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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Well, not sure about Ulthuan, but knowing about the Albion-wards flow could let us maybe put more pressure on Hatalath to talk about Albion, at least.

Though mapping Bretonnia is kind of tricky, since there's an odd number of half-AP mapping options, and recruiting the Damsels could potentially let us skip Bretonnia the way recruiting a Hag and Ice Witch let us skip Kislev.
 
StormySky said:
Well, not sure about Ulthuan, but knowing about the Albion-wards flow could let us maybe put more pressure on Hatalath to talk about Albion, at least.

Though mapping Bretonnia is kind of tricky, since there's an odd number of half-AP mapping options, and recruiting the Damsels could potentially let us skip Bretonnia the way recruiting a Hag and Ice Witch let us skip Kislev.
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It depends. After all, Kislev is still an option, it's just in Other Networks. What recruiting the Witches let us do is skip spending the mapping action before it showed up as an Other Networks action.
Boney said:
If you didn't have the witches you wouldn't know it was a separate network, so it would probably be available for a mapping action. That would have revealed that it's all going around in a circle which would have put it in Other Networks, though probably with a warning from me that the Ice Witches get really touchy about outsiders poking at their magic.
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So maybe getting the Damsels on board would give us intel for free, maybe it would just convert it to an Other Networks action if it turns out that they are using their Waystones for something, maybe we'd still have to do it if we wanted the intel. We don't know.
 
Boney said:
[ ] Waystone: Mapping
Specify two of: Bretonnia, Tilea, Estalia, Araby, Badlands.
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Well, we probably don't need to map Araby, unless we decide to go all in on poking the Tomb Kings or something. And IIRC Thorek recently claimed that the network in the Badlands no longer exists, so there probably isn't much point in mapping that region.

And of course, it's likely that the Damsels keep maps of Bretonnia's network and may share it with us if we ever recruit them.

Doing Tilea and Estalia at the same time makes a lot of sense, and we should look into that eventually, but it seems pretty low priority—all we'd really be doing is checking if Los Carbos really is the exit point, and whether anything is being leached by Skavenblight.
 
Somic said:
Huh? But that would hurt us and not bother Ulthuan?
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I have to imagine Ulthuan is allowing the energy to go to Albion and not via a more direct route for a reason. Probably to keep it hidden, to make sure the Norscans and the rest of the Old World don't have them as a juicy target to plunder or claim. They probably keep a good chunk of the energies, but that's a small price to pay for a island of that size and in that location absorbing those energies and redirecting them toward Ulthuan.

Now, would I want to pull the trigger on that secret? No. The world might be better with Albion kept hidden from greedy eyes and hearts. But I do think we want Ulthuan to cooperate and that they may be more willing to do so if we had more cards in our hand.
 
picklepikkl said:
He's talking about how a specific survey of the exact locations of every Waystone and its connections is necessary as part of rollout of new Waystones. The value of the mapping actions has been in identifying general flow patterns and bottlenecks:
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Ah. So we are basically going to have to do all the mapping actions AGAIN once we have a Waystone prototype.
 
Glau said:
Ah. So we are basically going to have to do all the mapping actions AGAIN once we have a Waystone prototype.
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I'd imagine that it's part of the things covered by the AP invested in setting up the waystone, like how the Stirland tributaries action involved going over all that bit of Stirland's network in detail.
 
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Glau said:
Ah. So we are basically going to have to do all the mapping actions AGAIN once we have a Waystone prototype.
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I hope that we might be able to outsource some of the work for other nations. Like, they'd have their own relevant documents and stuff to reference, and I imagine the Damsels and the Ice Witches won't wish to give away the exact shape of their bits of the network to us. But for the Empire, we'd likely have to do the hard work ourselves, since there's no one else to delegate this matter to.
 
guyfromtheplace1 said:
Huh, neat, I just got around to finding this updated spells idea list post.

