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I disagree. I'm not sure how Empire and Karaz Ankor measure against each other (though Mathilde has made oaths to the Empire, and currently is not a servant of Karaz Ankor, and she seems to respect her oaths), but I would put Waystone project way below both, because it's not a certainty that it will actually help the humanity in any way. It's just one project. I think she would sacrifice it in a blink if it was a choice between the project on one side and humanity, the Empire, or Karaz Ankor on the other.

How is this not a certainty? This is literally a means to keep demons from devouring the world.

As for the Karaz Ankor part:

Karaz Ankor, Advanced: You're more at home in the Karaz Ankor than the Empire you theoretically owe allegiance to. +2 Diplomacy
 
I am pretty sure Mathy's allegiance to the Empire is below the Karaz Ankor and yes I would argue that the Waystone project ranks above that since it is about saving the whole world.
The Karaz Ankor over the Empire, maybe. There haven't been many opportunities to test those two loyalties against one another besides the discussion with the Chamberlain of the Seal. And on that one we got the option to split the difference rather than be forced to pick one or the other, so naturally the entire thread piled onto the middle option. I could definitely see her picking the Dwarves if it came down to it though, yeah.

The Waystone Project above either, though? No. If the situation came up where Mathilde had to choose between the immediate and unavoidable Death of the Empire and the immediate and unavoidable Death of the Waystone Project, she'd pack her bags in Laurelorn immediately. The Waystone Project may end up saving the world. The existence of the Empire also saves the world, regularly.
 
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I wonder if Boney rolled for this... and if this is actually a high roll.

You don't get the offer to have a head of state forever indebted to you every day.
What I like about it is that it's both quite surprising but also makes perfect sense given everyone involved.
I'm going to be automatically suspicious of somebody asking me to perform an assassination, no offense. He's asking us to do something huge and offering, honestly speaking, some insulting things in compensation. (Does he really think that the deciding factor for whether Mathilde is going to do this is the Waystone project? Really?) We don't actually care that much for that compensation. What I think we do care about is making sure that what we are doing is the best thing for the Empire. And the word of one guy is just not enough for me. Yes, I like Boris better than Vladimir, even after this suggestion. But Boris is not infallible, and we don't know him very well. I think that we must make sure that he's actually sane, capable of ruling Kislev better than his father, and that there is no other route that is more beneficial and less risky for the Empire.
He's not offering us the waystone in compensation. You're reading the scene wrong. He's saying "whithout obvious benefits, it won't be done under this Tsar. My solution was to wait until he steps down/dies naturally. But with Chaos stirring, I cannot wait".

This is not about the waystones. The waystone adaptation is another facet of a long existing problematic pattern, which has become critical because of a change in circumstance. If we didn't have an action in Kiselv this turn, he would've turned up during the social vote to ask for help. And if he didn't know/trust us, he would've either asked someone else, or kicked of a civil war. Because he cannot stand by as Kislev is in danger, even if it costs him his father.
Please stop arguing against the state of my mind. If you don't actually have a counter-argument to what I wrote, I think that saying that somebody is arguing from conclusion is actually a kind of ad hominem.
Look, if this was the first round of arguments, you'd be right. But there's been a back and forth of several pages, and pretty much everything you've said has had three other people come in and argue against. And you've repeatedly shifted your arguments, while never shifting your position. So concluding you start with the position and find arguments instead of the other way round is not surprising.
It's a terrible decision to make, all the more so for how easy it is to make.
Yeah, and that this sentiment is decently common is one of my favorite things about the vote.
 
[x] Yes

Is this an action for our next turn or do we get an overwork pip and do it now?
- If 'yes' is chosen, this AP will be spent in handling that.

EDIT:
If we didn't have an action in Kiselv this turn, he would've turned up during the social vote to ask for help.
That's a hell of an assumption. I suspect that if Mathilde hadn't had an action in Kislev this turn, Boris wouldn't have made a final decision yet. The Waystone Project is indeed a part of what Boris sees as a probelm with Vladimir's rule, but I think it's the straw that broke the camel's back.
 
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Please stop arguing against the state of my mind. If you don't actually have a counter-argument to what I wrote, I think that saying that somebody is arguing from conclusion is actually a kind of ad hominem.
Then stop proving it right
I disagree. I'm not sure how Empire and Karaz Ankor measure against each other (though Mathilde has made oaths to the Empire, and currently is not a servant of Karaz Ankor, and she seems to respect her oaths), but I would put Waystone project way below both, because it's not a certainty that it will actually help the humanity in any way. It's just one project. I think she would sacrifice it in a blink if it was a choice between the project on one side and humanity, the Empire, or Karaz Ankor on the other.
We already made a speech to the emperor on the benefits of just implementing the project on top of discovering that if the waystone network goes down in one or two key areas the Old World turns into the chaos wastes!

