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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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My thoughts as someone who does not really have that much riding on the kid since I am not that invested in imperial politics are as follows

Aqshy
+Would be the easiest transition for him while providing a lot of utility to play to his strengths
+The Indic version would allow for perhaps the rise of a new aspect of the Imperial Bright mage focused on leadership, sort of like that Elephantine School we have been half jokingly theorized about only more likely to happen since Mandred is going to be much more in the public eye
-The Marks are not the best and they might make him actively worse at intrigue at which he is already pretty bad

Chamon
+He has an affinity for it, particularly the elemntal aspects, one that is only rivaled by Johann
+He could cast in armor, including Grormil armor it comes to is
+Mechanically the most powerful wind, assuming he can manage the mystical aspects too
-Coldly logical by inclination it would actually play against his strengths of being personable
-Associated with 'those bastards who make piles of money... it's gotta be immoral.' Feudal lords like money fine, but they do not like a money-man
-Has a literal immortality ritual, all wizards have the potential to be long lived if they delve into their wind enough, this is the only one that has the temptation front and center. Given that his mother took that deal with the blessing she has I would not assume Mandred is above the temptation. Needless to say it would screw the feudal system so bad it might cause a civil war to have an immortal EC.

Ulgu
+Would shore up his weakest stat
+We can take him on as an apprentice when the time comes, as has been shown with Eike Mathilde's many weird interests and exotic skills make for some very impressive apprentices, not to mention that he would have an inherent in with the Dwarfs just from being of her line as a wizard
+It would allow us to nurture his faith in Ranald, which is you know inherently useful for a wizard since he has been dedicated and that is his 'don't fall to Chaos' score
-One of the worst marks he could get in the form of Trickster and a few other bad ones beside
-Everyone is scared of the secret police, does not matter how many times you say 'diplomat', that just means you have immunity :V
-He does not actually have a strong affinity for the culture of the Grey College, he is not a sneaky kid or for that matter quietly observant like Eike
 
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Neablis said:
Likewise, the Jades are a bad fit for two reasons. First, the 13th Everchosen is on the horizon. No matter how the EverchosenBowl turns out, it's going to be a doozy. Having a nurturer is not what the empire needs. Second, making Reikland a breadbasket is a inherently political move, and that could cause strife with other provinces in a way that demonstrably does not lean into his strengths.
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I agree broadly with point 1, but point 2 is kinda eh?? The Riekland is already a breadbasket. Mathilde just discovered the specific thing that makes it so and gave it to the custody of the Jades. And while increasing production is political in that it needs resources, I'm not sure "it'd be nice to have more food" is that hard of a sell.

But in general I'm leaning towards the Brights. I'm also not sure if Law of Logic et al are really gonna translate to flat +5-20 on everything, the math in thr RPG game doesn't really translate to this format one to one
 
Don't have much thoughts solidified enough to voice on the update right now but from the posts before it...
Andres said:
WFRP 2e: Tome of Salvation, page 151
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The obvious reading is murderous betrayal of generosity, but given Mathilde's doom and what came of it, I wonder if another reading also applies: "In the heat of battle, in the moment where you come closest to death, someone who has found no other way to repay you will come to your aid."

Since it seems from there that a dooming is always about how you may come close to death, but not always the end itself.
 
DragonParadox said:
-Has a literal immortality ritual, all wizards have the potential to be long lived if they delve into their wind enough, this is the only one that has the temptation front and center. Given that his mother took that deal with the blessing she has I would not assume Mandred is above the temptation. Needless to say it would screw the feudal so bad it might cause a civil war to have an immortal EC.
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This doesn't seem like a real complaint. As you note, other Winds can do this in theory, and if he does wind up immortal he could just abdicate in favor of his children. That's the logical move, after all.

DragonParadox said:
-Coldly logical by inclination it would actually play against his strengths of being personable
-Associated with 'those bastards who make piles of money... it's gotta be immoral.' Feudal lords like money fine, but they do not like a money-man
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I'm not sure I buy these either, honestly. Johann is hardly un-personable, as one Gold Wizard example, and from what we've heard Golds are one of the better-liked Colleges among the nobility specifically because of the money thing. Gold has some legit downsides (specifically, the greater tendency to rigidity and becoming uncompromising leaps to mind), but I don't think these are them.
 
