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I know the money is prep for Elfication, but aren't some of these trades otherwise impossible? I don't think Mathilde would be able to buy a bilbo shirt or magical theory, that's like thinking you could really get a jet if you collected enough bottle caps.

Isn't this like bookmining or keeping the Libre Mortis, acquiring otherwise impossible to acquire knowledge? Not just numbers-go-up, but the things not taught in the crash course to make magical warriors. Which the Colleges are just simply not geared towards developing, some fresh crisis always being right there.
Not really. The library of Laurelorn isn't going anywhere, we will have opportunities to get wider access to it in the future and may well have stronger boons that could be used to get at the Grey Lord's books eventually coming.
 
A lot of it stems from the fact that we keep spending gold from our own pocket when we already got infinite gold from the initial boon. It is practically why we are broke and needed to do ithilmar action in the first place and here we are about to repeat that.

Only reason that I don't consider this a trap option is that there is military books on offer but lets face the fact that thread has a problem and I wish that problem was blackjack then there would be a chance for Mathilde to win gold for once.

I several times in the past argued against spending gold for books with the argument that we would need it in case we got repeat of Uzkulak market at Lothern but was assured that it would not be a problem but here are people talking about getting in to debt for even more books, the thing is I don't want to do that.

So you know it is like that.

I'm also a member of the 'We Probably Have Enough Books' club. At this point I grit my teeth any time the meme pops up.

And for me, the frustration stems less from how many actions we have spent on books and more from the fact that it feels like any time we get a reward for completing a quest or story arc, people jump out of the woodwork to insist that we find some way to synthesize it into books we can toss into the Book Nexus, and we (myself included) have to spend time shouting (posting?) down that option so a meaningful boon we can use to change the world of the quest in a vastly more interesting way doesn't get blown on Dewey Decimal Number Go Up.

It's also vast understatement to say we don't choose it too often when the fucking Karak Eight Peaks Transcendental Boon (which we got for, among other things, engineering the death of an entire Waaagh and otherwise basically reversing the karmic momentum of the dwarven race) got used on building a library which we occasionally Make Number Go Up in.

I have to CBT myself away from reminding myself of that too often because I frankly get too upset - like, do you understand that we could have asked Belegar something on the level of 'helping secure a lasting human principality in the Borderlands'? It wouldn't have done it by itself and probably prompted a campaign to fully actualize, but still. It could have been used as a solid chunk towards literally redrawing the map.

But no. BOOK, amirite guys? Yuk yuk yuk.
 
Not really. The library of Laurelorn isn't going anywhere, we will have opportunities to get wider access to it in the future and may well have stronger boons that could be used to get at the Grey Lord's books eventually coming.
Like what opportunities? The waystone project finishing, are we sure we get a boon for that. I would imagine the reward for success is having waystones. And we would almost certainly need to negotiate with the gray lords for there books, and I don't know what we could give them. We would need somthing of direct military use to get another chance at the magic books. Like I don't know if I want this over gems for ulthuan, but this is definitely an opportunity.
 
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I have to CBT myself away from reminding myself of that too often because I frankly get too upset - like, do you understand that we could have asked Belegar something on the level of 'helping secure a lasting human principality in the Borderlands'? It wouldn't have done it by itself and probably prompted a campaign to fully actualize, but still. It could have been used as a solid chunk towards literally redrawing the map.
I don't think I'd have wanted to ask him that- I don't really want him throwing away his own forces on that.

Barak Varr is at least actually nearby the inhabitable parts, the only thing near Karak Eight Peaks is full-on Badlands. Gretel's Princessipality is probably the best anyone could manage any time soon.
 
Not really. The library of Laurelorn isn't going anywhere, we will have opportunities to get wider access to it in the future and may well have stronger boons that could be used to get at the Grey Lord's books eventually coming.

Like which ones? Because unless you mean to use our reward from the whole Waystone Project on it, assuming we have one, I don't see it. I'd like something specific cause everytime I have seen this mentioned it's always been "we can get in the future" but never concreting even 1 way to do so.

Also this argument is really weird cause, you know, I could say the same for the EIC and Lothern. Lothern isn't going anywhere so we can just go buy things there whenever we have money and want to spend the AP...


Also the EIC and Laurelorn aren't going anywhere so we can just wait for better opportunities to do this. In fact we can even establish a trade route with them. Also here we have already even started to do things like the Fog Path which was supposed to bind the Eonir and the Empire through commerce.

