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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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French Cowboy said:
Did we get everything we want out of apparition binding? Because I feel like we could definitely bind a second batch of knights for a different spell.

Having more battle magic than melkoth's seems pretty valuable and binding like 5 or 10 knights for that seems like it would be effective, between our ability to teleport anywhere on the battlefield and also go invisible while our knights wreak havoc.

I get why we went for a defender style spell initially, but making a more offensive battle magic variant still seems like it could be in the cards.
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Before we go for another go at spellcreation I'd like to codify our current one.
 
DragonParadox said:
Way, way back when we were talking about making an alarm system for K8P before we took the Dum job @Boney told us that any kind of 'magic that does magic' enchantment is Tzeench bait even if we could manage it. Since I know this will be brought up, I think the reason Waystones do not count for that is that they are not producing physical effects, they are not doing spells with the magic that is passing through the network, they are just moving it along, like an arcane sewage system
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The other thing is that the Waystone network doesn't appear to be automated, and is instead actively managed by Caledor and possibly the other archmages in there with him.

It's like how the spells that animate undead aren't automated, and are instead under the control of (pieces of) soul, which is how they can dynamically respond to stimuli and be actually useful in combat.
 
I feel like the simpler solution to getting battle magic would be to just learn one that is already in the spellbook instead of inventing our own. Though I don't know if any other than Melkoths miasma would work with the staff, and the whispering darkness has a cool asthetic.
 
I mean, I'd be cool with learning Pit of Shades just to see what sort of insight it would give us on liminal realms given our existing knowledge about it. It'd be interesting if we could use it as a bridge to make a spell to open a (nonlethal) gate into a dreaming wood or other liminal realms we find.
 
Wiggy said:
I mean, I'd be cool with learning Pit of Shades just to see what sort of insight it would give us on liminal realms given our existing knowledge about it. It'd be interesting if we could use it as a bridge to make a spell to open a (nonlethal) gate into a dreaming wood or other liminal realms we find.
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The issue we have is that codified spells are black boxes. A wizard casting one doesn't have any understanding of how they work. They just say/think the magic words and the Winds respond to produce the effect without the wizard knowing how or why.

If we want to understand more about liminal realms in this fashion then I think we'd need to get a spell that Mathilde could develop based on Warrior of Fog approved and do that.
 
Alratan said:
The issue we have is that codified spells are black boxes. A wizard casting one doesn't have any understanding of how they work. They just say/think the magic words and the Winds respond to produce the effect without the wizard knowing how or why.
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If that was the case I don't think the ability or lack thereof of someone to communicate their understanding of the winds would matter when codifying a spell.

Sure, it's boiled down to the most widespread possible form but there's not nothing in there to grasp.
 
French Cowboy said:
That's fair. Though is there anything other than the slam dunk we're saving college favors for?
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One plan for a Book Purchase round soon is to pick up Eonir books on Medicine/Surgery and then donate a copy to the Shallyans, in the hopes that they'll prove even a fraction as useful as Gaelen's work was.

Translating two sets of +5 from Eltharin to Reikspiel would cost 10CF, which we're currently 1CF short of after the Orb earmark and paying the Hochlander. 2CF short if we don't earn any Favour with the Orbs next turn and get something else instead—the Serenity action (our primary CF generation engine) will be tied up writing half the Vitae book and the Hochlander will need paying again.
 
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World Illusion said:
@Boney when we codify knightbringer, do we have to spend a separate action for each variation? I assume yes. Also, does codifying them get easier the more versions we make/times we do it?
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We only have the one variant of Knightbringer. Boney explicitly said in the votes that if we want the Red Rider to do something different we have to get a different one and train it differently, then make that a spell.

And there's no guarantee that it'll be as easy to make into a spell as the Bodyguard variant was, given the resonance it had with the concept of a wizard being attacked. Possibly it would take more than just one extra action. And yes, then, it would probably take a second codifying action.
 