The way stone network is what currently keeps humanity alive, its what keepts the whole planet from going down chaos's gullet.

See the argument from a conclusion. Your argument is his offer is shit because its about the waystone project (which isn't true on its face because that's not what his offer was, but assuming it was) which she doesn't consider as important as her oaths, the empire and humanity, but the only way that can be true is if a large proportion of the last bit of the quest didn't happen.

The way stone project is vital to the long term continuation of the empire, humanity and the world. Its importance cannot be overstated.

So yes, I think it fair to say that you have a conclusion and are finding a large number of ways to reach the it. if you could do that without having to doctor what we know then great.
 
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The Karaz Ankor over the Empire, maybe. There haven't been many opportunities to test those two loyalties against one another besides the discussion with the Chamberlain of the Seal. And on that one we got the option to split the difference rather than be forced to pick one or the other, so naturally the entire thread piled onto the middle option.

The Waystone Project above either, though? No. If the situation came up where Mathilde had to choose between the immediate and unavoidable Death of the Empire and the immediate and unavoidable Death of the Waystone Project, she'd pack her bags in Laurelorn immediately. The Waystone Project may end up saving the world. The existence of the Empire also saves the world, regularly.

Depends on what you mean by death of the Empire. Every human in the empire dying? Sure that would be worth giving it up for. People are no longer crowned Heir of Sigmar? I think Mathy might actually be secretly glad of that one.
 
Some taken :p this is not Amaund Motierre, the reasons why he would want to do it are pretty obvious to someone with Mathilde's knowledge. As for insulting how is it insulting? He knows we want to get the waystone project implemented, he wants this to happen and so he's offering what he hopes Mathilde wants. You like to repeat we've only met him a few times, well that goes both ways, he's working off of what he knows and his offer reflects that.

We know him, we've had time to compare his attitude with his father, we know people who know him, everyone we've met in Kislev thinks his dad does a shit job, and people who we've asked think Boris would do a better one.

In what universe would a Kislev that actually engages in foreign policy properly be bad for the empire, and again on what basis do you have that he isn't sane?

There's no point talking about the competency he can't do a worse job than his dad while having better priorities and by all accounts he is likely more competent having prepared himself for the role instead of fucking off to go hunting.

Well, it's definitely understandable why he would offer this, and maybe "insulting" is not the right word in this case, since he didn't mean it like an insult. Still, I think he judged our character as more of an assassin for hire than a person with principles. What I meant here is that we are not actually getting much out of this deal. We shouldn't even consider whether the Waystone project will be better or worse off based on this decision. What we are actually intersted in is the bigger picture. We would do it for free if we knew 100% that it would benefit Kislev and the Empire. I think that we should show this to Boris, at the very least. Currently he has a completely wrong understanding of us. And that proves that he can be wrong about some things, and might not know what other avenues of solving the problem we personally could bring. I mean, maybe all our influence is still not enough. But I don't think that anybody even stopped to think of alternative solutions, and that's definitely wrong, in my book.
 
Man, "But we'd have to spend another AP next turn on this!" would be the most hilarious reason to turn this down.

"Boris, I'd love to help you kill your dad, but I have publishing deadlines!"
 
I spent a LOOONG time catching up with this quest, but at long last my journey is at its end and so there i am. Finally able to vote for a plan and contribute to the discussion.
Welcome! You certainly found an interesting update to be the catch-up point. 24 hours earlier and you'd be choosing which name for our pokemon is sufficiently punny instead.
 
Well, it's definitely understandable why he would offer this, and maybe "insulting" is not the right word in this case, since he didn't mean it like an insult. Still, I think he judged our character as more of an assassin for hire than a person with principles. What I meant here is that we are not actually getting much out of this deal. We shouldn't even consider whether the Waystone project will be better or worse off based on this decision. What we are actually intersted in is the bigger picture. We would do it for free if we knew 100% that it would benefit Kislev and the Empire. I think that we should show this to Boris, at the very least. Currently he has a completely wrong understanding of us. And that proves that he can be wrong about some things, and might not know what other avenues of solving the problem we personally could bring. I mean, maybe all our influence is still not enough. But I don't think that anybody even stopped to think of alternative solutions, and that's definitely wrong, in my book.
No its because we have the skills he needs and because we have principles that he came to us.

He trusts us with this despite knowing so comparatively little about us because we are interested in the bigger picture.

The bigger picture which is that the world is slowly sliding down chaos's throat and we're doing something to stop that and are willing to work with everyone we can in order to prevent it.

Even after we didn't base the project in Kislev we still came back and instead of asking for a reward asked for their participation in the project so that it could be improved in order to benefit the empire and Kislev.