I'm pretty happy that some version of this↓ seems acceptable.

I had a similar idea at some point, but I don't remember whether I actually brought it up.
And putting a fairly lengthy effort into searching isn't bringing up any time where I actually asked Boney about my idea.

So spell ideas:
Could we do something similar to @LawsOfRobotics ideas, but with much of the complexity cut out and with just Ulgu?
(Complexity like trying to give it a discriminator so it only mentally afflicts enemies in an area for the first idea, or it needing to be a Windherder work to add in anger induction for the second idea.)

1st spell idea: A spell that just surrounds enemies with a fog that makes their senses basically useless for clear identification of whoever's moving around in the fog with them, combined with an Ulgu mental component prodding them to make a mistake and misidentify allies or nonhostiles as enemies?
Stretch goal is to have the 'induce a misidentification' component trigger very strongly in those afflicted that are feeling most uncertain about the identity of one of the unclear shapes moving in the fog near them, and for said 'misidentification' component to target whoever the afflicted is feeling most uncertain about, so it'll trigger when two formations that were at a distance close with eachother, or when messengers or disorganized troops try to move closer to an afflicted.
Mostly depends on warrior of fog trait to invent.

I'm not even sure it'd be better than lawofrobotics idea, as it could be less effective against forces in camp or forces prepared for mental trickery without a direct aggression-inducing component.
But if it works it'd be castable by other Grey Wizards, and would potentially be very useful as the enemy is marching onto a battlefield(if cast in the space in formation between two non-order groups who lack trust with eachother, or if cast on a camp in the immediate aftermath of a successful assassination)


My other spell idea is more relevant to current events.
If we go with a river magic transmission design we're going to need to check out the Great Mortis River in advance, and try to make sure we're not setting the Empire up to be vulnerable to the same kind of attack from Nagash.
So we go down to check Nehekhara out, study the river, maybe try to pry secrets/studies of the river out of the mortuary cult.
We might need yet another special dispensation to be able to study that river.
OOC we know that it may be possible to negotiate with a Tomb King, especially if it's about thwarting Nagash.
But IC we don't know that, and couldn't admit to having done such a thing if we actually did it. It'd make us seem incredibly suspicious.

We should be able to get a dispensation to study the river to stretch to sorting through stolen Nehekharan scrolls looking for anything on their own studies of what Nagash did to the river, and reading the relevant ones, but that still requires actually getting the Mummy scrolls without dying immediately, or dying afterwards as they hunt us down to get them back.
We would have to make some kind of copying or scroll/page photographing spell. Just to make it easy to get in and out, and to escape without letting them know we've successfully stolen their secret knowledge.

So 2nd spell idea. I imagine that Ulgu is slightly repelled from any text that contains meaning and isn't a rune of Ulgu.
We combine that with the MMAPP spell to create a spell that can record the positioning of where Ulgu is repelled by meaningful text.
Possibly by creating a MMAPP illusion of the rest of the scroll, and leaving the text out of said illusion.
We create a spell or enchanted item that can store a large number of these MMAPP illusion 'negatives' and we use it to photograph large amounts of text which we want to steal the content of without actually stealing the paper or papyrus.
Probably depends on our various language and paperwork traits to be invented, possibly also bibliothecagraphy if we get the final of three points required to develop it at some point during our current library construction side project.


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@Boney
Spell ideas TLDR summary/questions

1st spell idea: A spell that just surrounds enemies with a fog that makes their senses basically useless for clear identification of whoever's moving around in the fog with them, combined with an Ulgu mental component prodding them to make a mistake and misidentify allies or nonhostiles as enemies?
Stretch goal is to have the 'induce a misidentification' component trigger very strongly in those afflicted that are feeling most uncertain about the identity of one of the unclear shapes moving in the fog near them, and for said 'misidentification' component to target whoever the afflicted is feeling most uncertain about, so it'll trigger when two formations that were at a distance close with eachother, or when messengers or disorganized try to move closer to an afflicted.
Mostly depends on warrior of fog trait to invent.