Both of them look far more likely and concrete than "just wait for another military resource to exchange with the Eonir for their magic books"
 
Like what opportunities? The waystone project finishing, are we sure we get a boon for that. I would imagine the reward for success is having waystones. And we would almost certainly need to negotiate with the gray lords for there books, and I don't know what we could give them. We would need somthing of direct military use to get another chance at the magic books. Like I don't know if I want this over gems for ulthuan, but this is definitely an opportunity.
The only way we stop being a part of the Eonir's community at this point is if we choose to walk away. The waystone project could last another dozen turns and the thread jumps at any chance to earn status or knowledge through benefitting an ally.

There will be other opportunities. There could be better opportunities and there could be better ways to spend this bounty than on books that don't even cover everything we want.

If you want the secrets of Grey Lords then we need to be more enmeshed with the magic culture of Laurelorn and somehow get one of them into a personal project with us.

If all you want is book numbers go up then go wild. If you want anything else than just getting books might not be the best option.
 
I don't think I'd have wanted to ask him that- I don't really want him throwing away his own forces on that.

Barak Varr is at least actually nearby the inhabitable parts, the only thing near Karak Eight Peaks is full-on Badlands. Gretel's Princessipality is probably the best anyone could manage any time soon.

'Help establish' could also mean infrastructural. Gretel's Princessipality could be decked in dwarven walls, fortifications and artillery right now.

But it was a random example towards the point of, I would like to actually see anyone argue that the library wasn't blowing a once-in-a-lifetime Boon on an absolute meme that has only taken up questing space as the wheel is periodically and irritatingly yanked into the non sequitur of 'by the way, does this [WORLD LEADER/MAJOR POWER/RANDOM PFENNING-DREADFUL STAND] have any books we can copy and send to Kvinn-Wyr?'.

At this point, I honestly would have preferred we have had Belegar just fire the Old World's biggest firework into the air, once, as our Boon, because at least then it wouldn't still be taking up this much bandwidth.
 
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Like which ones? Because unless you mean to use our reward from the whole Waystone Project on it, assuming we have one, I don't see it. I'd like something specific cause everytime I have seen this mentioned it's always been "we can get in the future" but never concreting even 1 way to do so.

Also this argument is really weird cause, you know, I could say the same for the EIC and Lothern. Lothern isn't going anywhere so we can just go buy things there whenever we have money and want to spend the AP...


Also the EIC and Laurelorn aren't going anywhere so we can just wait for better opportunities to do this. In fact we can even establish a trade route with them. Also here we have already even started to do things like the Fog Path which was supposed to bind the Eonir and the Empire through commerce.

Both of them look far more likely and concrete than "just wait for another military resource to exchange with the Eonir for their magic books"
I feel the same way about the EIC. There's no point in investing in the EIC for the sake of investing in the EIC. It's a trade company that constantly benefits from us passively and we've already set them up trade to Lothern.

At the end of the day why do we want Lothern's magic books? What specific insight are we looking for? There's no driving question like there was for the Elementalists, no real expectation that the elven paradigm translates to something we can use, no spells that we know exist but don't have access to. What do ymwe get outside of a +5 to some dice rolls?
 
The only way we stop being a part of the Eonir's community at this point is if we choose to walk away. The waystone project could last another dozen turns and the thread jumps at any chance to earn status or knowledge through benefitting an ally.

There will be other opportunities. There could be better opportunities and there could be better ways to spend this bounty than on books that don't even cover everything we want.

If you want the secrets of Grey Lords then we need to be more enmeshed with the magic culture of Laurelorn and somehow get one of them into a personal project with us.

If all you want is book numbers go up then go wild. If you want anything else than just getting books might not be the best option.
That's a massive number of assumptions, we would need to trade something of equivalent value to them to get there knowledge, what do we have that could compare to an arcmages personal insight? You will note that even this barter doesn't get us those books. It's probably only a +3 or 4 to magic, but that's still worthwhile. And how did elemetlists do their magic was at most a curiosity. Like it was neat that we learned it, but it is even lest reagent than these books.
 
We have?

Or do you mean Laurelorn?
I did mean Laurelorn.

That's a massive number of assumptions, we would need to trade something of equivalent value to them to get there knowledge, what do we have that could compare to an arcmages personal insight? You will note that even this barter doesn't get us those books. It's probably only a +3 or 4 to magic, but that's still worthwhile. And how did elemetlists do their magic was at most a curiosity. Like it was neat that we learned it, but it is even lest reagent than these books.
I don't care about the numbers. If the books don't have a narrative purpose then I don't care and value the answer of 'how do elementalists even exist' other them a hundred times over.
 
The Library is not at all about 'numbers go up' or the BOOK meme for me.