A_Somebody said:
I agree broadly with point 1, but point 2 is kinda eh?? The Riekland is already a breadbasket. Mathilde just discovered the specific thing that makes it so and gave it to the custody of the Jades. And while increasing production is political in that it needs resources, I'm not sure "it'd be nice to have more food" is that hard of a sell.

But in general I'm leaning towards the Brights. I'm also not sure if Law of Logic et al are really gonna translate to flat +5-20 on everything, the math in thr RPG game doesn't really translate to this format one to one
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Law of Logic is a +20 bonus, from when Maximilian used it.

But it's probably not applicable to everything, or the bonus isn't so massive when you can't sit and think things through thoroughly.
Drafting a proposal for a new law, yes.
Calming down rioting peasants, no.
 
The Golds are viewed well by most people except starving peasants, who value them in a more... Material sense.

The Phoenixian said:
Don't have much thoughts solidified enough to voice on the update right now but from the posts before it...

The obvious reading is murderous betrayal of generosity, but given Mathilde's doom and what came of it, I wonder if another reading also applies: "In the heat of battle, in the moment where you come closest to death, someone who has found no other way to repay you will come to your aid."

Since it seems from there that a dooming is always about how you may come close to death, but not always the end itself.
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In the rules, the dooming is explicitly for the GM flavoring the foreshadowing for your inevitable death, usually after you run out of Fate Points (a stat you can burn to get out of dying).

You can forestall it by getting new Fate points, representing a new lease on life, which makes the omens go away, but the point is that it's how Morr tells you that he's got your number, and you should get your prayers done and stuff.

Ruleslawyering it doesn't beat it. It's a cheeky superstition to feel better about the idea that'll work for us until the day it doesn't.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
This doesn't seem like a real complaint. As you note, other Winds can do this in theory, and if he does wind up immortal he could just abdicate in favor of his children. That's the logical move, after all.
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History is ah... not very neat when it comes to abdications. If there is an immortal Mandred in the winds no EC of Reikland will ever feel safe in their position. He 'd have the blood claim and everyone knows he could do the job. An abdication is just words.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I'm not sure I buy these either, honestly. Johann is hardly un-personable, as one Gold Wizard example, and from what we've heard Golds are one of the better-liked Colleges among the nobility specifically because of the money thing. Gold has some legit downsides (specifically, the greater tendency to rigidity and becoming uncompromising leaps to mind), but I don't think these are them.
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They are one of the better known colleges they might even technically be liked, but more in the way one of those nobles might like their common-born factotum 'good lad, does the work, wouldn't want my daughter marrying him'.
 
IronFist said:
Law of Logic is a +20 bonus, from when Maximilian used it.

But it's probably not applicable to everything, or the bonus isn't so massive when you can't sit and think things through thoroughly.
Drafting a proposal for a new law, yes.
Calming down rioting peasants, no.
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Probably very applicable for things you put your learning advisor on.
 
DragonParadox said:
History is ah... not very neat when it comes to abdications. If there is an immortal Mandred in the winds no EC of Reikland will ever feel safe in their position. He 'd have the blood claim and everyone knows he could do the job. An abdication is just words.
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Then the correct thing to do is fake his death (after the abdication). Something his mother is an expert in.

DragonParadox said:
They are one of the better known colleges they might even technically be liked, but more in the way one of those nobles might like their common-born factotum 'good lad, does the work, wouldn't want my daughter marrying him'.
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Sure...but that's a lot better than the rep of most Colleges. That's definitely not an attitude worth listing as a negative, IMO.
 
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DragonParadox said:
They are one of the better known colleges they might even technically be liked, but more in the way one of those nobles might like their common-born factotum 'good lad, does the work, wouldn't want my daughter marrying him'.
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They aren't poor enough to be looked down on like that. These guys are responsible for most of the alchemical products in existence.

That includes all the magical beauty products that the game writers wrote out half a page for just so you got the idea that they're the real deal. Alchemy is serious social business.
Valmond said:
Probably very applicable for things you put your learning advisor on.
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I remember how the premise of the quest was that you sort of just have to take your learning advisor's word on an action taking 500 gold and three months exactly, and that there's a lot of room for grey areas there.