1. Is this viable?

2nd spell idea, more relevant to near-future.
I imagine that Ulgu is slightly repelled from any text that contains meaning and isn't a rune of Ulgu.
We combine that with a variant on the MMAPP spell to create a spell that can record the positioning of where Ulgu is repelled by meaningful text.
Possibly by creating a MMAPP illusion of the rest of the scroll, and leaving the text out of said illusion.
We create a spell or enchanted item that can store a large number of these MMAPP illusion 'negatives' and we use it to photograph large amounts of text which we want to steal the content of without actually stealing the paper or papyrus.
Probably depends on our various language and paperwork traits to be invented, possibly also bibliothecagraphy if we get the final of three points required to develop it at some point during our current library construction side project.

2. Is this viable?
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1. There's a fine but important distinction between introducing and amplifying ambiguities, and in making someone certain of one very specific wrong thing. The 1st spell idea is on the wrong side of this distinction - you're talking about it as if there's a single 'misidentification' knob that you can crank up from "I don't know who that is" to "I am absolutely sure this is an enemy", but it doesn't work that way. You'd want Amber or Bright magic for making allies more likely to do violence to each other when uncertain.

2. Trying to make a photocopying spell out of Ulgu, or a spell to store large amounts of information, is completely barking up the wrong tree. Both are absolutely nowhere near Ulgu's conceptual territory. You might be able to get away with this for a very low-power spell, but not if you're talking about inventing e-book piracy and duplicating entire shelves worth of information.
 
Parabola said:
I have to imagine Ulthuan is allowing the energy to go to Albion and not via a more direct route for a reason. Probably to keep it hidden, to make sure the Norscans and the rest of the Old World don't have them as a juicy target to plunder or claim. They probably keep a good chunk of the energies, but that's a small price to pay for a island of that size and in that location absorbing those energies and redirecting them toward Ulthuan.

Now, would I want to pull the trigger on that secret? No. The world might be better with Albion kept hidden from greedy eyes and hearts. But I do think we want Ulthuan to cooperate and that they may be more willing to do so if we had more cards in our hand.
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Is the answer not just that feeding it west then south west is more efficient due to the directional rule, and Ulthuan isn't going to bother rerouting the Waystones if they don't need to.
 
That second one seems like something that might be possible... with runecraft. Enchantment can only do so much, and "this magic will consistently and always act in this precise way when exposed to text as long as that text contains meaning" seems like far too high a standard of reliability to ascribe to any kind of Wind based enchantment.

What if the text is some clever and ambiguous wordplay? What if some of the charcoal used in the ink happened to be burned at twilight? What if there's a typo and a particular word is "meaningless"? What if the enchantment is used on text in a language the enchanter didn't know, and is "meaningless" because of that?
 
If any of the Winds was able to do a text-copying spell, it would be Chamon, with its mythical associations with quantification and instruction/teaching (which is basically the passing on of knowledge to another person). Ulgu is more about confusion and blurring distinctions, which seems like the opposite of what we're looking for.
 
StormySky said:
If any of the Winds was able to do a text-copying spell, it would be Chamon, with its mythical associations with quantification and instruction/teaching (which is basically the passing on of knowledge to another person). Ulgu is more about confusion and blurring distinctions, which seems like the opposite of what we're looking for.
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IIRC when we asked, Boney said it would be entirely possible to make a spell that would scramble texts or books, but also that making such a spell would deserve being smited by Verena. In the hands of a Black Magister, it'd be a horrific weapon.
 
I'd try with hysh- try to use the echo of the mind that wrote it's understanding rather then an exact camera-style reproduction or a take on using the meaning inherent in the symbol strings.

I wonder if Ranald would have a spell that would let you take an object and a mock-up of the same object and make reality confused about which was which. Ranald would absolutely refuse to provide anyone with a delicious burrito, so we can even be sure this passes that test!
 
