Are we going to stir the hell neighborhood in each and every one of their villages? It can't be repetition because Praag is unique and it can't be communication because it's at the end of the world and peasants are insular.

We are setting expectations generally and setting the pace. I want an expectation of wizards bettering the standards of living, because that means we'll be contacted to deploy Waystones first where it may most better the standards of living, which will trickle down, if not to the average peasant, at least to people who could become like the soldier that saved Mathilde's life as a child.
 
Don't really know what Norland can really do to build a lasting peace. The peace treaty already signed and now enforced seems to be established and I don't think Tor Lithane is interested in renegotiating it.
This is actually really easy, though. They already have a peace treaty; they just need to actually follow it. Notably, Laurelorn isn't preparing or even considering an attack on Nordland; if anything, it's afraid of Nordland going on the attack.

A really good start would be to formally apologize for violating the existing treaty and stand down its buildup of forces along the border with Laurelorn. Then work on normalizing relations--establishing some trade (even if it starts out meager), setting up an embassy to facilitate communication, build on Middenland's alliance with Laurelorn rather than pick at it (even if the religious dispute remains, which has a fair basis independent of anything else), establish free passage of eonir through Nordland, etc..

Remove the specter of future conflict and the incentives for positive relations overwhelm the incentives for putting up a wall, so to speak.
 
We are setting expectations generally and setting the pace. I want an expectation of wizards bettering the standards of living, because that means we'll be contacted to deploy Waystones first where it may most better the standards of living, which will trickle down, if not to the average peasant, at least to people who could become like the soldier that saved Mathilde's life as a child.

You still have not explained how we are setting expectations

Step 1: Clear Novograd first
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Peasants in the Empire do not like Waystones

Yes the first stones will not be in places that make people most comfortable (they would not have been anyway because we made these things too expensive for that) but that just means no Waystones soon. The Waystones will still arrive and the peasants will still eventually get a better standard of living, it's just we will be focusing on turning off the monster tap in places like Mordheim and the Forest of Shadows first. Funnily enough not being eaten by monsters, also good for the standard of living.
 
You still have not explained how we are setting expectations

I thought that was because Boney did.

And note, the word used below isn't peasants, it's citizens. So the burghers and the traders and the artisans who have contacts in other cities and countries are going to report that:

in the immediate term most citizens of Praag will only know of riled-up denizens of Chaos and the inevitable death toll that taking and holding parts of New Town to establish Waystones within them will reap.

Eventually it'll get better. But it'll be a question of whether the correction makes it as far as the initial rumors do.
 
I thought that was because Boney did.

And note, the word used below isn't peasants, it's citizens. So the burghers and the traders and the artisans who have contacts in other cities and countries are going to report that:



Eventually it'll get better. But it'll be a question of whether the correction makes it as far as the initial rumors do.

Yes, citizens of Praag, as in inhabitants of the city of Praag. 'Citizens of the Empire' are an anachronism and do not exist and we were talking about imperials far away. At no point did I say the people of Praag would not be upset at their monster quarter getting more active before it withers.

The citizens of for example Aldorf still do not speak Kislevite, also could not find Praag on a map for the most part and are fully aware that the problems of the most cursed place in the Old World are not theirs. So again I have to ask who is burning more witches and/or being upset at the stones besides the people of Praag?
 
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You still have not explained how we are setting expectations

Step 1: Clear Novograd first
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Peasants in the Empire do not like Waystones

Yes the first stones will not be in places that make people most comfortable (they would not have been anyway because we made these things too expensive for that) but that just means no Waystones soon. The Waystones will still arrive and the peasants will still eventually get a better standard of living, it's just we will be focusing on turning off the monster tap in places like Mordheim and the Forest of Shadows first. Funnily enough not being eaten by monsters, also good for the standard of living.

First of all, I, unlike some others, do not think any of our options have negatives. We are just choosing what we want to gain the most of, and what I want the most of is wizard PR. Because that goes beyond Waystones in long term benefits.

Secondly, do you think that the deployment in Sylvania won't have a similar dichotomy of prioritizing helping the villagers vs excising the vampires? Or that even the Waystones deployed in harsher areas won't also have a choice of prioritising exterminating the threat or prioritising making sure the threat won't cause any collateral to innocents while its going down? Because if I was a gribbly and someone put Waystones near me, I'd rage and possibly attack innocents that lived near my area, even if none lived IN it.

This will affect the whole deployment strategy and possibly PR. And it is a question of "acting to kill the enemies of man as efficiently as possible" or "prioritize civilian safety". And sure, no matter what, we ARE kicking the enemies of man in the shivs and we ARE making life better for people, but what we prioritize will affect stuff like casualties, speed, flashiness (and thus funding), thoroughness, who are the major backers, etc.

