- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Incarnate Elementals are just barely on this side of acceptable.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Personally I'd like to do a deal with the Druuchi. I think it's one which could benefit the Empire (or Mathilde personally), without actually endangering the Empire.
But each time it's come up it seems to be stopped by "They're Druuchi. I don't want to make a deal with Druuchi", and that's it. I mean, it's kind of hard to make any kind of argument against that.
Personally I don't get the difference between that and buying magical loot in Uzkulak (including from a Druuchi).
But each time it's come up it seems to be stopped by "They're Druuchi. I don't want to make a deal with Druuchi", and that's it. I mean, it's kind of hard to make any kind of argument against that.
Personally I don't get the difference between that and buying magical loot in Uzkulak (including from a Druuchi).
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
A lot of it is people being convinced by their memetic reputation that any possible deal with the Druuchi will mean Mathilde is inevitably betrayed in all circumstances.
In reality, they're as capable of mutually beneficial arrangements as anyone not completely insane - you just have to make sure at no point in the deal is it to their benefit to screw you over, because they'll do it without reservations. Short-term deals and trades where it's not possible for the situation to develop in such a fashion are perfectly safe.
You'd have to be some sort of dubious rat-man to betray someone you're working with even at your own expense, and we all know those don't exist
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I definitely think we should at some point exchange magical lore with the Druchii. Nothing on the Winds of course (that'd be against the Articles), but it should be fair game to give them our notes on Waaagh and Peace, let them copy our books on Skaven Warp Magic, Beastman Wild Magic, etc. Like, as long as it's something that can hurt mutual enemies of ours and the Druchii themselves cannot do, it's probably fine and may give us access to magical stuff that may be valuable to us but doesn't seem all that worth it to them.
And there's no real downside to negotiating with them to get information on when certain raids will come. It is in the interests of those we would negotiate with to see their rivals' ships fall so they can profit from them needing new ones.
And there's no real downside to negotiating with them to get information on when certain raids will come. It is in the interests of those we would negotiate with to see their rivals' ships fall so they can profit from them needing new ones.
- Location
- Australia
[X] [ITHILMAR] Precious Stones
[X] Entrance Examination
[X] Niedzwenka
[X] The Festival Lord
[X] Initiate
[X] Middenland
[X] Entrance Examination
[X] Niedzwenka
[X] The Festival Lord
[X] Initiate
[X] Middenland
Unfortunately it probably still depends on what they give out - do we really want to empower the Druchii with whatever loot they may get from them, even if said empowering will be at the expense of our other enemies?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Personally, I think the answer is now "no". It was a justifiably open question before we made contact with the Asur, but since we now wish to pry open relations with Ulthuan we're stuck with the fact that any inconvenience removed for Naggaroth means they have more resources left over for fighting the 'false' phoenix king.
In that respect, even giving them Waaagh and Peace could cause problems.
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NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
- Location
- Places
Waaagh and Peace I would maybe be willing to trade, but Skaven and Beastman magic are both Dhar based, and The Druuchi could likely pull things out of them if not learn them whole sale.
I don't want Druuchi with Eshin ninja magic.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I'd be fine with giving them Waaagh and Peace. The Greenskins winning more battles against the Dark Elves would mean more Greenskins going out to attack polities we like, too.
I'm fine with empowering one enemy against another, if we can get something beneficial out of it for the Empire. That's a net positive for Order.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd say yes. We've done this before, when we let Mors control Under-Karagril in K8P to make them the bigger threat in the eyes of Skryre and Eshin.
Hell, the entire reason our Waaagh and Peace lectures were publicly held was because it was deemed that Waaaghbane couldn't really be used to the detriment of anyone but Greenskins. I'd consider it lessening them rather than empowering the Druchii.
It's a grey area, but goddamn if we're not a Grey Wizard. And if you want to benefit in trade you have to offer up something on your own side.
I'm given to understand Skaven Warp Magic requires actually worshiping the Horned Rat, and we don't actually have anything on the Eshin Lore of Stealth - no books or anything, just our own paper proving its existence.
It's my assumption that Beastman Wild Magic is too brutish and animalistic for Druchii to realistically reduce themselves to using, but... you're right, they could theoretically use it and that's not ideal.
Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
- Location
- At Home
While sometimes penal units were formed for use in forlorn hopes or picked out of the ranks deliberately (or by lottery), more often than not all the troops in the ad-hoc unit would be volunteers, lured by the prospect of doubled pay and a guaranteed promotion if they survived. They were prolific enough in the Landsknecht to earn their own unique name, the Doppelsoldners or 'double-wagers'.
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I'm skeptical about giving them any of the stuff we know about the Empire's enemies except Waaagh and peace, ironically. I want the Druchii to bleed more against any of their enemies. But Waaagh and Peace has been spread across the entire continent. Ulthuan will get copies. Ulthuan is infamous for how infiltrated by Druchii spies it is. I think it's inevitable that they will get their hands on Waaagh and Peace. But who knows how far off that is, or how far the faction sponsoring that spy will spread it. They might keep it to themselves so they can let other Druchii comparatively flounder against the greenskins. That would certainly happen to if we sell it to this faction of Druchii.
So, if we hasten the time it takes for this faction of Druchii to get the book, assuming they haven't gotten it already, we can get a payment of magical lore out of it. I am conflicted about whether we should do it or not.
On the other hand, it is much more likely for greenskins in Naggaroth to stay in Naggaroth and purely be a problem there. That means less living Druchii. In comparison, giving them the book means less greenskins causing problems in Naggaroth, which means more living Druchii, which means that there will be more problems around the world. But we also have to consider that they probably will get the book eventually if they don't have it already.
Edit: Though now that I think about it we're in a vote about getting access to Eonir books about magic. So it seems reasonable to think that many in the Empire would see it as a violation of the Articles.
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- Location
- Australia
Was just making a little reference.
View: https://youtu.be/i5v6hPr6L7U?t=25
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTMLjC9ZpUM
The Druchii are a continent away. The greenskins, skaven, and beastmen they fight aren't the same greenskins, skaven, and beastmen we fight. Empowering the Druchii against those three won't make our lives better, it'd only make the Druchii's lives better, and that's bad for us.
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I find it hard to believe that the Druuchi don't know about the Dhar+Wind Lores considering their magical tradition is Dhar (well True Dhar to be exact, whatever that is). So either they know and use it or most likely they know and don't use it for some reason (probably because they think it's below them or something).
- Pronouns
- He/Him
They may know a set of dhar+wind lores, but that does not mean they know clan Eshin's lore. Or Nagash's lore. Or the beastmen's lore. But if they were to learn, it's a pretty good bet that their overall capability with Dhar would improve at least marginally even if we suppose their dhar magic is just superior.
- Location
- wild blue yonder
This is basically it.
I was swinging for us dealing with the Druuchi too, if only because we're one of the only of the few people in the Empire who could absolutely pull it off - and in the paraphrased words of the Dresden Files, of course we'll be dealing in treachery. The trick is preemptive and more creative treachery, which is our entire wheelhouse.
Unfortunately, the general feel seems to be that we'd be Quantum Betrayed (IE, no matter what we do, the thousands year old murder elves will have already seen it coming and out-betray us) and lose, which would unacceptably give some advantage to them. I recall at some point the idea being brought up that taking an offer from the Druuchi would essentially be agreeing to 12-dimensional Knife Chess with Morathi (which I don't necessarily agree with).
I would argue (politely) that not only was buying all that loot from the Chaos Dwarves the same thing and we seemed to be fine with that, but also that the Dark Elf we punched out in Eight Peaks and delivered gift-wrapped to the Asur was pretty clear evidence that they're not all unstoppable masterminds.
However, given that the Druuchi option is way at the bottom, it's sort of a moot point at the present and not really worth getting worked up about. All we can do is keep voting when it comes up.
From what I know of Naggaroth's location geopolitically, I'd say the main stuff I'd be fine passing in their direction is any of the anti-Chaos stuff, since they're right up against them in the northwest. Hell, I wouldn't be against tossing the tip their way that there might be an Everchosen in the works sometime soon - let the murder elves and apocalyptic cultists kill each other off and spare Ordertide lives.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Anti-chaos stuff, huh? Well, that's certainly a thought. While the "what helps them hurts uthuan" rule of thumb still applies to some degree, it's not impossible that convincing them that a new everchosen is on the horizon leads to them changing focus for a while and letting pressure up... though I can't think of how we'd corroborate such a claim well enough for any movers and shakers to act on it.
Speaking personally I was never all that taken with the memetic betrayal stuff - mostly I was just dubious that we could get much of value out of the sorceress back when that update was new, and concerned that being seen as dealing with them might make other diplomatic efforts down the line harder.
Honestly it kinda just sounds like a lot of people have just read a pile of stories with sudden yet inevitable druchii betrayals and kneejerked away from the narrative red flag.
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Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
By this same logic, the Druchii also aren't that much of a threat because they're a continent away, but we know that's not the case because overall they travel around on their ships pillaging and raiding anything they can.
And you know what? Greenskins and Skaven can also travel around a lot - Skaven more than Greenskins, but both have been known to travel across continents. So I do not in any sense view it as a deal-breaker that the Druchii would be somewhat empowered. I do think a blow against some Skaven is a blow against overall Skavendom.
I do think that they may consider it beneath them, but you're right: it's possible because unlike Waaagh Magic or Skaven Warp Magic, Beastman Wild Magic doesn't seem to actually require worshiping an alien god that may preemptively reject you.
I don't trust the Druchii to not occasionally have Chaos-worshiping rebels who actually use Chaos Sorcery, so I'd consider sharing those a bad idea.
- Location
- Aotearoa
What? No. I object to that characterisation.
Mathilde isn't in the habit of betrayal and treachery. It's not her stock in trade.
Taking advantage of people's assumptions is certainly fair game, and deception through omission comes to her as naturally as breathing, but she invariably intends to stick to the deals she makes, as the other party understands them.
I don't think the same argument applies here. The Druchii are famous for sailing around the world, not as much as the Norscans, but still known for it. They aren't a problem for the Empire because Marienburg took the coastline with it in the divorce. But they are for the rest of the Old World. Greenskins aren't really famous for ship quality. So the harm greenskins in Naggaroth will inflict on the Old World is much less than the Druchii can. The Skaven Underempire is renowned for its global reach and how utterly incapable it is of getting along. So dealing a blow to a portion in Naggaroth cannot be relied upon to be more helpful for the Old World than letting the Druchii bleed more against them.
But at the same time, Ulthuan has Waaagh and Peace. It isn't going to leave that knowledge locked up in the White Tower and forget about it. Any of its mages that fight greenskins or expect to will be interested in reading it. So to will many Princes. A Nagarythian recognized that Waaagh and Peace was important enough to attend personally. In the nine years since the lecture it is extremely likely that a Druchii spy has come across it and sent it to their handlers. If it hasn't happened yet, it probably will happen in the next few decades. But the Druchii are very fracticious. It's likely that only a few factions have it, if any do. So there is potential of getting a lot of magical lore out them for something they probably will be getting anyways. I'm sure the Druchii are also aware of that to a degree but it's still an option to keep in mind.
Edit: Come to think of it, I'm not sure if Mathilde would know the degree to which Ulthuan is infiltrated by Naggaroth.
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Eisenhelm
gran dutch of douchery
- Location
- Colombia
something that greatly worries me is that we have no idea about eike's opinion on the concept of BÔÒK. if mathilde were to die next update we can be fairly certain most of our pending bussines will be taken care of, she will just hand the snake box, the book on vitae and the orbs to the greys so they can sort it out; someone wil have to step up in order to continue the waystone project, it's too importantt to be left to rot; the EIC is in good hands and other similar things can be taken care of. But there is a very real posibility that the library will just be left as a sizable collection of books, not the learning superweapon we invisioned.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm sure that even if Mathilde dropped dead from the sheer joy of getting so many books at once, Belegar would likely get someone competent to continue KAU's expansion up to a certain point.
neutronium95
Mad Rocketeer
- Location
- The test site
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[x] [ITHILMAR] Books, primarily restricted books on magic with everything else secondary.
[x] [ITHILMAR] Books
[x] [ITHILMAR] A copy of the Library of Mournings, including most restricted texts.
[x] [ITHILMAR] Books
[x] [ITHILMAR] A copy of the Library of Mournings, including most restricted texts.
Adding the book vote since the shopping budget is losing and trade stuff is boring.
[x] [ITHILMAR] Precious Stones
[x] [ITHILMAR] A copy of the Library of Mournings, including most restricted texts.
[x] [ITHILMAR] Precious Stones
[x] [ITHILMAR] A copy of the Library of Mournings, including most restricted texts.