Unless you know a little more about the subject, I guess. That might be helpful.
 
Gentlemen worried about Mandred's chances of becoming emperor. I doubt we really need to worry about this. Let's be honest, given the pace of progress in the quest's chronology, the question of Mandred's election as emperor will most likely worry our children and grandchildren. I can even make an extrapolation graph!
 
chocolote12 said:
They aren't poor enough to be looked down on like that. These guys are responsible for most of the alchemical products in existence.

That includes all the magical beauty products that they wrote out half a page for. Alchemy is serious social business.
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The point was not that they are poor, it is that they smell of 'trade', a thing which no proper aristocrat would directly partake in. In the kind of society we are dealing with the guy who makes perfume is not the same social class to the noble who uses it no matter how good they are at it
 
And there is an additional factor to think about that we should remember now. Aren't the Brights required to take a vow of celibacy? This is useful when it comes to ensuring that there are no unwanted contenders for the title, but it is a problem for the future Prince of Reikland.
 
Valmond said:
It's worse than general respect offered to the brights.
Better than the fear grey's get.
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Brights have a good rep with the army, not the nobility. Those are not the same thing. I'm pretty sure Golds have a better rep with nobles.

DragonParadox said:
For a noble it kind of is since you know... Mandred might want to make a marriage alliance with one of them. Contrasting with say the Brights which probably have a lot of noble sons and daughters simply because of their partial reputation
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That's the attitude that the nobles have towards Random gold Magister #3, not an Elector Count. Mandred is not gonna have notable trouble getting married, and inasmuch as being a Wizard interferes at all, I very much doubt his College of choice will effect it much. And, as I mention above, I'm not sure where the idea that the nobility likes the Brights comes from? I can't recall any statements to that effect.

Inasmuch as I can find any statements, they say that opinion is divided, with some seeing Brights as heroes and others seeing them as deeply dangerous and being afraid of their tempers. But even that is general statements, not stuff about the nobility.
 
Karlov said:
And there is an additional factor to think about that we should remember now. Aren't the Brights required to take a vow of celibacy? This is useful when it comes to ensuring that there are no unwanted contenders for the title, but it is a problem for the future Prince of Reikland.
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Nope. The Brights, Jades and Ambers are the colleges most likely to have children.

Iirc, the only ones with celibacy are the Light Order.
Amethyst wizards probably have some problems having children though, given they're infused with the wind of death.
 
Blackout said:
Chamon will serve him excellently on and off the battlefield, allows him to wear armour, and Gehenna has confirmed that he has a strong affinity for it. While a Bright Mandred using the indic paradigm could perhaps match the usefulness, Boney has hinted he might not actually have that much natural affinity for Aqshy, just the Bright College culture, and I don't want to push a whole new paradigm on the Emperor's son. As interesting as it would be to learn more about the indic methods of using Aqshy, this is a case where boring and safe wins out over cool and experimental.
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<.<
>.>

[ ] Gold, for somehow favour trading that the Bright College does an honest (as in 'more than perfunctory') investigation into incorporating the Indic paradigm of Aqshy

I'm sure that'll go over well. :p
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Actually. Here's an idea for something to ask for a possible 'Morb boon', though I haven't thought much about the viability/impact or value:

The colleges investigate developing pathways/streams/teaching approaches that would be better suited for 'atypical' wizards of a college, and identfying those apprentices so they have more directions that they are supported in flourishing in rather than have a shit time being pushed to conform to a style/approach that just isn't them.
 
DragonParadox said:
-Has a literal immortality ritual, all wizards have the potential to be long lived if they delve into their wind enough, this is the only one that has the temptation front and center. Given that his mother took that deal with the blessing she has I would not assume Mandred is above the temptation. Needless to say it would screw the feudal system so bad it might cause a civil war to have an immortal EC.
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As a note, nobody in history has successfully completed the Gilding process and survived gilding their brain. It's not really an immortality ritual until it makes someone immortal; until then it's more of a complex and expensive suicide method.

Partial gilding has a lot of benefits, though.
 
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