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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Boney said:
1. There's a fine but important distinction between introducing and amplifying ambiguities, and in making someone certain of one very specific wrong thing. The 1st spell idea is on the wrong side of this distinction - you're talking about it as if there's a single 'misidentification' knob that you can crank up from "I don't know who that is" to "I am absolutely sure this is an enemy", but it doesn't work that way. You'd want Amber or Bright magic for making allies more likely to do violence to each other when uncertain.
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Just to verify my own understanding: It's possible to cast a spell that makes a spell a group of dudes really uncertain whether someone approaching is friend or foe. It's not possible to make them certain it's an enemy (though human nature probably does a lot of the heavy lifting, because they're bound to be twitchy when fighting. But that's neither Ulgu magic nor certain).
But to my understanding of Ulgu, the following would be possible: Switch the identification of two groups (friends A and enemy B), I.E, cast it on an cavalry unit, and now it thinks it ought to help poor B defeat the vile A, about which they'll be very embarrassed in the aftermath.
 
DocMatoi said:
prediction: greenskin idols have actually been doing waystone stuff and thorek refuses to believe it on dwarf principle
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I wouldn't be surprised if the Greenskins found something to do with Waystones.

I do want to take the Badlands mapping action at some point. We don't actually know what we'll find if we go looking, and just writing it off ahead of time leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

At bare minimum, it's a map of broken and/or isolated Waystones that can be safely scavenged without damaging the current Waystone network any further. There's half a continent's worth of Waystone caps down there, and the Foundation may also turn out to have a tricky component it'd be much easy to grab an existing example of from a non-functional Waystone.
 
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Dragonofelder said:
"Youz gits gotta realise dis is our world too, and if da spikey gits take over we won't be able ta krump 'em all." - Wurrzag, our newest project member.
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You know, in Total War Warhammer - which I know isn't guaranteed to be quest canon - there are a number of locations in the Badlands that the Savage Orcs hold to be sacred. I'm not sure what would make a place sacred to an Orc, but Waystone Nexus sites wouldn't be the worst guess.
 
You know what would be a great battle magic spell? One that just outputs a lot of fog. Specifically, fog that can be seen through by allies, but not by enemies. Apply, and FOW is turned on selectively in effect.
 
BurnNote said:
Just to verify my own understanding: It's possible to cast a spell that makes a spell a group of dudes really uncertain whether someone approaching is friend or foe. It's not possible to make them certain it's an enemy (though human nature probably does a lot of the heavy lifting, because they're bound to be twitchy when fighting. But that's neither Ulgu magic nor certain).
But to my understanding of Ulgu, the following would be possible: Switch the identification of two groups (friends A and enemy B), I.E, cast it on an cavalry unit, and now it thinks it ought to help poor B defeat the vile A, about which they'll be very embarrassed in the aftermath.
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Ulgu is very good at concealing information. Tweaking information even a little bit is much more difficult. Invisibility is easier than Illusion, Mindhole is easier than Cloak Activity. Concealing the identity of one group from another might be possible with Battle Magic, but making them believe they're an entirely different group would be Cataclysm if it's possible at all, though if anything it seems best suited to the Lore of Tzeentch.
 
Boney said:
Ulgu is very good at concealing information. Tweaking information even a little bit is much more difficult. Invisibility is easier than Illusion, Mindhole is easier than Cloak Activity. Concealing the identity of one group from another might be possible with Battle Magic, but making them believe they're an entirely different group would be Cataclysm if it's possible at all, though if anything it seems best suited to the Lore of Tzeentch.
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Huh, I thought switching two things would be easier, given that Algard did it for the tower. But the position of a thing and the identity are significantly different.
DragonParadox said:
I am pretty sure Orcs would be conceptually opposed to the Waystone Network if they understood what it was. After all it stops them from fighting really 'Ard Spiky Boyz. :V
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Orks are complex creatures. On the one hand, it's really neat to have something to fight over. Make the fight come to you! On the other hand, having fight everywhere is also really nice.
Any given Orks position is liable to switch often whenever new information presents itself, like what the boss tells them or what another Ork thinks (so they can think the opposite and have a fight about it*).

More seriously, Orks are capable of building and using infrastructure. And while they like fighting other things, there's always fight at home.

*Sometimes, both Orks switch simultaneously, so they end up with the same opinion afterwards. And then switch again. And again. And so on. This is called an Orkscillation**.
**I want everyone to know how extremely, unreasonably pleased I am with that pun. I will ride that high for the rest of the day.
Mystic Pentagram said:
On one hand you are right. But on the other hand if the world is destroyed then they can't fight anybody.
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Honestly, you might be underestimating them there. Not sure the end of the world would stop the Orks from fighting.
 