Its about creating a lasting repository of knowledge that anyone can use. The larger that repository, the better. The fact that it also makes some numbers go up is incidental.
 
'Help establish' could also mean infrastructural. Gretel's Princessipality could be decked in dwarven walls, fortifications and artillery right now.

But it was a random example towards the point of, I would like to actually see anyone argue that the library wasn't blowing a once-in-a-lifetime Boon on an absolute meme that has only taken up questing space as the wheel is periodically and irritatingly yanked into the non sequitur of 'by the way, does this [WORLD LEADER/MAJOR POWER/RANDOM PFENNING-DREADFUL STAND] have any books we can copy and send to Kvinn-Wyr?'.

At this point, I honestly would have preferred we have had Belegar just fire the Old World's biggest firework into the air, once, as our Boon, because at least then it wouldn't still be taking up this much bandwidth.

Respectfully, your ire is misdirected.

The Library exists at least in part because of that scene when we saw the archive of Karaz-A-Karak preserving the history of the Karaz Ankor stretching back thousands of years, and one of the arguments made then was that it would be really cool to make part of our legacy something that would preserve knowledge and make it available in one of the safest places we could (compared to all of the other human libraries that were named as being destroyed over the years).

What you are irritated by is the result of us choosing to become Head Librarian, and thus dealing with the minutia of personally running all of that.

If you want to see less B O O K in the quest then you need the thread to vote to step back from the Head Librarian position.

Until then, we'll continue to see more Libary things because that's what the thread voted for.
 
I feel the same way about the EIC. There's no point in investing in the EIC for the sake of investing in the EIC. It's a trade company that constantly benefits from us passively and we've already set them up trade to Lothern.

At the end of the day why do we want Lothern's magic books? What specific insight are we looking for? There's no driving question like there was for the Elementalists, no real expectation that the elven paradigm translates to something we can use, no spells that we know exist but don't have access to. What do ymwe get outside of a +5 to some dice rolls?


It's not only the bonuses, although those also help since it'd be, more or less, the equivalent to +5 Learning for Magical Research.


But also that these books would also go to the Colleges and the mages of the Empire in a way because we share books with them. I feel narratively doubling or tripling or even more the library of books about magic the Colleges have will have an effect.

There's also cool Eonir magic lore that I think would be fun to see/read similar to the Elementalist (to point out, we still have no clue how Elves build their Elementals, because with what we know Bok shouldn't have survived and yet there he is after thousands of years). There's also probably magic books about Dhar which are extremely rare to get which could be interesting (reading an analytical study of it instead of mad ramblings I mean), and can be directly useful in killing Druuchi later on.


Finally I also find the magic lore knowledge far more reliable than playing the gacha loot in Lothern (I mean what did we get in the last gacha loot: 1 lizard arm that is effectively a Martial boost to 1 single character, lizard texts that only lead us to some papers without much effect, a Gyrhan Nut that only this very turn have started using and that has led to a very big tree so far (which we still don't know if it's a good idea to have or nor or if it will even have some kind of noticable effect in the time of the quest)).

If we compare that, with +5 bonus to magical research and vastly increasing the College Library and the very limited chances we have to do this I find getting the books, as genuinely, the best option.
 
And for me, the frustration stems less from how many actions we have spent on books and more from the fact that it feels like any time we get a reward for completing a quest or story arc, people jump out of the woodwork to insist that we find some way to synthesize it into books we can toss into the Book Nexus, and we (myself included) have to spend time shouting (posting?) down that option so a meaningful boon we can use to change the world of the quest in a vastly more interesting way doesn't get blown on Dewey Decimal Number Go Up.
We have, to date, spent no general actions and no rewards beyond the initial boon on the Library. If you consider debating in thread to be in and of itself an unpleasant experience, then - and I say this without mockery - questing may not be the hobby for you. Maybe go browse the Creative Writing section.

I don't care about the numbers. If the books don't have a narrative purpose then I don't care and value the answer of 'how do elementalists even exist' other them a hundred times over.
I've said it before, but if you don't think the entire magical corpus of a polity - including books written by Caledor Dragontamer - will have interesting lore, I suspect you haven't really thought about it at all.
 
Not really. The library of Laurelorn isn't going anywhere, we will have opportunities to get wider access to it in the future and may well have stronger boons that could be used to get at the Grey Lord's books eventually coming.
See my earlier post on the Eonir currently undervaluing their library, and how the way we've used our existing access to start competing with them economically may change that soon. We are not assured another opportunity to get access to their restricted books.