World Illusion said:
@Boney when we codify knightbringer, do we have to spend a separate action for each variation? I assume yes. Also, does codifying them get easier the more versions we make/times we do it?
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I'm pretty sure that in addition to taking a separate codification action, we'd have to actually *create* the new spell first, which would involve capturing another Apparition. The whole point of codifying is to get the entire process written down from start to finish, and we don't actually have that last section of setting up the release mechanism for the other behaviours.

So at best we could go: "Here's how to capture, here's how to bind. You're on your own for the behavioural training." Which, given that the first two sections will have been already written out for Knightbringer itself...what would we be adding to earn more CF on further codifications?
 
i am aware we only have one version and have to capture another apparition to create another variation, i am asking if it gets easier as we gain experience doing it (apparition related trait? other orders seem to have specialists in this field, if we gain enough experience in it can we do more with them?), or if we could codify multiple variants if we have multiple captures and spells developed. if so, it would be better to codify them all into a apperition book, like the AV book, as the combination of many projects and experiments rather than just one

if we codify the various knightbringer (and other apparition based spells) together into a book, we use two AP for it, rather than the 2+ AP it would cost to codify them all one at a time in separate papers. so if we could do an apparition book, i believe it would be the best move.
 
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World Illusion said:
apparition related trait?
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Traits typically require great commitment, more so later in the career when your core skills have already been set. I really don't wanna put even half the AP it'd take to approach a chance of getting a trait into apparitions, they're neat but not that neat.

World Illusion said:
apparition book
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...that sounds fun. Traditionally spells are codified in scrolls, and idk if we can or would buck tradition, but if it's possible to write down everything we know about an apparition and all the spells that can be made from it into a single book, it'd be cool.

(Not that I actually want to put several AP into creating enough spells to make this relevant, but it's cool nonetheless).
 
The Big Book of Apparitions, with several spells for the usage thereof and a description of how to find, identify, and combat various ones does sound like a fun undertaking.
 
Say we did do the "Elf Medicine for Shallyans" action (which is still only a vague possibility rather than a certainty, given it comes with the pricetag of a whole KAU purchase and 2APs worth of CF). And say we end up with a Minor/Moderate Shallyan Boon, rather than a polite thank you (it is a donation rather than an exchange, after all). How would we want to spend such a thing?

Off the top of my head, theres:
  1. Rights to Shallyan libraries for KAU. Kinda a prosaic use for a rare boon, but "We gave you books, you give us books" is pretty symmetrical.
  2. A Shallyan miracle worker to try out Windherding with a non-Teclisian tradition. Nothing really stands out in the Wiki's list of noted Shallyan miracles as a "wow" combo with any of the other winds we have access to, but the point would more be the act of Windherding itself rather than whatever the product would be.
  3. The Cult of Shallya joins the Waystone Project. A Divine Magic perspective from a major Cult is definitely one aspect we're missing. It's possible there could be insights there on tributaries or leylines. Shallyan endorsement might also open some doors for getting rollout accepted, given their popularity among the laity. But then they're pretty non-political (which is part of why they remain so popular), so an endorsement isn't a given.
  4. Stockpiling it to pull a Heidi later on to get the clock turned back. I don't think one boon would be enough, Mathilde has other paths to longevity available to her, and old age is very unlikely to be the thing that does her in in the end. So I'm not hot on this one.
I guess my vote would be for Windherding cooperation? Unless we need something political from the Cult that I'm not thinking of.
 
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Alratan said:
The issue we have is that codified spells are black boxes. A wizard casting one doesn't have any understanding of how they work. They just say/think the magic words and the Winds respond to produce the effect without the wizard knowing how or why.
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No? I distinctly remember Melkoth explaining in detail the exact way MMM works and why one can't just willpower through it. Similarily, I remember Algarad explicitly telling us that Pit uses the liminal barrier. Neither sounds like people who don't know what is happenning or why.
 
You know, if elven anatomy knowledge was such a boon to human doctors I wonder if the Valayan priesthood would have any interesting medical knowledge? Maybe they would have shared it with the Empire already I suppose, but it would be interesting to find out.
 
Eltharion was mentioned having a dwarven artifact. I wonder if it would be possible to get him to trade that back to the dwarves in exchange for some of the Phoenix kings regalia.

I know both kragg and thorek would literally kill to take a look at that weapon.

Actually that's definitely something to keep an eye out for during the elfcation. It seems unlikely, but elves might be the best source of forgotten dwarf runecraft left to access.
 
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Gavin Prince said:
Say we did do the "Elf Medicine for Shallyans" action (which is still only a vague possibility rather than a certainty, given it comes with the pricetag of a whole KAU purchase and 2APs worth of CF). And say we end up with a Minor/Moderate Shallyan Boon, rather than a polite thank you (it is a donation rather than an exchange, after all). How would we want to spend such a thing?

Off the top of my head, theres:
  1. Rights to Shallyan libraries for KAU. Kinda a prosaic use for a rare boon, but "We gave you books, you give us books" is pretty symmetrical.
  2. A Shallyan miracle worker to try out Windherding with a non-Teclisian tradition. Nothing really stands out in the Wiki's list of noted Shallyan miracles as a "wow" combo with any of the other winds we have access to, but the point would more be the act of Windherding itself rather than whatever the product would be.
  3. The Cult of Shallya joins the Waystone Project. A Divine Magic perspective from a major Cult is definitely one aspect we're missing. It's possible there could be insights there on tributaries or leylines. Shallyan endorsement might also open some doors for getting rollout accepted, given their popularity among the laity. But then they're pretty non-political (which is part of why they remain so popular), so an endorsement isn't a given.
  4. Stockpiling it to pull a Heidi later on to get the clock turned back. I don't think one boon would be enough, Mathilde has other paths to longevity available to her, and old age is very unlikely to be the thing that does her in in the end. So I'm not hot on this one.
I guess my vote would be for Windherding cooperation? Unless we need something political from the Cult that I'm not thinking of.
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This is counting chickens before even getting eggs, but... I guess I'd be inclined for the first one because it's the most straightforward one.

At this point, I'd rather keep exploring Windherding with the current members of Web-Mat before getting any guest researchers - Egrimm is the only one we've been experimenting with, but nothing's stopping us from trying to research Ulgu-Chamon ideas with Johann or Max. As for the Project, at this point we really are in a "too many cooks" situation - at best we could get a Damsel in here, given that we already struggle a tiny bit with making everyone do something every turn.

...And if we ever wanted to take advantage of Shallyan miracles as with Heidi, it would probably be in a distant hypothetical future that Mathilde becomes far more Ulgu than she is flesh, and where the Seed of Regrowth is not as applicable - in such a faraway scenario, a Shallyan miraculous relic to for healing miiiight be preferable, though even then I wouldn't count on it.
 
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I'm definitely on Team Apparition binding. Battlemagic level effects, but most of the danger is front loaded in the catching stage, there's a wide range of possible effects that can be scaled upwards, and it just skirts the dubious legality line.

Also I have a huge love for the class fantasy of Pokémon Trainer Summoner.

Let's get a squad of knights, a murderfog, and maybe a few other things. Let's make it our thing, that weird branch of magic that only we have ventured down and mastered.
 
Parabola said:
We only have the one variant of Knightbringer. Boney explicitly said in the votes that if we want the Red Rider to do something different we have to get a different one and train it differently, then make that a spell.

And there's no guarantee that it'll be as easy to make into a spell as the Bodyguard variant was, given the resonance it had with the concept of a wizard being attacked. Possibly it would take more than just one extra action. And yes, then, it would probably take a second codifying action.
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One thing we could do is round up some more Riders in Red, but make it so they're Nazguls who hunt down wizards. Enemy wizards are cringe, see, so they deserve what they get.

Another idea's to make them wolf-riders to make them anti-monster. Mathilde's only tool for that is the Flask, and a squad of wolf-riding ringwraiths would be good to have for things other than monsters too.
 
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