Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
*Gestures at Panoramia's entire Masterwork*
It's not like they ignore non-military facets of their magic.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
-
- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
It's not like they ignore non-military facets of their magic.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I. Um. Are you asking why the magical elf texts stretching back to the dawn of known history would have interesting lore?
- Location
- Australia
Dawn of unknown history too, given the Old Ones.
Just saying, but a single piece of elven enchantment just resulted in two of the Colleges pouring a ton of effort into gleaming whatever insights they could out of it, which resulted in two separate papers from the Lights and the Jades. That's significant, even if that particular piece of enchantment was Grey Lord work.
There is no way to know if this will eventually result in something along the lines of the Golds looking into skaventech, but elf magic theory is definitely something that has considerable in-universe value and it is fairly unlikely that even a ton of gold will allow Mathilde to access equivalent texts in Lothern.
There is always an opportunity cost with these things and personally I think that I prefer the Trade Goods by an inch, but let's not pretend that getting the right to xerox most of the Library of Mournings isn't a big deal.
Mathilde's military spell creation contributions are in making a time-delay for other spells, a map and a fix-the-terrain spell, things that seem mundane and less useful than weaponizing a screaming crack in reality to suck in your enemies. When in fact they helped change the leadership of a major polity, reconquer a Karak, and pull another out of literal Hell.
Let alone the Waystones themselves, which do the opposite of shooting lightning.
So, yes.
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm honestly also frustrated that BOOK keeps popping up and swallowing other interesting or profitable things we're doing. Sure, knowledge good, preservation good (nevermind that the Library of Mournings already preserved all that, and that elven magical paradigm takes a ton of time to learn and we won't get actual spellbooks, and that their restricted information is likely to turn into our restricted information, they have some useful stuff there probably so whatever), but at this point it's eating away at the normal progression of plot and rewards we geet for things unrelated to books, and this frustrates me to no end.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I agree, but it's worth remembering that Panoramia's superiors (including Paranoth) seemed way more interested in the applications of cleaning greenskin-spore-infested land than in the actual fully-self-sustaining biosphere she made on top of said cleansed land.
Cleaning land of greenskin spores and turning wasteland into regular land is of direct military relevance even though the result of that, feeding lots of people, is an overall improvement to everyday life. Hell, even 'being able to feed lots of people' is militarily relevant, given that armies march on their stomachs and not needing to worry about food would make almost every general happy.
The existence of the Orders of Magic was bought due to the contributions of wizards in war, and their right to exist has been revoked before, so there is an incentive to continue contributing to war and showing wizards to be existentially helpful to the Empire, even if a lot of wizards would rather focus more on more civilian uses to their research.
- Location
- Earth
Honestly, I'm not too concerned with the result of the Ithilmar vote. Whatever we get, I'm sure it'll be of great utility in one way or another—all the options have strong positives.
The real question I have for the thread right now is this:
Morbflex now, or later?
The real question I have for the thread right now is this:
Morbflex now, or later?
- Location
- Australia
I said the Colleges are a military institution and will focus on military applications of magic over civilian applications. I did not say that the Colleges only care about direct damage spells.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Actually?
I think they do the xeroxing for us in this case. No Library AP required.
Last edited:
Probably later, although I find the idea of doing it now interesting as that political capital could be leveraged to influence in which Order Mandred ends.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah, Boney said yesterday that it'd be a straight ithilmar-for-books trade, not just the right to copy books.
Anyway, for my preferences re: socials, in rough order of preference.
[ ] Dooming and Quickening
There will be rites and celebrations for Prince Mandred entering adulthood. Be present for them, and perform others that are pleasing to his true patron.
[ ] Witch Hunter
There's apparently some sort of Witch Hunter snooping around Gretel's lands. She'd absolutely be capable of dealing with it, but you'd be able to do so faster and would have more fun doing it.
[ ] Entrance Examination
Dragomas is forming a panel of eight Wizards from the eight Orders to determine the most suitable fit for a certain child of nobility. Be the Grey Order's representative on that panel.
[ ] Sarvoi
Try to figure out if the Elves use the same Apparition-based spells that the Colleges do, and find out what the Elven perspective on that sort of thing is.