As for narrative value - this being eleven magic theory, that's going to be magic from far outside the context of just magic as a weapon. Nevermind Laurelorn's info on the subject, we and the entire college system doesn't really have much lore on magic outside of a military context what-so-ever, so I'd expect that to open a bunch of doors.

Like, to be frank this may be a case of the quantity of books being so staggeringly large that it just feels like nothing - it's difficult to grasp in concrete terms the specific results and benefits of getting, say, a copy of the British Library.

There is no part of the impact to such a thing that could be characterized as "small" or "negligible".
We have, to date, spent no general actions and no rewards beyond the initial boon on the Library.
Bookmining and the metalsmithing guild boon on nuln, actually.
 
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Technically speaking, wasn't it 'books even older than Caledor Dragontamer'?
Ah shoot, you might be right. That's still a prime Lore vein to mine!

Bookmining and the metalsmithing guild boon on nuln, actually.
I wasn't counting Bookmining, as that was its own little adventure I assumed someone mad about the library getting screentime wouldn't care about. But fair enough.

The metalsmithing guild boon was at least as much about repairing the vital cannon foundries of Nuln as it was about getting Nuln's books for it, though.
 
Pretty sure bookmining was a Library action, not a general action?
Yeah, Library action.

[*] Plan: Ordnance Survey
-[*] Waystone: Tributaries (Belthani) (Tochter, Cadaeth, Aksel, Niedzwenka, Zlata)
-[*] Waystone: Mapping (Empire, Border Princes) (Egrimm, Johann, Max, Aksel)
-[*] Waystone: Leylines (Sarvoi, Hatalath, Zlata, Elrisse, Thorek)
-[*] Receive training: On the Education of Apprentices (100gc)
-[*] Receive training: Powerstone creation methods (100gc)
-[*] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire.
-[*] KAU: The many legends about the amount of books contained within and under Castle Drakenhof still haunt you. Organize an expedition to mine the ruins for books.
--[*] The Gambler: KAU: Drakenhof
-[*] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (2/2)
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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy - Users' Choice!

After two years of preparations, the Waystone Project has finally, actually begun. You refuse to let the enormity of the task ahead of you get to you, and you've decided to start chipping away at the problem from three directions. First, a basic fact-finding survey of the network of nexuses in...
 
The metalsmithing guild boon was at least as much about repairing the vital cannon foundries of Nuln as it was about getting Nuln's books for it, though.
Yes, but we could have chosen a different reward. We spent the boon from nuln which we got via a boon from dawi on books. It definitely counts, and I'd be shocked if it wasn't on the minds of the people who ask for less book, considering we're voting on another reward shortly.
 
I've said it before, but if you don't think the entire magical corpus of a polity - including books written by Caledor Dragontamer - will have interesting lore, I suspect you haven't really thought about it at all.
If you've said it before than you must know - what lore? What questions do we have that they can answer? Or are you assuming it will answer some future question we may have?
 
If you've said it before than you must know - what lore? What questions do we have that they can answer? Or are you assuming it will answer some future question we may have?
I don't think anyone has to explain why a polity's version of the British Library will have answers to some of their questions, or interesting non-fiction in general. Rather, I think it would take quite a bit of explaining to back a claim that it wouldn't.

As for listing them, it'd likewise probably be more efficient to list what questions we have that such a thing wouldn't provide some insight on. This is a super-library we're buying a copy of, the culture's works aren't spread out among any others - rather than ask what questions the library might be able to answer, ask what questions the Eonir themselves might be capable of answering, because the answers will be quite similar!

Somebody else on this page already listed a few such as how elf elementals like Bok work besides, so.
 
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As for narrative value - this being eleven magic theory, that's going to be magic from far outside the context of just magic as a weapon. Nevermind Laurelorn's info on the subject, we and the entire college system doesn't really have much lore on magic outside of a military context what-so-ever, so I'd expect that to open a bunch of doors.
Does this matter? The Colleges are a military institution and will remain so. The Imperial Engineers School could do more civilian engineering, but focus their efforts on war anyway. The Colleges will do the same, entering no newly opened doors.
 
Does this matter? The Colleges are a military institution and will remain so. The Imperial Engineers School could do more civilian engineering, but focus their efforts on war anyway. The Colleges will do the same, entering no newly opened doors.
And? Monofocus like that isn't actually good for military research, they're left with military-relevant lore alone not because Telcis designed it that way, but because his work was incomplete. A broader foundation permits sturdier buildings, and military institution or no the colleges will be very interested in getting an entirely new field of wind-based magical lore to study.
 
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