All choices have their upsides, and I believe prioritizing safety has the upside of better PR with the commonfolk, because how we deploy it now will be how we are asked to deploy it elsewhere.
 
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First of all, I, unlike some others, do not think any of our options have negatives. We are just choosing what we want to gain the most of, and what I want the most of is wizard PR. Because that goes beyond Waystones in long term benefits.

Secondly, do you think that the deployment in Sylvania won't have a similar dichotomy of prioritizing helping the villagers vs excising the vampires? Or that even the Waystones deployed in harsher areas won't also have a choice of prioritising exterminating the threat or prioritising making sure the threat won't cause any collateral to innocents while its going down? Because if I was a gribbly and someone put Waystones near me, I'd rage and possibly attack innocents.

This will affect the whole deployment strategy and possibly PR. And it is a question of "acting to kill the enemies of man as efficiently as possible" or "prioritize civilian safety". And sure, no matter what, we ARE kicking the enemies of man in the shivs and we ARE making life better for people, but what we prioritize will affect stuff like casualties, speed, flashiness (and thus funding), thoroughness, who are the major backers, etc.

All choices have their upsides, and I believe prioritizing safety has the upside of better PR with the commonfolk, because how we deploy it now will be how we are asked to deploy it elsewhere.

I think a majority of Sylvanians are latent vampire cultists so they will probably be upset at us for killing their potential masters. They have been self selecting for it by migration for centuries and only been free and exposed to gods for two decades. Which is to say I do not think our glorious Dhar scrubbers will be winning them over either way until they are good and convinced that Dhar and necromancy are in fact bad.
 
I think a majority of Sylvanians are latent vampire cultists so they will probably be upset at us for killing their potential masters. They have been self selecting for it by migration for centuries and only been free and exposed to gods for two decades. Which is to say I do not think our glorious Dhar scrubbers will be winning them over either way until they are good and convinced that Dhar and necromancy are in fact bad.

...You do understand that, if what you say is true, then placing the stones in a way that maximizes comfort and minimizes casualties is even more imperative for pacifying the region, right? It helps convince them we are better than the vampires. The alternative would make them even more radicalized as vampire cultists.
 
...You do understand that, if what you say is true, then placing the stones in a way that maximizes comfort and minimizes casualties is even more imperative for pacifying the region, right? It helps convince them we are better than the vampires.

Conversation with the average Sylvanian (TM), exaggerated to illustrate my point:

Priest of Morr: If we put this rock here there won't be anymore dire wolves prowling on the moor and no more foul Ghouls will rise to trouble the living
Average Sylvanian (TM): My cousin Gheorge is a ghoul and he ain't hurt no one. Well OK he killed and half-ate that peddler that one time, but he brought us the watch afterwards, cleaned up right pretty. Wanna see?
Priest of Morr:...:facepalm:

They do not have the same standard for 'bad' as everyone else, they have adapted to the bad magic in ways no one else has (for good reason) Sylvanians require everything from missionary work and religious education to sending in the witch hunters to comb the place for the next decade.
 
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Conversation with the average Sylvanian (TM), exaggerated to illustrate my point:

Priest of Morr: If we put this rock here there won't be anymore dire wolves prowling on the moor and no more foul Ghouls will rise to trouble the living
Average Sylvanian (TM): My cousin Gheorge is a ghoul and he ain't hurt no one. Well OK he ate killed and half ate that peddler that one time, but he brought us the watch afterwards, cleaned up right pretty. Wanna see?
Priest of Morr:...:facepalm:

They do not have the same standard for 'bad' as everyone else, they have adapted to the bad magic in ways no one else has (for good reason) Sylvanians require everything from missionary work and religious education to sending in the witch hunters to comb the place for the next decade.

So you think this conversation will go better?

Average Sylvanian (TM) My cousin Gheorge got enraged and attacked me yesterday. He ate my arm. These stones are evil.
Priest of Morr: These stones purify Dhar.
Average Sylvanian {TM) Yeah, and since you placed it here, we had no peace. Everything has been attacking us. At least vampires left us alone while we paid the blood tax.

Is this a better alternative?
 
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Disagree. Nobles only know what people tell them. If no one tells them about the wizard, the wizard doesn't get burnt.

They are, in the end, just humans like every other human. The ability to order people to act in your interests is just social convention.
And social conventions work enough that they keep existing. Most noble have indeed figured out people would lie to them so they now how to deal with it, infact they have for the entire history of the Empire. If people could just hide stuff like wizards hedgewise would not be so threthened. More to point if hiding stuff was that easy they would start with taxes. Everybody hates it and yet they can never really hide their valuables enough to get out of it. So forgive me if I find your assertion that just keep it secret a very doubtful premise.