That, I think, made a very strong impression on him. He sees Mathilde as someone a bit more like himself, whose focus is on the best for all.

So no I think his assessment of Mathilde is bang on, she is a woman of principle, principles very similar to his own, which are fuck chaos and fuck nationalist nonsense.

She is no where near loyal enough to the empire alone to find his focus on forcing back the Za offensive.
 
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Maybe Boris would agree (and be able to push though) to something kind of mutual open borders with the Empire, so that Empire soldiers would be able to reinforce the frontline against Chaos should another war start? Maybe leverage our connections with the Dwarves in order to help Kislev create really high-quality roads so the Empire reinforcements can come very quickly?

The Empire would bleed alongside Kislev. It absolutely would not do all the bleeding for Kislev. If Kislev cannot defend itself, the Empire would rather hold the line at the Talabec than stretch their supply lines over hundreds of miles of open steppe. And even if for some reason it was willing to make such an ultimate sacrifice to prop up a foreign power, the distances involved mean that if the Empire, by some miracle, was able to train its troops to a Marian Roman Legion standard and upgrade all of its roads between its population centres and Kislev to the same, it would still take a month after the alarm is raised for the first major force to arrive in Kislev City. If Kislev cannot defend itself, then no foreign power can rescue it.

Does this also go for Baba Niedzwenka and/or the Ice Witches making deals with various Boyars? Neither of them agreed to be Mathilde's official subordinates in the Waystone Project after all. Officially they are all partners.

- If 'yes' is chosen, this AP will be spent in handling that. If 'no' is chosen, then Mathilde will try to achieve whatever limited rollout of tributaries might be possible through the Ice Witches and Baba Niedzwenka alone, with no support from Kislev's government.

No siblings or fraternal uncles either? If so, that's another reason not to go through with it. If we fail, Kislev is fucked.

Tzardom has passed from noble house to noble house many times in Kislev's history. Vladimir himself was the first Bokha on the throne.

How expensive is such magic? It seems like anything on the level of a normal ritual or a spell available to a priest of a deity whose followers are not all loyal to the Empire's institutions would be something that ends up getting used semi-frequently on the spymasters of Elector Counts. It also makes it more likely that the standing threat by the Cult of Thungni actually had to be carried out a couple of times instead of being just a hypothetical.

Necromancy and Tzeentch malarky could do it, but it would take a long-term effort by a very skilled caster. And, of course, whatever outlay of effort and resources it takes to actually get their hands on the person in question. Verenans could also do it, if they had reason to.
 
That's a hell of an assumption. I suspect that if Mathilde hadn't had an action in Kislev this turn, Boris wouldn't have made a final decision yet. The Waystone Project is indeed a part of what Boris sees as a probelm with Vladimir's rule, but I think it's the straw that broke the camel's back.
Fair enough. Let's say, he would've turned up in soonish. This turn, the next, something like that. Probably not too long, since he probably gets some reports, and the rollout has begun in Stirland.
I spent a LOOONG time catching up with this quest, but at long last my journey is at its end and so there i am. Finally able to vote for a plan and contribute to the discussion.
Just in time to argue about assassinating a foreign leader. Good timing!
 
So.

As far as we can tell, Boris is sincere in his request. He has been presented as reasonably competent, so he is likely to be more or less right about stuff if he is being a straight shooter. The current tzar doesn't seem to be much of a ruler, beyond Robert Baratheon style shenanigan, and Boris has hinted a willingness to escalate things to the level of a civil war.

Mathilde has done some seriously messed up stuff in the past and assuming that all of the information presented so far is correct, a successful murder of the tzar is likely to be less devastating for Kislev than civil war and Mathilde is likely to reap some benefits, either personally or for the Waystone project.

There are, of course, scenarios in which things go awry.

1) For one reason or another, Mathilde's murder attempt fails. Based on available information, this seems a relatively low probability scenario, although if it happens it is double plus ungood.

2) Boris is desperate enough to be invited to participate in the Everchosen and this is a play he is making in the hopes of securing a win that would put him in a position to protect Kislev. This seems deeply unlikely and would require Boris to have an utterly exceptional poker face.

3) Boris has been murdered and replaced by the Changeling, who is trying to drag Mathilde into his schemes. The Changeling is presumably good enough to fool Mathilde, but if that's what is happening, refusal to carry out the murder still means that the tzarevitch has been replaced by a Chaos daemon and that Kislev is turbo-fucked no matter what Mathilde does.

Accordingly, in the hopes that we are not in scenarios 2 or 3 (or some other possibility I've failed to account for), I guess that it is time for this:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OWdwiU1W7g
Hopefully without the little boy at the end.

[x] Yes
 
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