[ ] The Festival Lord
The Eonir are holding a festival of games dedicated to Asuryan, the winner of which will ascend to (or remain on) the ruling Triumvirate of Laurelorn. Mathilde isn't at all allowed to participate, but she could watch.
[ ] Druchii Diplomats
Check in on these unexpected visitors to Tor Lithanel.
[ ] Kalashiniviks
Investigate the fate of the Kalashiniviks, who were made a scapegoat for the death of the Tzar.
[ ] Reading on Nehekhara
You recently acquired a great many Dwarven books on Nehekhara, including ones written in the direct aftermath of the Great Ritual by Dwarves who had known the Nehekharans when they still lived. It's unlikely your official duties will ever require you to delve too deeply into the topic, so the only way to indulge your curiosity is to dedicate some of your leisure time to the task.
[ ] Initiate
For the first time, a child born in Karag Nar has shown a capability of using magic. It is the duty of a Wizard to ascertain their suitability to join one of the Orders of Magic.
[ ] Dooming and Quickening
There will be rites and celebrations for Prince Mandred entering adulthood. Be present for them, and perform others that are pleasing to his true patron.
[ ] Witch Hunter
There's apparently some sort of Witch Hunter snooping around Gretel's lands. She'd absolutely be capable of dealing with it, but you'd be able to do so faster and would have more fun doing it.
[ ] Entrance Examination
Dragomas is forming a panel of eight Wizards from the eight Orders to determine the most suitable fit for a certain child of nobility. Be the Grey Order's representative on that panel.
[ ] Sarvoi
Try to figure out if the Elves use the same Apparition-based spells that the Colleges do, and find out what the Elven perspective on that sort of thing is.
[ ] The Festival Lord
The Eonir are holding a festival of games dedicated to Asuryan, the winner of which will ascend to (or remain on) the ruling Triumvirate of Laurelorn. Mathilde isn't at all allowed to participate, but she could watch.
[ ] Druchii Diplomats
Check in on these unexpected visitors to Tor Lithanel.
[ ] Kalashiniviks
Investigate the fate of the Kalashiniviks, who were made a scapegoat for the death of the Tzar.
[ ] Reading on Nehekhara
You recently acquired a great many Dwarven books on Nehekhara, including ones written in the direct aftermath of the Great Ritual by Dwarves who had known the Nehekharans when they still lived. It's unlikely your official duties will ever require you to delve too deeply into the topic, so the only way to indulge your curiosity is to dedicate some of your leisure time to the task.
[ ] Initiate
For the first time, a child born in Karag Nar has shown a capability of using magic. It is the duty of a Wizard to ascertain their suitability to join one of the Orders of Magic.
- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'll still be voting for the Amber College as ever, but I acknowledge that this turn ain't gonna be it. No possible way.
As for Ithilmar, I did vote for it originally for the big tourist bucks. But a good way of thinking about it is whether—if we took the gems/coins now and went to Lothern—you would find it acceptable to spend that cash if one of the options the Eonir are offering now were up for sale on the market?
A set of ithilmar armour? Yeah, I could absolutely see us buying that with our gems. Big Book? Yep. Some miracle means of expanding the EIC across the northern parts of the Empire within the next year or two? I dont think I'd vote for it but a huge chunk would.
So despite going into this looking for cash, I'm quite happy with most of the proposed non-cash alternatives. Buying land is about the only non-starter that's come up. Getting a title from the Queen to match our ones from the other polities Mathilde's worked for is another thing we could ask for that I'd say no to. Mathilde has enough hats.
As for Ithilmar, I did vote for it originally for the big tourist bucks. But a good way of thinking about it is whether—if we took the gems/coins now and went to Lothern—you would find it acceptable to spend that cash if one of the options the Eonir are offering now were up for sale on the market?
A set of ithilmar armour? Yeah, I could absolutely see us buying that with our gems. Big Book? Yep. Some miracle means of expanding the EIC across the northern parts of the Empire within the next year or two? I dont think I'd vote for it but a huge chunk would.