Glau said:
I'd try with hysh- try to use the echo of the mind that wrote it's understanding rather then an exact camera-style reproduction or a take on using the meaning inherent in the symbol strings.
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I could see Hysh doing a camera-like spell, because cameras already copy images via light and whatnot, but only single images and not entire books. I also can't imagine it'd be subtle enough for the original idea's intent of using it to copy books wholesale without people noticing.
 
Tie an enchanted circlet into a few move cantrips on quills, and I bet you could do a jury-rigged carbon copy machine for a scribe.
 
Parabola said:
IIRC when we asked, Boney said it would be entirely possible to make a spell that would scramble texts or books, but also that making such a spell would deserve being smited by Verena. In the hands of a Black Magister, it'd be a horrific weapon.
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Yeah, mentioned here, in regards to if we tried making a cypher spell that didn't have the unscrambling/restoration half.
Boney said:
Theoretically possible but also seems like it could easily result in being deservedly smote by Verena. The possibility of some Black Magister learning the spell and casting it in the Great Library of Altdorf is not a pleasing one.
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Parabola said:
IIRC when we asked, Boney said it would be entirely possible to make a spell that would scramble texts or books, but also that making such a spell would deserve being smited by Verena. In the hands of a Black Magister, it'd be a horrific weapon.
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Was there anything about making a book that is very difficult for anyone not the caster to read? Not that I am advocating that Mathilde start a secret diary or anything that would be published after our death or anything… or am I?
Or a book that makes it difficult for anyone who doesn't have access to ulgu to read?
 
Boney said:
2. Trying to make a photocopying spell out of Ulgu, or a spell to store large amounts of information, is completely barking up the wrong tree. Both are absolutely nowhere near Ulgu's conceptual territory. You might be able to get away with this for a very low-power spell, but not if you're talking about inventing e-book piracy and duplicating entire shelves worth of information.
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Is there some level of college favor expenditure that could be used to get some other college to make a scroll-copier/camera spell and put on an enchanted item to help spying missions?
Light College maybe?



StormySky said:
Well, not sure about Ulthuan, but knowing about the Albion-wards flow could let us maybe put more pressure on Hatalath to talk about Albion, at least.

Though mapping Bretonnia is kind of tricky, since there's an odd number of half-AP mapping options, and recruiting the Damsels could potentially let us skip Bretonnia the way recruiting a Hag and Ice Witch let us skip Kislev.
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Are we entirely sure we can skip Kislev?
The Teclis interlude mentioned an analyssi of the flow from Erengrad. It made me wonder whether the Elves in Erengrad have a secret tap in the Waystone network which the Ice Witches don't know about.
On second reread, the phrasing of the stuff about Erengrad is nowhere near as suspicious as I remember it being. But I'd still bet that the Erengrad Elves aren't just monitoring energy levels, but are also surreptitiously pulling energy out of the Kislev network to make Power stones or Orbs of Sorcery or something to ship to Ulthuan.

Parabola said:
I have to imagine Ulthuan is allowing the energy to go to Albion and not via a more direct route for a reason. Probably to keep it hidden, to make sure the Norscans and the rest of the Old World don't have them as a juicy target to plunder or claim. They probably keep a good chunk of the energies, but that's a small price to pay for a island of that size and in that location absorbing those energies and redirecting them toward Ulthuan.

Now, would I want to pull the trigger on that secret? No. The world might be better with Albion kept hidden from greedy eyes and hearts. But I do think we want Ulthuan to cooperate and that they may be more willing to do so if we had more cards in our hand.
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Yes Albion is far enough north that we would really prefer that it was able to continue to rely on obscurity as its primary defense.
But we actively need to map Albion because we need to know that the flow actually goes to Ulthuan from Albion.
Or from Bretonnia to Albion to Araby to Ulthuan.
As long as it doesn't stop in Albion.
I seem to remember something about Albion's environment being a mess because the Oghams don't drain into Ulthuani Great Vortex, but instead just dump excess magical energy into the ground.
If the Elves don't actually know/care about the side effects of magical dumping on Albion and are, for example, just dumping excess Dhar there so that they don't have to deal with as much dhar during the phase where they strip useful winds out of the energy stream, we need to know.

I also want to get a look at that 'forge of the old ones' place I see on most Albion maps. And I think I'd want to try to drag in a Truthsayer into the project. Simply because they're supposed to be focused on the Oghams and may have something important to contribute on how Humans can make a functioning Waystone. And their existence may partially explain the origin of the Belthani. I know the Jades we're working with would love that.

guyfromtheplace1 said:
If we go with a river magic transmission design we're going to need to check out the Great Mortis River in advance, and try to make sure we're not setting the Empire up to be vulnerable to the same kind of attack from Nagash.
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Expanding on this idea.
Rivers naturally attract Ghyran. Nehekhara had their own network. We know from Borek that Nehekhara had sources of knowledge that should have given them broader magical specialties than just pure Hysh and Shysh, probably having skill with all of the winds, even if those two were most popular for some reason.
Most of the maps I've seen of the Great Mortis/Vitae river give it an unnaturally long river delta. As in a quarter of a continent long.
I suspect that that is unnatural, and deliberate.
I strongly suspect that Nehekhara's network simply concentrated Ghyran into the Great Vitae River, and transported Dhar and the other seven Winds by principle of correspondence under the river in the direction of the flow of the water.
And they did this in order to use the river-ghyran to induce fertility of their lands.
If such a thing is even possible it's going to be extremely tempting for the Empire's river system, if all the fields along the rivers suddenly became more fertile I imagine we'd see a population boom, possibly even migration away from inland to the rivers in the northern provinces for a generation, to contract defensive lines against internal threats.
It'd also greatly speed the construction of the network, as all of the elector counts suddenly see value in investing in Waystones.

Even better than the hypothetical magic item forge wherever we strip the winds back out of the water because everyone would see benefit.

And almost as importantly, Boney has mentioned that this world doesn't really have fossil fuels. Which means that artificial chemical fertilizers are never going to economical. You might see an explosion in Guano fertilizers if we can find a great source for the stuff, but synthetic fertilizers are going to be too expensive. You'd need an alternate source of energy, like gigantic magical networks through the rivers, driving enhanced farming fertility.
 
guyfromtheplace1 said:
But we actively need to map Albion because we need to know that the flow actually goes to Ulthuan from Albion.
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It'd be a bit difficult at the moment, given that Mathilde considers Albion a myth.

Even seeing a stream of Magic going west from L'Anguille is more likely to provoke questions then to have her specifically guessing that the Albion myth is true.
 
guyfromtheplace1 said:
Is there some level of college favor expenditure that could be used to get some other college to make a scroll-copier/camera spell and put on an enchanted item to help spying missions?
Light College maybe?
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No. Spell creation is a very long, personal, unreliable and sometimes dangerous process. And there is no world in which I start fielding spell ideas for all eight Winds.

guyfromtheplace1 said:
Are we entirely sure we can skip Kislev?
The Teclis interlude mentioned an analyssi of the flow from Erengrad. It made me wonder whether the Elves in Erengrad have a secret tap in the Waystone network which the Ice Witches don't know about.
On second reread, the phrasing of the stuff about Erengrad is nowhere near as suspicious as I remember it being. But I'd still bet that the Erengrad Elves aren't just monitoring energy levels, but are also surreptitiously pulling energy out of the Kislev network to make Power stones or Orbs of Sorcery or something to ship to Ulthuan.
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That would be a very high-risk gambit on the part of the Elves. One of the single most important purposes of the Ice Witches as an institution is to prevent any outsider from messing with 'the pristine flows of Ice Magic'.
 
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