BurnNote said:
Huh, I thought switching two things would be easier, given that Algard did it for the tower.
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Algard the Magister Patriarch did it for a huge Ulgu tower (already full of magic, making reality more pliable), with three or four powerstones (explicitly needed them for that), on the highest roll possible. I think that's not average Grey Magic.
 
Somic said:
Algard the Magister Patriarch did it for a huge Ulgu tower (already full of magic, making reality more pliable), with three or four powerstones (explicitly needed them for that), on the highest roll possible. I think that's not average Grey Magic.
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I do keep wondering if we are any closer to understanding the tech jargon Algard and Kragg were throwing at each other back then.
 
pucflek said:
I do keep wondering if we are any closer to understanding the tech jargon Algard and Kragg were throwing at each other back then.
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Considering the recent difficulties in understanding Kragg, we might've begun to see the gulf.
Boney said:
and turns his full attention to his slate, lips moving as he mumbles through technical jargon it would take you a century of learning to even begin to grasp how beyond you it is.
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Somic said:
The jargon Kragg was throwing at Algard for the purpose of cooperation in building the wizard tower was surely different than the jargon Kragg was muttering to himself about lost secrets of Runesmithing?
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Yeah, there was something about 20 years to even begin to understand. Been a little bit since then.
 
BurnNote said:
Huh, I thought switching two things would be easier, given that Algard did it for the tower. But the position of a thing and the identity are significantly different.

Orks are complex creatures. On the one hand, it's really neat to have something to fight over. Make the fight come to you! On the other hand, having fight everywhere is also really nice.
Any given Orks position is liable to switch often whenever new information presents itself, like what the boss tells them or what another Ork thinks (so they can think the opposite and have a fight about it*).

More seriously, Orks are capable of building and using infrastructure. And while they like fighting other things, there's always fight at home.

*Sometimes, both Orks switch simultaneously, so they end up with the same opinion afterwards. And then switch again. And again. And so on. This is called an Orkscillation**.
**I want everyone to know how extremely, unreasonably pleased I am with that pun. I will ride that high for the rest of the day.

Honestly, you might be underestimating them there. Not sure the end of the world would stop the Orks from fighting.
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I think there are two things the analyses misses:
A) Orcs have no fear of death in the abstract so I do not think they would be able to conceptualize the world ending as a bad thing
and
B) Fighting non-orcs is more interesting and fulfilling than fighting other orcs, that kind of has to be true or no orc would ever join up with another orc and that clearly happens
 
Boney said:
You give your stunned acquiescence, and for weeks you watch as Algard and Kragg have loud but enthusiastic disagreements over the fundamental nature of magic,
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I've reread the update and saw nothing about how hard it was for Mathilde to understand what they're talking about. Was it sometime after in the discussion?
 
DragonParadox said:
B) Fighting non-orcs is more interesting and fulfilling than fighting other orcs, that kind of has to be true or no orc would ever join up with another orc and that clearly happens
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Nitpick that does not really contradict the actual point, just the phrasing of the argument here, but that assumes there is a binary state of orc and non orc, of which non orc is always more interesting to fight.

I think that is not the case, orcs want to fight strong opponents irrespective of their orciness, they do not have a strong preference for fighting non orcs, they just do not have a strong preference for fighting other orcs either.
 
DocMatoi said:
prediction: greenskin idols have actually been doing waystone stuff and thorek refuses to believe it on dwarf principle
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There was a Goblin Mage in Grom the Paunch's retinue who was able to topple over the Waystones in Yvresse and use their power to enchance his magic, making himself powerful enough to take out Eltharion's father, so I wouldn't put it past the Greenskins to be able to meddle with Waystones somewhere in their racial memory (Da Great Green as they call it, which Greenskin Shamans can channel).

I will note that there was nothing particularly constructive there. The Mage was destorying and disrupting waystones rather than taking them over. Not a good sign if the Greenskins were doing that to their own Waystones.
 
storryeater said:
Nitpick that does not really contradict the actual point, just the phrasing of the argument here, but that assumes there is a binary state of orc and non orc, of which non orc is always more interesting to fight.

I think that is not the case, orcs want to fight strong opponents irrespective of their orciness, they do not have a strong preference for fighting non orcs, they just do not have a strong preference for fighting other orcs either.
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Counterpoint: the Waaagh field. Orcs have an inbuilt "ASSEMBLE INTO AN ARMY" instinct with each other (occasionally fighting for leadership when it's unclear who's da biggest baddest orc in the Waaagh), but not with other species.
 
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