So despite going into this looking for cash, I'm quite happy with most of the proposed non-cash alternatives. Buying land is about the only non-starter that's come up. Getting a title from the Queen to match our ones from the other polities Mathilde's worked for is another thing we could ask for that I'd say no to. Mathilde has enough hats.
Last edited:
Do we really have big boons incoming for the Waystone project?
I would think it reasonable for Laurelorn to feel like they already paid for the work, and elves being short on gratitude is a meme, right?
Additionally, we are frankly not doing as much for the Eonir as we did for K8P recovery or for Vlag's recovery, so any boon would be commensurately smaller.
Am I off base here?
- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
We're not doing as much for Laurelorn as we did to get the Transcendant Dwarf Boons, it's true. But then I don't think total library access is a transcendant boon-level request. We've got the option now just for bringing a box of scraps. If we come out of the Waystone Project with even a medium or large boon, that'd probably be enough to get it then (if perhaps not the straight book trade, then at least access). Of course, there's no guarantee of even getting that level of reward.
Last edited:
- Location
- Oklahoma
We already got paid for hosting the Waystone Project in Laurelorn- that was the initial access to the library in the first place, as well as their participation in the project at a deep level, which has been extremely valuable.
They don't owe us a boon anymore than we owe them one.
They don't owe us a boon anymore than we owe them one.
I think library access, including what they consider military secrets is indeed a transcendent level request.
There are significant portions of their decision making body that believe humans are not to be trusted, and most of their decision-making body does not want to go to war with the Empire. Handing over military secrets to a known representative of a foreign and recently not-friendly polity is a major major request. I might go so far as to say it is transcendent.
They can also feed into lakes and the like and just end up nowhere. But that was never the main point of the most.
Including tributaries, waystones have a range of ten miles. The majority of the Empire's land is not ten miles from a river. Take the map Parabola posted, paste it into an image editor, select a pen, set the diameter to 10 miles as per the scale at the bottom, now draw that around every river in the Empire. You will quickly see the problem. Some 20-40% of the Empire is on the rivers and I'm pretty sure it's closer to the lower end but I'm bad at estimating stuff from appearance.
I should have been more precise in my phrasing, but the point fundamentally does not change. The vast majority of land we will deploying waystones to is not near a river. Read what I said to Nerdasaurus Rex about drawing it out on the map. Now ask the question, where will the majority of the Empire's fallen waystones be? Will it be near rivers where the Empire can most easily deploy armies or away from rivers where it is more difficult?
You also miss the point of me bringing up Aethyric Impluvium. The ritual does not need a river, it needs a water spirit. Water spirits can move. They can also be spirits from not-rivers, like ponds or springs. So what are the implications of it being unsuited outside the southern provinces and Reikland, despite having far looser conditions than riverine waystones? The implication is that dual-waystones will lead to a very large waste expenditure of magical labor. Because the vast majority of waystones we will be building will not be near rivers.
While you are technically correct that we just brought a box of scraps, it would also be technically correct to say that yellowcake uranium is just some rocks, or that the dead sea scrolls are just some scraps of parchment. I think you're failing to recognize we pulled prompt meeting with the Queen and a new Grey Lord out of the liminal realm for this. They seem to think this is at least worth Money = Yes.
I just had a thought, people have been saying that the elves don't relize just how valuable being allowed to copy their books. I wonder if part of the reason they haven't thought much about it is because of how much human libraries get destroyed l, especially over an elven lifespan.
No, not really. They were a solution for the problem but they solved that problem when they made a deal with middenhelm. If they had the new tributaries before then they might not have had to attack those villages.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Only perhaps in that a transcendent boon has no limits. Or at least, didn't have any for Belegar.
Still giving away military secrets when said secrets are part of why they're still alive at all, though.
Boney's explanation for them not seeing other libraries as competition was that they've had a dozen generations of the library of mournings being the only one. I take this to mean that they have also not yet thought of the reasons for competition/rivalry between them being a thing, some of which involves how they provide geopolitical soft power.
Relevant to both replies - I generally maintain that this is the lowest price we're ever going to get those books for, and that the price of getting mass copying rights for non-restricted books is likely to go up in the near-ish future.
Last edited: