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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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picklepikkl said:
finally investigate an Arcane Mark
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Arcane Marks! I'm convinced.
DragonParadox said:
What do you guys think?
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A lack of Arcane Marks, I'm unconvinced.

LawsOfRobotics said:
[ ] Plan Pondering Orbs and Nuts
-[ ] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo
-[ ] Waystone: Build a Waystone (ALL) (The Gambler)
-[ ] Waystone: Other Networks (Karaz Ankor) (Thorek)
-[ ] Study an artefact: Ghyran Nut with Panoramia
-[ ] Attempt to gain control of one of your Arcane Marks (Unnatural Shadow)
-[ ] SERENITY: Aethyric Vitae Part 1
-[ ] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit
-[ ] KAU: Hire educators to teach a language or group of languages to your scribes (Old World Languages)
-[ ] COIN: The Gambler
-[ ] Eike Actions: Ghyran Nut study, Karaz Ankor network, KAU action
-[ ] Eike Study: Infiltration and Tradecraft with the Hochlander


and here is a similar plan with helping build the bridge instead. I also modified the Eike actions and study accordingly.
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Seems solid. The WEBMAT actions aren't high priority so it makes sense to do some shifting to action you prefer. It's a plan I'd vote for.

Questions:
  1. Any particular reason you went for Unnatural Shadow over Mantle of Mists? (Mists has the fog warrior going for it and gets rid of the obvious smoke weakness)
  2. Why are you teaching the scribes (Old World Languages)? I'd kind of expect that the scribes we have access to would be pretty decent at those already. At the moment I think our problem is more access if you're thinking about Tilea, Brettonia, Estalia or even Karaz. I'd aim for access first and then teach if it turns out we lack enough scribes.
 
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WorldSlayer said:
Why are you teaching the scribes (Old World Languages)? I'd kind of expect that the scribes we have access to would be pretty decent at those already at the moment I think our problem is more access if you're thinking about Tilea, Brettonia, Estalia or even Karaz. I'd aim for access first and then teach if it turns out we lack enough scribes.
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The only languages our scribes read and write are Reikspiel and Tilean.
Boney said:
[ ] [SCRIBE] Locals
Will demonstrate the value of literacy to the local population, and will be reasonably loyal and self-sufficient. Reikspiel, Tilean.
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So Khazalid, Bretonnian, Kislevarin, and Estalian represent an expansion in capabilities. Of those four, Mathilde reads two of them at the moment and the thread seems to want to learn Kislevarin relatively soon, so it's pretty useful.
 
Parabola said:
It very much is not once-in-a-lifetime at all, it's a pretty open city and in a few years when she becomes an adult she'd be perfectly capable of coming herself if she's so interested.
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With what money? Taking a trip over there in any comfort and spending time in an elf city costs a bunch of cash, and she's a grey wizard which means she'll be broke. The only way she'd be able to go there is as a Magister since that's when she'll be skilled enough at Ulgu to hide all the way to and from Ulthuan and to stay there without any money.
 
Parabola said:
It very much is not once-in-a-lifetime at all, it's a pretty open city and in a few years when she becomes an adult she'd be perfectly capable of coming herself if she's so interested.
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It's not literally impossible to go, but it's not literally impossible to go to Cathay either - we have an open peace treaty with them, after all - and yet examining the odds of Mathilde being able to just wander off towards Cathay at any point during this quest rather puts the kibosh on the idea that Eike will be able to do whatever she wants "as an adult". Once she's an adult, both as a journeyman and later as a magister, she's going to be tied down with her own responsibilities - more than likely, she's going to be tied to the EIC itself, and that's going to sharply limit her ability to travel halfway across the world on a lark.
 
Redshirt Army said:
When the hell else is Eike going to get a chance to visit Lothern?
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Any time after she starts her Journeying? If she thinks it's worth going and hanging out in Lothern for a few months, there'd be nothing stopping her from doing so.

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Redshirt Army said:
It's not literally impossible to go, but it's not literally impossible to go to Cathay either - we have an open peace treaty with them, after all - and yet examining the odds of Mathilde being able to just wander off towards Cathay at any point during this quest rather puts the kibosh on the idea that Eike will be able to do whatever she wants "as an adult". Once she's an adult, both as a journeyman and later as a magister, she's going to be tied down with her own responsibilities - more than likely, she's going to be tied to the EIC itself, and that's going to sharply limit her ability to travel halfway across the world on a lark.
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Mathilde's Journeying immediately tying her down to Stirland was extremely unusual - on a normal Journeying Eike will have nothing tying her down and can go and do pretty much whatever. That's sort of the point of a Journeying.
 
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Another reason to take her on the trip is I want to read about Eike going to Lothern within the next few real life years instead of within the next few decades.
 
I've not been active in this forum for months due to personal issues but I'll post this now so it's at least somewhere and I don't forget it when I go back to lurking.

Boney said:
[ ] Set up a no-questions-asked bounty system for books within the Cult of Ranald
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Not sure if it's been suggested already, but we should set a bounty for Skaven books. It's a a way to access a source of knowledge we currently can't interact with very much and nearly all downsides of the option don't apply if it's Skaven-exclusive. Not a priority, but I think it would be great to do.
 
Mopman43 said:
Because Mathilde is utterly penniless?

She is and will remain the heir to what is, at minimum, the largest trading company in Stirland. She will not want for coin.
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Mathilde is a Lady Magister with a track record of decades of miracles. The Bursar will not give Eike the same amount of slack. If she collects and spends coin like Mathilde does, she dies. She must be broke.

EDIT: She's legally allowed to be as decadent as any noble once she hits Magister thanks to article 11 saying all wizards and that trumping college-specific rules, but not until then.
 
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BrainInAJar said:
I've not been active in this forum for months due to personal issues but I'll post this now so it's at least somewhere and I don't forget it when I go back to lurking.


Not sure if it's been suggested already, but we should set a bounty for Skaven books. It's a a way to access a source of knowledge we currently can't interact with very much and nearly all downsides of the option don't apply if it's Skaven-exclusive. Not a priority, but I think it would be great to do.
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I think were were told that the thieves and ne'er-do-wells of the Empire wouldn't have access to Skaven books. Stealing them is less burglary and more looting enemy strongholds.

It'd be a good idea otherwise, though.
 
Very nearly at exactly fifteen thousand pages on this quest, now. Just thought I'd draw attention to it, see if we can reach that before New Year's Day has passed.
 
Andres said:
EDIT: She's legally allowed to be as decadent as any noble once she hits Magister thanks to article 11 saying all wizards and that trumping college-specific rules, but not until then.
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By definition, when the Articles say 'Magister', they must apply to every wizard in the Colleges rather than specifically just the ones labeled 'Magister'.

Because otherwise that would mean that Journeymen could ignore all the other articles, which do obviously apply to them.
 
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Andres said:
With what money? Taking a trip over there in any comfort and spending time in an elf city costs a bunch of cash, and she's a grey wizard which means she'll be broke. The only way she'd be able to go there is as a Magister since that's when she'll be skilled enough at Ulgu to hide all the way to and from Ulthuan and to stay there without any money.
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Redshirt Army said:
It's not literally impossible to go, but it's not literally impossible to go to Cathay either - we have an open peace treaty with them, after all - and yet examining the odds of Mathilde being able to just wander off towards Cathay at any point during this quest rather puts the kibosh on the idea that Eike will be able to do whatever she wants "as an adult". Once she's an adult, both as a journeyman and later as a magister, she's going to be tied down with her own responsibilities - more than likely, she's going to be tied to the EIC itself, and that's going to sharply limit her ability to travel halfway across the world on a lark.
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...I'm not sure where any of these arguments are coming from.

Grey Wizards can in fact have money and use it - we have a good amount ourselves. There's loads of loopholes in the Vow of Poverty, which is really more of a Suggestion of Poverty. Eike can in fact have a lot of money and use it as long as she did not obtain it via means that harm the Empire or its people. The Grey Order literally isn't going to stop anyone from traveling to Ulthuan unless they're trying to avoid justice or something.

That I know of, the quest also doesn't concern itself with questions like 'how much money does it take to actually live here comfortably' - I assume it all gets abstracted away just as with travel times. The travel itself to Ulthuan isn't a gigantic and dangerous trek that I am aware of, either - it's just a regular continent that you can sail to via established routes - and it certainly isn't as hard to get to as fucking Cathay.

As for Eike's responsibilities as a Journeywoman or Magister, if you're going to argue that something that she could do with us in Lothern is evaluate potential trade opportunities or something, then she could use the exact same argument as heiress of the EIC to go there in the first place.

I really, really don't get this. I feel confused and disoriented and even a bit frustrated at these arguments.
 
@Boney, I have questions about Magisters in the articles. Firstly, do the articles only apply to wizards that hold the rank of Magister or also journeymen and apprentices? Secondly, how can they mention Magisters? I thought the term Magister was only invented later by nobles who wanted to curtail the power of burghers.
 
Andres said:
Mathilde is a Lady Magister with a track record of decades of miracles. The Bursar will not give Eike the same amount of slack. If she collects and spends coin like Mathilde does, she dies. She must be broke.

EDIT: She's legally allowed to be as decadent as any noble once she hits Magister thanks to article 11 saying all wizards and that trumping college-specific rules, but not until then.
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The vow of poverty is very explicitly not a vow of needing to exist in a state of poverty. Notably, the words 'of direct and practical use to their cause' are important. If traveling to Ulthuan as the EIC heiress is of direct and practical use to Eike's cause, then she's allowed to act as the EIC heiress and travel to Ulthuan with that money.
 