Did you forget, like, THE MAIN CHARACTER'S BACKSTORY?
Did you? Because you seem to have forgotten that a lawman saved Mathilde and that lawman was assigned by nobles. If nobles were to put resources in to it they can clearly stop peasants from burning mages.
No witch hunter wanted her dead. No man in power wanted her dead. Superstitious peasants wanted her dead.
And Mathilde is not dead therefore my theory that nobles are more important than peasants in determining mages fate is supported by the text. Your logic that some people in the boonies more important on the other hand is very suspect and I don't see any support for that position.
Unlike some people think, "the masses" act on their own and are not fully controlled. And unlike some optimists think, this is not always a good thing, if you teach them to hate, they can hate more than you even expected or wanted, beyond your control.
Uhuh, and Sigmarites have been teaching masses to hate witches at every mass for literal eons and still Magnus was able to put a stop to it with a single law. Just because some less than %1 have not gotten with the times in the boonies and still try to burn mages is no proof that masses are actually more important than nobles. You are literally arguing that handful of edge cases like Mathilde is more important than vast majority of the others who does indeed get protected by the laws.

I think now I can now see your point of view tough, you don't belive that laws matter and nobles have any power at all. You think masses are where real power rests and that said masses are going to use it whenever they like so you want to court that.

But the thing is that is completely inaccurate. Especially in a near feudal society like this, Because you are ignoring entire armies worth of armed man all of which is either noble children or people who bought in to the feudal system and loyally serving said nobles so peasants can rebel all they want, they will always get crushed and everybody knows it. So rebellions -real ones not just random riots- happen very rarely so it will never happen on this issue. Hell single lawman was enough to stare down an entire village on the reputation of the laws and nobles that back them and said village backed down. And if they were to rebel and kill the lawman it is perfect excuse for local noble to come in with the hammer and come out richer from the issue at the expanse of the village as whole.

So yes. Ignoring anectodial evidance and looking at statistical realities, I firmly believe that backing nobles will save more mages by the numbers. Your position thereffore is the train problem where you are arguing to change the track to save one person and ignoring the other 3 tied to other track because you don't believe that they exist.

I completely disagree.
 
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You still have not explained how we are setting expectations

Step 1: Clear Novograd first
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Peasants in the Empire do not like Waystones

Step 1: Building of Waystone provokes biggest Chaos activity and casualties in Praag in recent time, which probably include nobility and merchants.
Step 2: War actions in one of the biggest cities of Kislev draw attention to it, including foreign people.
Step 3: Stories about it spread through Kislev and Empire, with connection between newly installed magic stone and massive chaos attacks.
Step 4: Leaders, who already have problems, would think twice before allowing to put such troublesome invention, which promise to draw even more problems. And leaders without active problems with chaos will think even more. And Empire's leaders will, probably, already be distrustful because of magic.

I don't think it will go this way, but line of thoughts is there.
 
So you think this conversation will go better?

Average Sylvanian (TM) My cousin Gheorge got enraged and attacked me yesterday. He ate my arm. These stones are evil.
Priest of Morr: These stones purify Dhar.
Average Sylvanian {TM) Yeah, and since you placed it here, we had no peace. Everything has been attacking us. At least vampires left us alone while we paid the blood tax.

Is this a better alternative?

I think that for the foreseeable future both are going to require about the same number of state troops yeah. Sylvania is and will remain for a while an occupied land.

Step 1: Building of Waystone provokes biggest Chaos activity and casualties in Praag in recent time, which probably include nobility and merchants.
Step 2: War actions in one of the biggest cities of Kislev draw attention to it, including foreign people.
Step 3: Stories about it spread through Kislev and Empire, with connection between newly installed magic stone and massive chaos attacks.
Step 4: Leaders, who already have problems, would think twice before allowing to put such troublesome invention, which promise to draw even more problems. And leaders without active problems with chaos will think even more. And Empire's leaders will, probably, already be distrustful because of magic.

I don't think it will go this way, but line of thoughts is there.

What War actions? There are gribbles in Novograd not an army, a few cultists, maybe a mage or two. Also 'Most Cursed City in the Old World is agitated, must be Thursday', thoughts of a Burgher in Aldorf.
 
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And Mathilde is not dead therefore my theory that nobles are more important than peasants in determining mages fate is supported by the text. Your logic that some people in the boonies more important on the other hand is very suspect and I don't see any support for that position.
If that intervention was reliable, the town wouldn't have tried to lynch Mathilde in the first place. What you are describing is a patchwork attempt to fight back against public lawbreaking - meaning the nobles are already trying to determine those would-be mages fate, and face public perception as an obstacle to that.

This rather indicates that changing the public perception is the lower hanging fruit. Much better to not have an attempted lynching to stop in the first place than to hope that nobles given waystones will, for some reason, increase funding and manpower overseeing villages for the purpose of stopping more lynchings even though that has zero impact on the acquisition and operation of waystones.
 
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