WorldSlayer said:
Seems solid. The WEBMAT actions aren't high priority so it makes sense to do some shifting to action you prefer. It's a plan I'd vote for.

Questions:
  1. Any particular reason you went for Unnatural Shadow over Mantle of Mists? (Mists has the fog warrior going for it and gets rid of the obvious smoke weakness)
  2. Why are you teaching the scribes (Old World Languages)? I'd kind of expect that the scribes we have access to would be pretty decent at those already. At the moment I think our problem is more access if you're thinking about Tilea, Brettonia, Estalia or even Karaz. I'd aim for access first and then teach if it turns out we lack enough scribes.
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I went with Unnatural Shadow for two reasons. First, it already acts independently from us so I want to see if we can get it to do useful things like it does with our Roiling Shadows mastery on Dread Aspect, not just get it to hold still. Second, it is explicitly called out as our most unnerving arcane mark, so being able to dial that up or down depending on the situation seems like it could be useful for a lot of situations.

Additionally I highly doubt Mantle of Mist is affected by Warrior of Fog. That trait is about metaphorical fog, not literal. Our Staff of Mistery helps with spells that use literal fog, but I don't think that is going to help with our Arcane Mark. While Mantle of Mist is a potential liability against gas attacks, we have the Candle of Cleansing Radiance and are not likely fighting Skaven (and especially Clan Skryre) soon, so it is not a high priority to address.

Picklepikkl already addressed why I want the scribes. We already have a lot of libraries in Nuln to copy, so getting more libraries to partner when we haven't copied the ones we already have just seems like rushing, especially if we can't even copy any Fire Spire books we might find in Karak Vlag without training our scribes.

I am curious what you opinion is on the Eike Study action. I am currently inclined to leave in on the Intrigue training because there aren't any Enchanting actions in the rest of Plan Pondering Orbs and Nuts, but I would make or vote for a variant that does Enchantment classes if there is notable demand for it.
 
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ReImagined said:
The vow of poverty is very explicitly not a vow of needing to exist in a state of poverty. Notably, the words 'of direct and practical use to their cause' are important. If traveling to Ulthuan as the EIC heiress is of direct and practical use to Eike's cause, then she's allowed to act as the EIC heiress and travel to Ulthuan with that money.
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If a trip to Ulthuan will be of use to her cause, it'd be because she's an EIC heiress. She's an EIC heiress right now, and if that alone isn't enough to make a trip of use to her cause, it won't be enough to make a trip of use to her cause later.

If she can go later, then she can go now for the same reasons.
If she can't go later, then now as an apprentice will be her only opportunity to visit Ulthuan.
 
WorldSlayer said:
Any particular reason you went for Unnatural Shadow over Mantle of Mists? (Mists has the fog warrior going for it and gets rid of the obvious smoke weakness)
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Because our masteries seems like they might be much cooler if we learn to control our shadow like an extra limb. We have a shadow dagger mastery. Now imagine if we can have our shadow hold and stab with our dagger.
 
Parabola said:
As for Eike's responsibilities as a Journeywoman or Magister, if you're going to argue that something that she could do with us in Lothern is evaluate potential trade opportunities or something, then she could use the exact same argument as heiress of the EIC to go there in the first place.
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That Catch-22 is in fact in my favor, not yours.

Like. The two arguments being presented for why Eike can't come are mutually exclusive.

Either going to Lothern is useful to the heiress of the EIC (in which case great, she should come), or going to Lothern is not useful to Eike (in which case great, she has an opportunity to travel there before she gets tied down to one project or another and can no longer justify doing things that aren't immediately useful).
 
Redshirt Army said:
That Catch-22 is in fact in my favor, not yours.

Like. The two arguments being presented for why Eike can't come are mutually exclusive.

Either going to Lothern is useful to the heiress of the EIC (in which case great, she should come), or going to Lothern is not useful to Eike (in which case great, she has an opportunity to travel there before she gets tied down to one project or another and can no longer justify doing things that aren't immediately useful).
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I disagree, but am going to concede this point and decline to continue this line of discussion because I feel it's the opposite of productive and I don't want to get frustrated or snippy at anyone.
 
Redshirt Army said:
That Catch-22 is in fact in my favor, not yours.

Like. The two arguments being presented for why Eike can't come are mutually exclusive.

Either going to Lothern is useful to the heiress of the EIC (in which case great, she should come), or going to Lothern is not useful to Eike (in which case great, she has an opportunity to travel there before she gets tied down to one project or another and can no longer justify doing things that aren't immediately useful).
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The arguments are mutually exclusive because they're explicitly covering both possibilities as to whether it'd be useful.

If it's useful to the EIC then she may decide to go there later, where your argument was she won't be able to later. If it's not useful, she shouldn't be going at all, now or later. Eike going to Lothern for a massive vacation isn't intrinsically good.
 
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